SinSinSin

[marks]

is to counter sinless perfectionism.

This is the other side of the "why do we obsess over sin?" coin.

We make our identification with either our self-perception of sinfulness, or with sinlessness. I say we are better off identifying with Christ, dead to the whole sin issue. Only that we desire to avoid sin because it takes us away from being fruitful in Christ.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

However, the notion that keeping commandments is what will gain you salvation, or that not keeping commandments will lose salvation, this replace grace through faith with works, doesn't it?

According to Paul in Galatians, this is "falled from grace".

Much love!

Wrong!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

One time my Bible study group was about to go through 1 & 2 Peter. Before starting, though, we combed through the Bible for every last reference to Peter, and looked at them all one night. It was a long study, but when we were done, I had a much different perception of Peter from the foot-in-mouth bumbler I've heard from so many pulpits.

I know it's pretty popular to bag on the guy, but if I could be just a fraction of the man he was . . .

Much love!

Ahhh . . . I see.

 

[ChristisGod]

This is the other side of the "why do we obsess over sin?" coin.

We make our identification with either our self-perception of sinfulness, or with sinlessness. I say we are better off identifying with Christ, dead to the whole sin issue. Only that we desire to avoid sin because it takes us away from being fruitful in Christ.

Much love!

Agreed

 

[MattMooradian]

Aside from the theological question, what does that look like in life?

On the one hand, I can be constantly self-examining my behavior to see if there is anything I disapprove of, and setting myself to fix that. I don't argue against that per se,

On the other hand, I can be constantly meditating on God's Word, praying to God, speaking with others about Him, and trusting that He will guide me through things He is changing in me.

Ultimately, I cannot sanctify myself. I cannot even walk on my own merits (God can strike me lame one second before I decide to walk). But, I do make intentions to walk & they have been very successful, historically.
IMO, your first alternative is far more productive. The second alternative can describe such people as Jimmy Swaggart and the son of that famous preacher who was recently found to be sexually immoral. These types of people engage in long hours of prayer, meditating on God's word and speaking to others about God. Yet, they engage in systematic, long term sinful behaviors. I know of less famous Christians who read the Bible every day and have only friends who are church-goers. Nevertheless, they are completely unaware of their sinfulness or they make excuses for their sinfulness.
The first alternative is productive, the second is futility. I can pray and talk about walking, but until I stand up with the intention to walk, I will not walk. Constant self-examination may be a bit over the top, but I should be working on something. For instance, I have a serious lack of gentleness in my speech; I am currently praying about this, second guessing my speech patterns, and reworking my words to be more gentle. I thank God every evening for my progress, I confess my shortcomings regarding gentleness at the end of each day, and I awake each morning to request God's assistance in my endeavor to be more gentle during the coming day. Just talking to Christians will not lead to gentleness; focused energy and intentions, with God's assistance, will result in me becoming more and more gentle.

 

[justbyfaith]

I've heard it said once that, Church is for believers, not unbelievers. Yes, Christians who are truly born again already know that living in sin is wrong...preaching to the choir??

There are Christians who are not born again (people who walk into a church every Sunday but are not saved).

Ought not the preaching to identify them as sinners and ought not the law be preached as a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ?

By the law is the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20) and the law has the power to convert a soul (Psalms 19:7 (kjv)) by showing that person that they are a sinner in need of the Saviour.

If someone is not walking consistently according to the Spirit, the law will call them out as sinners who have not yet availed themselves of the power of the Holy Spirit to set people free from the power of sin.

One can only have the Spirit if they first have faith in Jesus and what He did for them on the Cross.

They must be forgiven in order to receive the Spirit of the living God come to dwell on the inside of them.

So, when it comes to sanctification, we cannot be sanctified apart from being forgiven.

If a person is not sanctified in the sense that they have begun to walk consistently according to the Spirit, they ought to question as to whether or not they are born again (2 Corinthians 13:5).

Being born again, and being forgiven, go hand in hand.

I think that the following passage may indeed be hyperbole; but if it is, it is exaggerating in order to make the point that if anyone is truly born again, there will be a radical change of life...a change in direction away from sin.

1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[marks]

Ultimately, I cannot sanctify myself. I cannot even walk on my own merits (God can strike me lame one second before I decide to walk). But, I do make intentions to walk & they have been very successful, historically.
IMO, your first alternative is far more productive. The second alternative can describe such people as Jimmy Swaggart and the son of that famous preacher who was recently found to be sexually immoral. These types of people engage in long hours of prayer, meditating on God's word and speaking to others about God. Yet, they engage in systematic, long term sinful behaviors. I know of less famous Christians who read the Bible every day and have only friends who are church-goers. Nevertheless, they are completely unaware of their sinfulness or they make excuses for their sinfulness.
The first alternative is productive, the second is futility. I can pray and talk about walking, but until I stand up with the intention to walk, I will not walk. Constant self-examination may be a bit over the top, but I should be working on something. For instance, I have a serious lack of gentleness in my speech; I am currently praying about this, second guessing my speech patterns, and reworking my words to be more gentle. I thank God every evening for my progress, I confess my shortcomings regarding gentleness at the end of each day, and I awake each morning to request God's assistance in my endeavor to be more gentle during the coming day. Just talking to Christians will not lead to gentleness; focused energy and intentions, with God's assistance, will result in me becoming more and more gentle.

I'm more speaking to the extremes shown by some on this forum, others I know IRL.

My experience is that God will bring things to mind, that He is addressing in my life, and in this I follow His lead rather than my own "over-self-examination". Very true, and I don't want to say this wrong, we need to be self-aware. I think this is the primary issue with the ones who claim no sin. When I have occasion to discuss this with them, I quickly find out they tend to have a "short list" of sins, the 10 commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, like that.

My understanding of sin is anything that's not of faith, and is therefore of the flesh. And I've yet to meet a single person who claims sinlessness (or allude to it - some prefer innuendo to imply they are sinless) who does not go on to demonstrate the works of the flesh, usually in some baseless accusation or negative charaterization, sometimes with outright lies.

I think of Acts 2:42, they continued in the breaking of bread, and the doctrine of the Apostles, and prayer, and fellowship.

Personally, I've never found victory over sin by gritting my teeth and holding on to my chair. But I have found victory over sin by remembering I'm forgiven, and that my Faithful Creator loves me, and is here with me, and will never ever leave me!

Reading the Bible, meditation on the Bible, praying to God, fellowshipping with other Christians, all of these things help to keep these truths in my mind, not to mention equipping me, and providing opportunity to serve.

Much love!

 

[marks]

focused energy and intentions, with God's assistance, will result in me becoming more and more gentle.

This makes me think of, Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works within you both to will and to do what pleasees Him.

God is bringing gentleness to your mind, training you in it, and you are working yourself as He is working inside you. But what if God wanted to work on your being more gentle, and you think you need to work on your __________ instead?

This passage, work out your salvation, God works in you, the work you do, katergadzomai, is more to perform a task. God works, this is ergon, to do a work. We are to perform the work that God is doing. Should we try to perform works God isn't doing?

Again, I'm talking extremes here. Life is messy.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

This makes me think of, Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works within you both to will and to do what pleasees Him.

God is bringing gentleness to your mind, training you in it, and you are working yourself as He is working inside you. But what if God wanted to work on your being more gentle, and you think you need to work on your __________ instead?

This passage, work out your salvation, God works in you, the work you do, katergadzomai, is more to perform a task. God works, this is ergon, to do a work. We are to perform the work that God is doing. Should we try to perform works God isn't doing?

Again, I'm talking extremes here. Life is messy.

Much love!

If the Lord brought it to my attention that I have been antagonistic towards people, should I seek to correct that behaviour myself or should I sit back and wait for God to do it?

Do you think that maybe the Lord brought it to my attention so that I could deal with the problem in my behaviour?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Keep reading, and it says that no one will be justified by works of law

Of course not.

But if they don’t want to be turned away by the Lord in that day when he comes, they better have been a faithful obedient servant or else into the fire they’ll go because they did nothing with that justification talent God gave them as a free gift.

They buried it in the sand.

 

[marks]

Of course not.

But if they don’t want to be turned away by the Lord in that day when he comes, they better have been a faithful obedient servant or else into the fire they’ll go because they did nothing with that justification talent God gave them as a free gift.

They buried it in the sand.

It's not just that you've been given something, you've been changed into another person, someone who is in God's family instead of Adam's family.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Of course not.

But if they don’t want to be turned away by the Lord in that day when he comes, they better have been a faithful obedient servant or else into the fire they’ll go because they did nothing with that justification talent God gave them as a free gift.

They buried it in the sand.

And we never can prove the delights of His love, until all on the altar we lay . . .

 

[BarneyFife]

OSAS is the root of my harshness. It is a very dangerous doctrine of demons. I care, just like Paul did in 1 Corinthians 1. Do you think turning someone over the Satan is singing them lullabies? Not wanting to talk about sin, and saying things like obsession with sin, is a clue that they do not know why Jesus came and how our sin nature separated us from God in the first place. We can't keep it; we MUST be born again to stop the cause of the separation. It is God who is obsessed with sin. He can't stand it. Turning to false teachers is the trap that can cause many to stay out of the Kingdom of Heaven who go to church every week! If you think I was harsh, I think passionate would be better as I don't want to see anyone stay damned. It is for their good, not evil. Just as the wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy. I understand that. If you don't like that in me, I understand that too.

We'll call it passionate, then. You know me. I'm no fan of cheap grace. Not that I think @marks is, either. Positivity is his passion, I think. I know lots of sincere Christians in the OSAS camp who don't believe in justification without sanctification. I think false doctrine can keep folks out of the Kingdom of God, but I don't think it always does. We just don't know everything we think we do. The Bible says so.

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (John 16:12)

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

And then of course there's my signature verse.

 

[marks]

I'm no fan of cheap grace.

Cheap grace, or a very offensive term to me - "greasy grace" as if grace would be slimy? - is an empty accusation slung as an insult against those who believe in a full forgiveness, a full reconciliation.

Sure. Make me look like, I don't care if I sin! It's all forgiven!

It's to misrepresent someone's view for the sake of impugning it. In other words, a straw man, and a false witness.

Much love!

 

[Triumph1300]

Shouldn't we be more mature, have greater understanding than we did in years past?

Not when you brag about it.
The Bible has a lot to say about "pride".
Specially when used to talk down on people in order to back up your doctrine.

 

[CharismaticLady]

We'll call it passionate, then. You know me. I'm no fan of cheap grace. Not that I think @marks is, either. Positivity is his passion, I think. I know lots of sincere Christians in the OSAS camp who don't believe in justification without sanctification. I think false doctrine can keep folks out of the Kingdom of God, but I don't think it always does. We just don't know everything we think we do. The Bible says so.

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (John 16:12)

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

And then of course there's my signature verse.

I don't care for cheap grace either, and it stems from a wrong definition of grace, and the foundation of false doctrine.

 

[CharismaticLady]

,,

 

[justbyfaith]

Cheap grace, or a very offensive term to me - "greasy grace" as if grace would be slimy? - is an empty accusation slung as an insult against those who believe in a full forgiveness, a full reconciliation.

Sure. Make me look like, I don't care if I sin! It's all forgiven!

It's to misrepresent someone's view for the sake of impugning it. In other words, a straw man, and a false witness.

Much love!

Just like "sinless perfection" is a misnomer intended to produce a straw man (and a false witness) that is easily toppled by 1 John 1:8...

When the doctrine of entire sanctification actually does not teach that sin is eradicated from the body (i.e. we become sinless) but rather that it is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

 

[BarneyFife]

an insult against those who believe in a full forgiveness, a full reconciliation.

How is this not a straw man?
As if those in disagreement with eternal security believe in the forgiveness of only some sins for those who will walk the streets of gold.

 

[BarneyFife]

When the doctrine of entire sanctification actually does not teach that sin is eradicated from the body (i.e. we become sinless) but rather that it is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

Isn't this slightly doubletalky? What does "it no longer has any say over our behaviour" even mean?