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Did Samuel Appear To The Witch At Endor?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Endzone, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. Endzone

    Endzone New Member

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    Well Pegg all I can say is you have some really wacko theology there. That's just my little ole humble opinion of course.
     
  2. Grat

    Grat New Member

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    First I'd like to thank all of the contributors for their fascinating posts.
    Secondly I’d like to weigh in with a few observations.
    From my understanding of God and grasp of the scriptures:
    1. You should never confuse what God has or has not done with anyone else with what He wants to do or not do with you. The Bible is full of recorded incidents of God interfacing with His children. The only hard and fast rules you can come up with from that is that God will not be restrained, but will always act in a way that He knows is consistent with Himself and the accomplish His aims.
    2. God prohibited the practice of divination, etc. He does not anywhere state that it is false, just that we are not to follow/seek it. I am NOT saying it’s reliable or correct, I’m just saying that I can find no incident of God saying that it isn’t a real interaction between man and spiritual forces. Of course (given its source) I would not rely on it, but since God says not to I shouldn’t be anyway!
    3. Saul sinned because he did what God said he wasn’t to do. It wasn’t the first or last time that Saul did this – he was notorious for doing it. God, in grace allowed something to happen that he would have preferred not to.
    3. I am surprised that no one had brought up the mount of transfiguration. Unlike the rich man and Lazarus, this is no parable. Here we have the dead interacting in real time with the living. Also the martyrs in the Book of Rev under the throne – which is pre judgement.
    4. It is difficult to be dogmatic about timelines when dealing with this whole topic, because we are firmly stuck inside time. I know I fail miserably at trying to understand a God who sits outside of time (having created time). If the dead are in some “limbo”, then who are the great cloud of witnesses that surround us? Sure, we can limit that to other heavenly beings, but are we then taking scripture as it stands or interpreting it based on our limited understanding? Not to mention the theological summersaults that are then required to make sense of Jesus “preaching/proclaiming to the spirits” in 1 Peter 3 and the incident recorded in Mathew 27 of a number of dead saints taking a stroll after Jesus dies.
    Lastly, what do I believe? I personally believe that the Witch on Endor did raise Samuel’s spirit, which did nearly give her heart failure. Samuel probably didn’t really tell Saul anything he probably didn’t already know in his heart.
     
  3. Paul

    Paul Member

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    ez, you are certainly not the one to call some one elses Theology wacko.
     
  4. pastorlesofm

    pastorlesofm Community Guide

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    Endzone we love you in Jesus Name, but wacko doesn't get it at all here in CB I'm sure , the Love of Jesus does, nothing short of that.
     
  5. evanom

    evanom New Member

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    Agreed.
     
  6. Adstar

    Adstar New Member

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    I believe what the scriptures say. When it says Samiel talked to Saul through the medium then He did and when Samuel gave a prophecy of Saul’s death the following day and it came true, it confirms that the one who talked with Saul was Samuel a Prophet of God.

    If you deny the Words of Scripture that’s your decision. Judge me as you like and say i do not know God. I will hand over judgement of you to The God of Abraham. Let Him judge who knows Whom.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  7. Adstar

    Adstar New Member

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    Agreed.

    Agreed.

    I believe God chose to use a situation that was against His will.

    Good scripture. :) Your example is far better than mine.


    The thoughts i have on this is that God intervened during the séance and took control of it, causing Samuel to be brought up. So when you say that the "Witch on Endor" who raised Samuel's spirit i have a feeling that you could be wrong. I believe if it had been all left up to the medium then anything could have come up. I doubt God would have allowed Samuel to come up if it was all the work of the medium. So i personally would not give glory to the medium of Endor by saying that she brought Samuel up.

    Just a few thoughts. And thank you for sharing yours with us.



    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  8. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    im glad you say you believe the scriptures because they really are the authority, not us.

    So do you also believe these verses about the condition of the dead?

    Psalm 146:3-4 'spirit goes out and thoughts perish' so the dead prophet would not have been able to give any information to anyone.
    Ecclesiastes 9:5 'the dead are conscious of nothing' so its impossible that Samuel would have been able to respond
    Ecclesiastes 9:10 'there is no knowledge in sheol' so Samuel would know nothing about what would happen to Saul.
    Genesis 3:19 'to dust you will return'...samuel did not exist in spirit form, he became as dust just as genesis says
    Psalm 90:3 'man goes back to crushed matter' he doesnt live in any other form
    Ecclesiastes 3:20 'all return to dust' including the prophet Samuel
    Job 34:15 'all flesh expire and return to dust'

    how many times does God need to say it before people will believe it?
     
  9. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    You believe the scriptures except for this part?

    1Samuel 28:6
     
  10. Grat

    Grat New Member

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    Context, people, context!
    1 Samual 28:6 is a verse in time. Refereing to a span of time that Saul tried all sorts of things to get God's attention - even though God had already laid things out to him before this whole mess arose. You cannot use this verse to prove something that happened AFTER this verse applies did or didn't happen.
     
  11. Grat

    Grat New Member

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    Well Pegg,
    how many times indeed does God have to say it.
    Mark 9:2-13 (mount of transfiguration)
    Revelation 6:9-10 (martyrs)
    Isaiah 14:9-10 (dead kings rising up of their thrones in Sheol to welcome the newcomer)
    Ezek 32:21 (ditto)
    Deuteronomy 32:22 (bit of a push - but indicates God interacting with Sheol)
    Jonah 2:2 (figurative)
    Psalm 18:5 (ditto)
    Psalm 30:3 (ditto)
    Psalm 116:3 (ditto)
    Psalm 139:8 (ditto)

    And of course Luke 23:43 (Thief on the cross)
     
  12. truthquest

    truthquest Active Member

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  13. truthquest

    truthquest Active Member

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  14. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    the transfiguration was a vision...it wasnt people rising from the grave
    Revelation was also a vision...there were no people crying out from their graves literally speaking.
    Isaiah 14 is a prophetic warning to the king of babylon....so its not literal once again but a warning of what was to come.
    Ezekiel 32 is another prophetic warning to the king of Assyria...its again using descriptive language and not describing an acutal event but warning the king of what is to come.
    Deut 32 says nothing about the dead in sheol...it says Gods anger will blaze from the mountain tops to the bottom of sheol. Nothing more then descriptive language.
    Jonah 2 has nothing to do with death...Jonah was alive in the belly of the fish. Vs 1 says Jonah prayed to God to release him, its not figurative...this one was an actual event. I guess jonah knew he could die in the fish if God didnt get him out so he called the belly of the fish 'sheol' ....because it could have become his grave.

    All the Psalms you mention were written by David 'while he was alive' when he was being hunted by his enemies...it is poetic language and should not be taken literally. When David says God pulled him up from Sheol, he is talking about all the times that God saved David from the hand of his enemies.

    And finally, to the thief on the stake, Jesus told him that the man would be in paradise. That is an earthly place, not a heavenly one. Jesus had earlier told his apostles of the resurrection hope in which all those who die (including the wicked such as the criminal on the stake) would be resurrected to life on earth. John 5:28
    That man will fall into that category like the millions of others who will also be resurrected into the same paradise.




    there is no getting around the fact that the 'dead are conscious of nothing' and that when mankind dies, we return to dust until God remembers us and awakens us from death thru the resurrection. Samuel had died and had returned to dust...he will not exist again until God resurrects him.
     
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  15. Paul

    Paul Member

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    Pegg that is just not true, it's false. The verses you are using are all concerning the flesh body. It dies and returns to the ground but not so the soul. It returns to the Father, GOD, Who gave it in the first place.
     
  16. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    I enter this thread with only a caution, since every opinion that has ever been enlisted to promote spiritism is found in it. There is no concord or fellowship between God and falsehood. God uses the falsehoods that are created to contrast His righteous, unswerving nature. To ascribe to God the spirit manifestation of Samuel with Saul is a grave error. You do not know God the Father as you should. Tomfoolery is the folly of men, not God. And to even consider God as calling forth the dead without His Sons' presence is ignorance and undermines God's word.

    Even those who may be waffling on this one, beware... You are circling the outskirts of a dominion that seeks to make shipwreck those of the faith, the elect of God.

    Everything that Saul hears and sees is through the woman. There are no other apparitions mentioned. It could be inferred by the dialogue which takes place, but not by the evidence. That God would place a counterfeit before Saul is not unreasonable, and even within the order of God's dealings with men. The Hand that formed the light also formed the crooked serpent with much travail. The usefulness of the enemy to show forth God's glory is the whole reason for his creation. Should the planting of the faith-killer or his underling in this affair be so much out of line that we would prefer to believe God Himself deceives?

    fivesense

    Bless you Pegg and Truthquest for remaining sober and vigilant.
     
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  17. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    its the 'spirit' that returns to God, not the soul. Eccl 12:7
    The spirit (Hebrew ru′ach) is our breath...its the breath of life that God breathed into Adam so that he became alive. When our breath leaves us it is said to return to God because its what gives 'life'....so its our life that returns to God...nothing else.


    The nephesh/soul is the living person...it never was a separate part of the living person. When God created Adam it says that Adam became a living soul. The answer is in the hebrew word itself...what does Nephesh (translated as soul) mean?

    Did you know that back in the 60's the Jewish Publication Society of America took out the word 'soul' from the english Torah because they said that the english meaning of soul was nothing like the hebrew understanding of it. The new york times of Oct 12 1962 ran an article which stated “the Hebrew word in question here is ‘Nefesh.’ Other translators have interpreted it to mean ‘soul,’ which is completely inaccurate. The Bible does not say we have a soul. ‘Nefesh’ is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being.”

    So if you go back to the original language in which the bible was written in you will hopefully see that 'soul' is in fact the living person. Its what Adam became when he had life breathed into him.

    Its what we say when we want our lives to be saved, SOS means 'save our souls'
     
  18. Adstar

    Adstar New Member

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    God never made it known to Saul the day he would die. Read the scriptures again. And read what Samuel said to Saul. He never made this prophecy in his life.



    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  19. Grat

    Grat New Member

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    Pegg, I'm sorry but your arguments don’t really carry any weight. The terms you use to dismiss these verses are basically the same terms I could use to dismiss all of your verses. They are all poetic, phrophetic or, as Paul (the contributor, not the Apostle) pointed out, concerning the body. You cannot get around the fact thast Jesus said to the thief before the sun has set today. I’m going to finish with Jesus’ own words - Matthew 22:32.
     
  20. truthquest

    truthquest Active Member

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    This so-called prophecy of "Samuel" relates basically the same information found at I Samuel 15:26-28 ; except for the added "tomorrow". And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou.

    Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me...." 1Sam. 28:19
    Taking into account what happened in Chapters 28-31, Saul did not die until three or four more days had passed. So this added "tomorrow" by this demon at Endor was incorrect. And regarding the death of Saul's sons, one of his sons lived on after this. (2Sam. 2:8,10,12)
     
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