Did Samuel Appear To The Witch At Endor?

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Endzone

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I Samuel 28: 5-25

[sup]5[/sup]And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.
[sup]6[/sup]And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
[sup]7[/sup]Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
[sup]8[/sup]And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
[sup]9[/sup]And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
[sup]10[/sup]And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
[sup]11[/sup]Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
[sup]12[/sup]And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
[sup]13[/sup]And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
[sup]14[/sup]And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
[sup]15[/sup]And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
[sup]16[/sup]Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
[sup]17[/sup]And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
[sup]18[/sup]Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
[sup]19[/sup]Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
[sup]20[/sup]Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
[sup]21[/sup]And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore troubled, and said unto him, Behold, thine handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spakest unto me.
[sup]22[/sup]Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way.
[sup]23[/sup]But he refused, and said, I will not eat. But his servants, together with the woman, compelled him; and he hearkened unto their voice. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed.
[sup]24[/sup]And the woman had a fat calf in the house; and she hasted, and killed it, and took flour, and kneaded it, and did bake unleavened bread thereof:
[sup]25[/sup]And she brought it before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night.


I believe it was in fact Samuel that appeard to Saul. Many people believe it was a demonic spirit speaking to Saul through the woman practicing witchcraft at Endor. Samuel has intimate knowledge and details of the events that would unfold the next day. I don't believe demonic spirits have this amount of power. I believe this is something only God Himself or else His prophets can know. Samuel also had intimate knowledge of Saul's history. But if it was Samuel, it brings up a lot of amazing ideas.

Saul repeatedly disobeyed God and lost his Kingship. Saul also had become the enemy of God if it really was Samuel speaking. And Saul and his sons would also be with Samuel the next day. Does that mean they would simply be dead as was Samuel or that they would be "with Samuel" meaning you they would be in heaven as you would think surely Samuel is among the redeamed. If it was Samuel it also tends to refute this idea that a person's spirit goes immediately to be with Jesus even though their body stays in the ground. "Why have you disquieted me to bring me up". The passage doesn't say "why have you disquieted me to bring me down from heaven".

So, what do you all think? The witch was astonished that the person there was not a familiar spirit or a demon as she was expecting it to be. She seems to think that it was actually the spirit of Samuel himself. Comments?

I tend to agree with this view:
http://www.gotquestions.org/witch-of-endor.html
 

truthquest

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I Samuel 28: 5-25

[sup]5[/sup]And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.
[sup]6[/sup]And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
[sup]7[/sup]Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
[sup]8[/sup]And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
[sup]9[/sup]And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
[sup]10[/sup]And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
[sup]11[/sup]Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
[sup]12[/sup]And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
[sup]13[/sup]And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
[sup]14[/sup]And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
[sup]15[/sup]And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
[sup]16[/sup]Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
[sup]17[/sup]And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
[sup]18[/sup]Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
[sup]19[/sup]Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
[sup]20[/sup]Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
[sup]21[/sup]And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore troubled, and said unto him, Behold, thine handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spakest unto me.
[sup]22[/sup]Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way.
[sup]23[/sup]But he refused, and said, I will not eat. But his servants, together with the woman, compelled him; and he hearkened unto their voice. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed.
[sup]24[/sup]And the woman had a fat calf in the house; and she hasted, and killed it, and took flour, and kneaded it, and did bake unleavened bread thereof:
[sup]25[/sup]And she brought it before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night.


I believe it was in fact Samuel that appeard to Saul. Many people believe it was a demonic spirit speaking to Saul through the woman practicing witchcraft at Endor. Samuel has intimate knowledge and details of the events that would unfold the next day. I don't believe demonic spirits have this amount of power. I believe this is something only God Himself or else His prophets can know. Samuel also had intimate knowledge of Saul's history. But if it was Samuel, it brings up a lot of amazing ideas.

Saul repeatedly disobeyed God and lost his Kingship. Saul also had become the enemy of God if it really was Samuel speaking. And Saul and his sons would also be with Samuel the next day. Does that mean they would simply be dead as was Samuel or that they would be "with Samuel" meaning you they would be in heaven as you would think surely Samuel is among the redeamed. If it was Samuel it also tends to refute this idea that a person's spirit goes immediately to be with Jesus even though their body stays in the ground. "Why have you disquieted me to bring me up". The passage doesn't say "why have you disquieted me to bring me down from heaven".

So, what do you all think? The witch was astonished that the person there was not a familiar spirit or a demon as she was expecting it to be. She seems to think that it was actually the spirit of Samuel himself. Comments?

I tend to agree with this view:
http://www.gotquesti...h-of-endor.html

It was not Samuel. The bible makes it clear what the condition of the dead is.
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; and they have no more reward [here], for the memory of them is forgotten.Eccl. 9:5
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (the place of the dead), where you are going.Eccl. 9:10

divination-the practice of attempting to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge by occult or supernatural means.
"Now it happened, as we went to prayer, a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. The girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, "These men are the servants of the most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation." And this did she for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And he came out that very hour. But when her masters saw that their hope of profit had gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities. And they brought them to the magistrates, and said, "These men, being Jews, exceedingly trouble our city, and teach customs which are not lawful for us, being Romans, to receive or observe". Acts 16:16-21

This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.James 3:15
Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 1Tim. 4:1

Leviticus 19:31 'Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
Deut.18:[sup]12[/sup]For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and it is because of these abominable practices that the Lord your God is driving them out before you.
1 Chronicles 10:13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance,
Isaiah 8:19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?
 

Endzone

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It was not Samuel. The bible makes it clear what the condition of the dead is.
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; and they have no more reward [here], for the memory of them is forgotten.Eccl. 9:5
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (the place of the dead), where you are going.Eccl. 9:10

divination-the practice of attempting to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge by occult or supernatural means.
"Now it happened, as we went to prayer, a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. The girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, "These men are the servants of the most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation." And this did she for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And he came out that very hour. But when her masters saw that their hope of profit had gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities. And they brought them to the magistrates, and said, "These men, being Jews, exceedingly trouble our city, and teach customs which are not lawful for us, being Romans, to receive or observe". Acts 16:16-21

This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.James 3:15
Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 1Tim. 4:1

Leviticus 19:31 'Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God. Deut.18:[sup]12[/sup]For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and it is because of these abominable practices that the Lord your God is driving them out before you.
1 Chronicles 10:13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance,
Isaiah 8:19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

In verses 15-19 Saul & Samuel are having a conversation. So, the Bible is lying to us, it wasn't really Saul & Samuel? The Bible has at least 5 versus that are lies?
 

truthquest

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In verses 15-19 Saul & Samuel are having a conversation. So, the Bible is lying to us, it wasn't really Saul & Samuel? The Bible has at least 5 versus that are lies?

Demons impersonate the dead. It is one of their tricks to deceive us. That was not Samuel. I'm sure Saul believed it was, but it wasn't.
The dead praise not Jah, Nor any going down to silence. Psalm 115:17
His spirit departs, he returns to the earth. In that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 146:4
 

Endzone

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Demons impersonate the dead. It is one of their tricks to deceive us. That was not Samuel. I'm sure Saul believed it was, but it wasn't.
The dead praise not Jah, Nor any going down to silence. Psalm 115:17
His spirit departs, he returns to the earth. In that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 146:4

But the Bible doesn't say it was a demon. In fact it says the spirit medium identified the man as samuel. She was surprised that it wasn't a familiar spirit. You're interpretation is that it was a demon, but the Bible doesn't really say it was. In fact it says that Samuel and Saul had a conversation. And do you think demonic spirits are prophetic? Are they as prophetic as Samuel? "Samuel" described in perfect detail all the events that would unfold the next day that were of any significance. You really think a demon can do that or did the demon have some sort of other knowledge?
 

brionne

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But the Bible doesn't say it was a demon. In fact it says the spirit medium identified the man as samuel. She was surprised that it wasn't a familiar spirit. You're interpretation is that it was a demon, but the Bible doesn't really say it was. In fact it says that Samuel and Saul had a conversation. And do you think demonic spirits are prophetic? Are they as prophetic as Samuel? "Samuel" described in perfect detail all the events that would unfold the next day that were of any significance. You really think a demon can do that or did the demon have some sort of other knowledge?

If the spirits of the dead really do exist, why would a loving God try to prevent us from keeping in contact with them?

And why is the only way to contact 'them' thru a means that God condemns?

Gods laws are for our protection...truthquests scriptures show clearly that divination is from demonic sources and not from God so I think its safe to say that God is protecting us from the demons.
 

Endzone

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If the spirits of the dead really do exist, why would a loving God try to prevent us from keeping in contact with them?

And why is the only way to contact 'them' thru a means that God condemns?

Gods laws are for our protection...truthquests scriptures show clearly that divination is from demonic sources and not from God so I think its safe to say that God is protecting us from the demons.

Come on now Pegg. I thought you were the one who thoroughly analyzed the word of God. You seem to do it better than anyone on this board. All that seems right off the top of your head like you didn't even read the passage. Am I right?

I don't see anything in the Bible that says we can communicate with animals either. But yet, there was ONE TIME when God used a donkey to speak. He can use a donkey, but he can't use a witch?
 

brionne

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Come on now Pegg. I thought you were the one who thoroughly analyzed the word of God. You seem to do it better than anyone on this board. All that seems right off the top of your head like you didn't even read the passage. Am I right?

i have read that passage and im of the same opinion as truthquest...the scriptures he/she used are quite adequate to show that the demons certainly do have the power and the ability to fool humans.... although the apostles were not fooled by the demons because they knew Gods view on the matter.

Also, if you have the biblical view of the dead and the spirit/soul you could not possibly believe that the witch was speaking to the dead prophet because you'd know that when humans die we do not continue to exist in spirit ofrm.

And finally, in Vs 6 you are given the answer as to the source of the spirit for in Vs 6 we are told plainly that God refused to provide an answer for Saul. So if God refused to provide an answer, who else in the spirit realm was providing the answer? It wasnt God was it.

the only spirits beside God adn the holy angels are the demons and satan so the answer should be very obvious.

I don't see anything in the Bible that says we can communicate with animals either. But yet, there was ONE TIME when God used a donkey to speak. He can use a donkey, but he can't use a witch?

God does not contradict his own standards and if he used a witch to communicate then he would have been doing exactly that. Witches, mediums and fortuntellers use the power of the demons for their craft....do you really think that God would turn to his greatest enemies when he has a myriad of holy angels standing by as his messengers?
 
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evanom

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When the Bible says Samuel was talking from the grave to Saul, then this must be taken into the correct context it the literary, symbolic, figurative and philosophical forms, analized through much meditation and prayer, and studied intensively with all respective concordances to finally reach the understanding that SAMUEL WAS TALKING FROM THE GRAVE TO SAUL!!!

The Bible is so simple at times. Why do christians feel the overwhelming need to complicated it as much as possible?

As for Samuel being underground.... well that's because he had to wait for Yeshua's attonement. No Yeshua , no heaven (read about "Abraham's bosom" in LUKE(?)).
 

Adstar

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To say that the one speaking to Saul was not Samuel but a demon would mean that God made a demon a prophet of God. Because the one who spoke to Saul prophesised he and his sons would be killed in battle the next day.

While Saul did sin by using the medium. God is well able to take advantage of such an opportunity to use Samuel even in death to deliver His message to Saul.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

brionne

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To say that the one speaking to Saul was not Samuel but a demon would mean that God made a demon a prophet of God. Because the one who spoke to Saul prophesised he and his sons would be killed in battle the next day.

While Saul did sin by using the medium. God is well able to take advantage of such an opportunity to use Samuel even in death to deliver His message to Saul.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

If God was really using the spirit medium, how can you say that Saul sinned by using her?

Read verse 6 'honestly' before you assume that God was using a practice which he himself had condemned.
 
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Endzone

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If God was really using the spirit medium, how can you say that Saul sinned by using her?

Read verse 6 'honestly' before you assume that God was using a practice which he himself had condemned.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time Pegg, but I think you're trying to put God in a box--your box. The indisputable fact is that whoever was speaking to Saul, spoke the absolute truth and in a prophetic way because the events did not happen until the next day. Saul would have been better off not having this information because he could have at least gone into the battle thinking he had a fighting chance.

This guy Saul had some very good character too. Can you imagine the pressure he was under leading this huge army into a battle he thought he was doomed to lose, God Himself was against him, and even knowing he and his 3 sons would all die in the battle. Then it sure would take a lot of guts to fall on your own sword and commit suicide. I know I sure don't have the guts to do it, but I'm kind of a wimp now. I'm not a very strong man anymore. I would have probably just flat cut and run at this point if it were me. There were a lot of good points about this man,
 

Adstar

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If God was really using the spirit medium, how can you say that Saul sinned by using her?

God gave the Laws to the Jews to follow. The Laws where designed for the benafit of the humans. They where designed with men in mind. Do you think God is a human needing laws for guidance?

A Parent gives his children firm laws to only cross the road at a road crossing and only when the lights are green. But the Parent themselves cross the road where ever and when ever they like because they have the superior situational awareness on traffic and when it is safe to cross a road.

Read verse 6 'honestly' before you assume that God was using a practice which he himself had condemned.

God can use any situation as He deems fit. And i believe He used this situation for his greater glory.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

Adstar

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Hey i just remembered some more scripture.

When Jesus told the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus and told how the rich man suffering in hell talked to God about giving warning to his brothers and how God told him that His brothers had scripture to warn them. Was God not contacting the dead? It could be said that God was acting as a medium talking to the dead. Clearly what is unlawful for us is not unlawful for God. So clearly the Law about not using a medium and seeking to contact the dead is a law designed for men not for God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I'm not trying to give you a hard time Pegg, but I think you're trying to put God in a box--your box. The indisputable fact is that whoever was speaking to Saul, spoke the absolute truth and in a prophetic way because the events did not happen until the next day. Saul would have been better off not having this information because he could have at least gone into the battle thinking he had a fighting chance.

This guy Saul had some very good character too. Can you imagine the pressure he was under leading this huge army into a battle he thought he was doomed to lose, God Himself was against him, and even knowing he and his 3 sons would all die in the battle. Then it sure would take a lot of guts to fall on your own sword and commit suicide. I know I sure don't have the guts to do it, but I'm kind of a wimp now. I'm not a very strong man anymore. I would have probably just flat cut and run at this point if it were me. There were a lot of good points about this man,

I guess all men have some good points. But the point of scripture is no man has enough good points. If Saul had followed the warnings of Samuel in his life and had been prepared to humble himself before God, He would never have come to that point of seeing his sons die and murdering himself, David would have remained a insignificant Shepard boy and would never have been king.

David himself had good points and we know from scripture he had some real bad points, but the reason David did not end up in a situation like Saul was because when David fell short and was convicted of his wrongdoing he repented and humbled himself before God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

truthquest

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Saul's experience with the witch at Endor is obviously Satanic. It serves as a warning to us; especially as in the case with Saul; we should never be deceived into believing that anyone who practices divination can claim that God uses them to give us messages and information. God considers this an abomination. It should be crystal clear to Christians what this means and the danger involved in believing this and it would be wise for us to pay attention and obey God in this rather than man.

The following is the most accurate information I have found on this so far; which I found today while researching.

Isaiah 8:19
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Isaiah reveals that spirits and powers of the dark world have the ability to peep into our affairs, and to observe the ongoings of things all around us, and therefore to know much about us that we would only expect someone personally close to us to know about. God says that by seeking after wizards and witches, one is demonstrating that they are placing more faith in the false gods of this world than in the one true God. In Luke 20:38, God further reveals that he is a God of the living, and not a god of the dead.
According to the Law of Moses, anyone who professed to be a medium or a channel of communication to the spirit world was to be put to death by stoning, and this was the judgment prescribed by Samuel. A medium was considered a necromancer, or communicator of the dead. The practice of being a necromancer was the craft or practice for extracting information of guidance from a Pagan god. For this reason alone, the spirit of Samuel conjured up by the witch of Endor should be viewed with great skepticism. The Bible explicitly teaches against expecting any legitimate contact with the dead, for its participation can only serve the purposes of Satan.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

The witch described Samuel�s appearance to Saul as being an old man covered in a mantle. A mantle was a type of robe, or coat for the upper portion of the body. There was something about this mantle that convinced Saul that the apparition was indeed Samuel.


It may be that Saul remembered that Samuel�s mantle had become torn in a prior meeting between himself and Samuel. Samuel informed Saul, that like the renting of his mantle, so had God rented the kingdom of Israel from Saul. Perhaps the torn mantle was a sign that deceived Saul into perceiving that the apparition was none other than the real Samuel.

You will notice that in verse 15 of chapter 28 of I Samuel that the apparition appearing as Samuel addresses Saul in this manner; �why has thou disquieted me, to bring me up?, and, why then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is thine enemy?� One can almost hear the harsh anger intoned by these remarks directed towards Saul. It is as if the apparition is immediately and intentionally trying to intimidate Saul. By intoning this strong invective against Saul, the apparition has placed Saul on the defensive, and shown that he has super-knowledge about Saul�s dilemma. This insidious demonic game-mansip was never Samuel�s reaction and attitude towards Saul while Samuel was alive. Samuel was always respectful of Saul and demonstrated immense love for Saul, even after the Lord had withdrawn his favor from Saul. (1 Samuel 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.)

I Samuel 15:26-28 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou.

It is often assumed that the apparition conjured up by the witch of Endor was the real Samuel, allowed by God to emerge on the scene when the witch called him up. Most scholars that follow this line of interpretation feel that the fact that the apparition correctly predicted Saul�s defeat and his son�s deaths verifies that the apparition was from God. But this theory seems to fly directly in the face of the Lord�s own instructions.

Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

How then was the apparition able to correctly predict the defeat of Israel at the hands of the Philistines, the deaths of Saul and his son�s just a mere day after the conjured visit of the apparition by the witch at Endor?
It should be noted that the Lord had already announced his abandonment of Saul because of his utter disobedience in chapter 15, and before Samuel had died, and had announced that his kingdom would be taken away from him.

The spirit that appeared only impersonated Samuel, a view based on the following:Saul never personally saw Samuel, he only could take the witch�s word that it was him. Such a demon would be well acquainted with the deceased human being and would be able to imitate (impersonate) him, deceiving both the witch and the one desiring communication with him.God�s Word is clear. All forms of witchcraft and necromancy (to conjure up the dead) are abominable to God. When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

It is inconceivable that God would resort to such an abominable practice, thereby granting credibility to it, in order to communicate with man. This would especially apply to the case at hand, since God had already taken the position of being incommunicado with King Saul.

And most revealing is an exegetical understanding of 1 Chronicles 10:13 & 14, which in the King James Version reads as follows: �So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.� The words �counsel� and �one that had� were added by the translators for a �better understanding� of verse 13, but appropriate could have been left out. If so, the verses would state: So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking of a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
These verses then make it clear that Saul was speaking to a �familiar spirit� (demon) and not to God.

King Saul did not receive any new information. Samuel, before his death, had already pronounced the death, the destruction, and the rejection of Saul (1 Samuel 15), events of which Satan would have been well aware of and could easily have used in his communication with Saul.

It is unfortunate that there are Christians today who attempt to use this passage in order to justify witchcraft, mediums, spiritualists, and the like. All are an abomination to God and must be shunned by the Christian community. This use of the passage should be evidence enough to any Christian that Saul�s experience with the witch at Endor was purely Satanic.
http://focusonjerusa...itchofEndor.htm
 

Endzone

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May 7, 2010
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Hey i just remembered some more scripture.

When Jesus told the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus and told how the rich man suffering in hell talked to God about giving warning to his brothers and how God told him that His brothers had scripture to warn them. Was God not contacting the dead? It could be said that God was acting as a medium talking to the dead. Clearly what is unlawful for us is not unlawful for God. So clearly the Law about not using a medium and seeking to contact the dead is a law designed for men not for God.

That's a good point. I was thinking the same thing myself. And since so many people on here believe that your spirit goes immediately to be with Jesus or else off to perdition, they why is it such a shock that conversation with these people in certain situations is possible? I would never advocate any Christian going to see a fortune teller or anybody working by the power of the demonic like that--Never! I would not do it under any circumstances. And Saul would have been better off not to have gone to this lady. Really, he would have been better off not knowing the terrible news. But the Bible does say in versus 15-19 that Saul and Samuel are speaking to each other. Is the Bible full of crap? Does the Bible really not mean what it says? Some of you on here don't believe that hell is a place without end even though the Bible plainly tells us it is. You want to believe what you want to believe. You don't care what the revealed word of God says.

So, God spoke through a donkey and Jesus spoke to the beggar Lazarus and the rich man (both of whom were already dead and in their eternal destinies) but Samuel can't speak to Saul because a witch was involved. Doesn't seem very consistent.

Next question:

Saul was clearly anointed by God. That fact is indisputable. But, Saul lost the Lord's anointing (for the most part because he did prophesy even towards the end of his life) and was afflicted by demonic spirits. Saul did not seem to repent either or else he just didn't now how. Is Saul among the redeamed? Will he be in heaven or hell? What did Samuel mean when he said, "and you shall be with me"?
 

brionne

Active Member
May 31, 2010
830
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Australia
God gave the Laws to the Jews to follow. The Laws where designed for the benafit of the humans.

God can use any situation as He deems fit. And i believe He used this situation for his greater glory.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Firstly, God does not use witches and demons to bring himself glory he uses righteousness, justice, power and love.

and secondly, I agree that the laws given to mankind are for our benefit... so the laws to stay away from practicers of magic and divination and spirit mediums are also for our benefit, yes?

Deut 18:9-10, 11-13 is Gods law to stay away from such practices. Look closely at Deut 18:12 and tell me what you see? Do you really think that God would use a practice that he finds so repulsive?

What does Galatians 5:19-20 tell you? Is God really going to make sorcery one of his own practices? Can God or the holy spirit really become a practicer of the 'flesh'?

if you think that then you really have not come to know God very well.

Firstly, God does not use witches and demons to bring himself glory he uses righteousness, justice, power and love.

and secondly, I agree that the laws given to mankind are for our benefit... so the laws to stay away from practicers of magic and divination and spirit mediums are also for our benefit, yes?

Deut 18:9-10, 11-13 is Gods law to stay away from such practices. Look closely at Deut 18:12 and tell me what you see? Do you really think that God would use a practice that he finds so repulsive?

What does Galatians 5:19-20 tell you? Is God really going to make sorcery one of his own practices? Can God or the holy spirit really become a practicer of the 'flesh'?

if you think that then you really have not come to know God very well.
 
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brionne

Active Member
May 31, 2010
830
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Australia
That's a good point. I was thinking the same thing myself. And since so many people on here believe that your spirit goes immediately to be with Jesus or else off to perdition, they why is it such a shock that conversation with these people in certain situations is possible? I would never advocate any Christian going to see a fortune teller or anybody working by the power of the demonic like that--Never! I would not do it under any circumstances. And Saul would have been better off not to have gone to this lady. Really, he would have been better off not knowing the terrible news. But the Bible does say in versus 15-19 that Saul and Samuel are speaking to each other. Is the Bible full of crap? Does the Bible really not mean what it says? Some of you on here don't believe that hell is a place without end even though the Bible plainly tells us it is. You want to believe what you want to believe. You don't care what the revealed word of God says.


Its not a good point at all for the reason that jesus was not giving an account of an actual incident, he was telling a story in order to illustrate a point about spirituality. There was no literal rich man and lazarus...they were ficticous characters.

The bible was truthfull when it said in Vs 6 that 'God refused to provide an answer to Saul' It seems you are ignoring that part of the account in order to promote your idea that God used a witch to give an answer to Saul.

The sad thing is that you think hell/hades/sheol is also a literal place of fiery torment when in fact it is nothing more then a burial plot. Yes hell is full of the dead....go to a graveyard and you can stand in the midst of hell and see it for yourself.


My advice to you is not to trust in english translations of the hebrew and greek scriptures but find out more about the hebrew and greek words in order to understand the english bible. Did you know that in the Hebrew Scriptures the english word “hell” is translated from the Hebrew word sheol & hades? Sheol & Hades both mean the 'grave'...the spot in the ground into which our dead corpse is buried.

In the older King James Versions they translated sheol as hell, grave and pit. The Douay Version also translates it as hell in most occurances but it also translates it as 'pit' and 'death' And Hades is always translated as hell in both bibles. Dont trust theology over the truth.
 
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brionne

Active Member
May 31, 2010
830
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Here is a picture of hell just to be sure you understand what i am talking about

9905_08_4---Graveyard_web.jpg


And this place of hell is not the end of the line as some christians would have us believe. It is only a 'resting place' until people are brought out of the graves. And when death is no more then we wont see them ever again.

Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.”
 
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