Do Works Really Indicate Faith?

[RichardBurger]

Do works really indicate faith?

In what way do they indicate faith?

In what do they indicate faith?

Is it possible that Jesus does not know if a person has faith in Him or not?

 

[Foreigner]

Do works really indicate faith?

In what way do they indicate faith?

In what do they indicate faith?

Is it possible that Jesus does not know if a person has faith in Him or not?

-- In James it talks about faith without works being dead.

Also, in Matt 25 when it speaks about the sheep and the goats, the goats were those condemned to eternal damnation because they did not feed, did not clothe, did not visit, etc.
They were condemned because of the works they did not do.

Having said that. A person who gives their fortunes to charity, spends their life doing volunteer work to help the needy, etc., will not see the Kingdom of God if they do not surrender their life to Him and become a Christian.

 

[bling]

It is by our Love you will know them.

Love has to be the motivation or the work being done is worthless.
It might be good to ask the person why they are doing the work.

 

[RichardBurger]

-- In James it talks about faith without works being dead.

Also, in Matt 25 when it speaks about the sheep and the goats, the goats were those condemned to eternal damnation because they did not feed, did not clothe, did not visit, etc.
They were condemned because of the works they did not do.

Having said that. A person who gives their fortunes to charity, spends their life doing volunteer work to help the needy, etc., will not see the Kingdom of God if they do not surrender their life to Him and become a Christian.

The sheep and goat judgement is not a judgement of the children of God under grace. It is a judgement of the Gentile nations to see which ones will go into the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth. God made a promise to Abraham that those that blessed the Jews would be blessed. It has nothing to do with the children of God under grace.

 

[fivesense]

The sheep and goat judgement is not a judgement of the children of God under grace. It is a judgement of the Gentile nations to see which ones will go into the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth. God made a promise to Abraham that those that blessed the Jews would be blessed. It has nothing to do with the children of God under grace.

This is true.
fivesense

 

[Foreigner]

I would appreciate scripture to support that.

 

[RichardBurger]

I would appreciate scripture to support that.

Matthew 25:31-32
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
NKJV

It does not say Israel, it says the nations. Another fact is that the only reason for their being spared is the way they treated Jesus' brethren, the Jews.

Genesis 12:2-3
2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
NKJV

Matthew 25:40
40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
NKJV

 

[Martin W.]

Do works really indicate faith?

In what way do they indicate faith?

In what do they indicate faith?

Is it possible that Jesus does not know if a person has faith in Him or not?

Faith is what gets us into heaven.

Works determine our rewards once we are in heaven.

Some very good people do some very good works but do so outside of Christ.

To be without Christ is to be without Christ. Period.

To be with Christ without works is still salvation. Just no rewards.

I think what you are asking Richard is should there be some external evidence of faith in Christ ? I think the answer should be yes but I think it belongs under "fruit of the Spirit" rather than works.

Hope I understood your question . Feel free to correct me.

I always enjoy your posts and questions. Thanks.

Martin.


ps: I think we should always try our best to do some good works. My (personal) problem is trying to define what are good and worthwhile works and what amounts to flogging a dead horse.

I have flogged way too many dead horses in my life that turned out to be a complete waste of time , in spite of my good intentions.

 

[Martin W.]

Just another quick note about judgments. There will be several.

First will be the sheep and goats separation .... sheep (believers) go to the right. Goats (heathen) go to the left.

The sheep (Christians) (are in heaven) and go to the Bema seat of Christ for judgments based on works done in the flesh. Some get great rewards , some get few rewards but all are in heaven with Jesus. Mistakes are forgiven.

The goats are judged and punished according to their lives while in the flesh. Some are punished more severely than others. Forgiveness is no longer an option. Salvation is no longer an option.


Read very carefully my friends. The question asked at the Great Throne judgment is ...... I sent my Son Jesus ... did you receive him or reject him ..... ?

Based on your reply you will determine whether you go with the sheep or the goats. You yourselves will have made the decision. Not some mean old god picking and choosing.


Adds a bit more weight to the phrase "Personal decision for Christ" doesn't it ??

Best regards
Martin

 

[fivesense]

Just another quick note about judgments. There will be several.
First will be the sheep and goats separation .... sheep (believers) go to the right. Goats (heathen) go to the left.
The sheep (Christians) (are in heaven) and go to the Bema seat of Christ for judgments based on works done in the flesh. Some get great rewards , some get few rewards but all are in heaven with Jesus. Mistakes are forgiven.
The goats are judged and punished according to their lives while in the flesh. Some are punished more severely than others. Forgiveness is no longer an option. Salvation is no longer an option.
Read very carefully my friends. The question asked at the Great Throne judgment is ...... I sent my Son Jesus ... did you receive him or reject him ..... ?
Based on your reply you will determine whether you go with the sheep or the goats. You yourselves will have made the decision. Not some mean old god picking and choosing.
Adds a bit more weight to the phrase "Personal decision for Christ" doesn't it ??
Best regards
Martin

I enjoyed your previous post Martin. I commend your balance and perspective. It will be rewarded.
I could take you to task for "spiritualizing" the sheep and goat parable. But I will only ask that you look at it literally, as it was meant to be interpreted. You may prefer your take on it, but please break it down in the literal sense once and see what happens. It solves alot of thorny issues down the road in the Letters, and brings further light to what has been written. Please humor me and give it a shot.
fivesense

 

[RichardBurger]

Just another quick note about judgments. There will be several.

First will be the sheep and goats separation .... sheep (believers) go to the right. Goats (heathen) go to the left.

The sheep (Christians) (are in heaven) and go to the Bema seat of Christ for judgments based on works done in the flesh. Some get great rewards , some get few rewards but all are in heaven with Jesus. Mistakes are forgiven.

The goats are judged and punished according to their lives while in the flesh. Some are punished more severely than others. Forgiveness is no longer an option. Salvation is no longer an option.


Read very carefully my friends. The question asked at the Great Throne judgment is ...... I sent my Son Jesus ... did you receive him or reject him ..... ?

Based on your reply you will determine whether you go with the sheep or the goats. You yourselves will have made the decision. Not some mean old god picking and choosing.


Adds a bit more weight to the phrase "Personal decision for Christ" doesn't it ??

Best regards
Martin

Thanks for your reply.

It is my understanding that the Christians are already in heaven at the time of the sheep/goat judgement, taken there in the rapture. The sheep/goat judgement when He comes back to rule on earth is not for the Christians, it is to bless those that blessed Israel. It has nothing to do with sins of the flesh. Notice that the only reason given is their actions of blessing the Jews. Nothing has been said about their sins of the flesh nor of any faith in Jesus' work on the cross..

 

[Foreigner]

"It is my understanding that the Christians are already in heaven at the time of the sheep/goat judgement, taken there in the rapture."

-- Uh oh. He said the 'R word.'

Matthew 25:31-32
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
NKJV

It does not say Israel, it says the nations. Another fact is that the only reason for their being spared is the way they treated Jesus' brethren, the Jews.

Genesis 12:2-3
2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
NKJV

Matthew 25:40
40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
NKJV

That provides no support for your statement: "The sheep and goat judgement is not a judgement of the children of God under grace. It is a judgement of the Gentile nations to see which ones will go into the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth. God made a promise to Abraham that those that blessed the Jews would be blessed. It has nothing to do with the children of God under grace."

 

[RichardBurger]

"It is my understanding that the Christians are already in heaven at the time of the sheep/goat judgement, taken there in the rapture."

-- Uh oh. He said the 'R word.'






That provides no support for your statement: "The sheep and goat judgement is not a judgement of the children of God under grace. It is a judgement of the Gentile nations to see which ones will go into the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth. God made a promise to Abraham that those that blessed the Jews would be blessed. It has nothing to do with the children of God under grace."

To me it does.
There are many that believe in the rapture of the church and I am one of them. You indicate that you are not one of them. Okay.

 

[Foreigner]

I was not talking about the Rapture, Richy. I was talking about your comment relating to the claim about the sheep and the goats. The scriptures from Genesis and Matthew do not support that claim.

 

[RichardBurger]

I was not talking about the Rapture, Richy. I was talking about your comment relating to the claim about the sheep and the goats. The scriptures from Genesis and Matthew do not support that claim.

I believe they do.

 

[Foreigner]

Awesome. Care to connect the specific dots?

 

[RichardBurger]

Awesome. Care to connect the specific dots?

Why should I? Don't you already believe I can't? It would not matter what I said you will just ignore it. I played that game for many years but I found it to be all work and no play.

But I will try again. The only reason given for the sheep to be able to go in is the fact that they blessed the Jews. The scripture account says nothing about their belief, faith, trust, confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross. Now if you can tell me of another reason given in the account of the sheep/goat judgement then have a go at it. --- Now please spare me the run all over the Bible to bring in other scriptures that are taken out of context and forced into the account.

 

[Foreigner]

"Why should I? Don't you already believe I can't?" - Richy

-- What an awesome opportunity to educate me in front of others. I simply stated that your scriptures do not support your statement. You stating the "I believe they do" does not make your position any more accurate or believable.



"It would not matter what I said you will just ignore it." - Richy

-- That is a statement usually given by a person who simply can't make their case. Educate me (my positions have been strengthened or altered by imput from this site on more than one occasion). If you make your case and I refuse to accept it, you look good and I look unreasonable. Where is the downside for you?



So here we go:


"The only reason given for the sheep to be able to go in is the fact that they blessed the Jews. " - Richy

-- Which specific scripture(s) show that when Jesus says "Whenever you have done it to the least of my brothers, you have done it unto me" he is speaking only about to the degree of which they did or didn't do something to the Jews?


"The scripture account says nothing about their belief, faith, trust, confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross." - Richy

-- And that scripture (or any other from what I can see) doesn't state that it is referring to the treatment of Jews by Gentiles. That is why I am asking for a specific verse which supports that idea. That SPECIFIC idea.

We are saved because we have given our lives to Jesus. But Jesus does expect our relationship with Him to be proactive. That means he expects us to assist those we see in need if and where we can.
Some He calls to preach. Some He calls to teach. But He calls all to emulate Him. That means we do more than just go to church, tithe, and do Bible studies. If we have given our lives to Jesus but ignore those who are starving, thirsty, hospitalized, imprisoned, alone, etc. doesn't it stand to reason He is going to have an issue with that?



"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction..." - James 1:27

-- James wasn't just speaking to Jews or saying this should be done just for Jews. Also, 'visit' is an action verb. That means Jesus expects us to do this as Christians. If we do not do what Christ calls us to do as his followers..."And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you have not done it to the least of these My brethren, you've not done it unto Me.'

 

[RichardBurger]

"Why should I? Don't you already believe I can't?" - Richy

-- What an awesome opportunity to educate me in front of others. I simply stated that your scriptures do not support your statement. You stating the "I believe they do" does not make your position any more accurate or believable.



"It would not matter what I said you will just ignore it." - Richy

-- That is a statement usually given by a person who simply can't make their case. Educate me (my positions have been strengthened or altered by imput from this site on more than one occasion). If you make your case and I refuse to accept it, you look good and I look unreasonable. Where is the downside for you?



So here we go:


"The only reason given for the sheep to be able to go in is the fact that they blessed the Jews. " - Richy

-- Which specific scripture(s) show that when Jesus says "Whenever you have done it to the least of my brothers, you have done it unto me" he is speaking only about to the degree of which they did or didn't do something to the Jews?


"The scripture account says nothing about their belief, faith, trust, confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross." - Richy

-- And that scripture (or any other from what I can see) doesn't state that it is referring to the treatment of Jews by Gentiles. That is why I am asking for a specific verse which supports that idea. That SPECIFIC idea.

We are saved because we have given our lives to Jesus. But Jesus does expect our relationship with Him to be proactive. That means he expects us to assist those we see in need if and where we can.
Some He calls to preach. Some He calls to teach. But He calls all to emulate Him. That means we do more than just go to church, tithe, and do Bible studies. If we have given our lives to Jesus but ignore those who are starving, thirsty, hospitalized, imprisoned, alone, etc. doesn't it stand to reason He is going to have an issue with that?



"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction..." - James 1:27

-- James wasn't just speaking to Jews or saying this should be done just for Jews. Also, 'visit' is an action verb. That means Jesus expects us to do this as Christians. If we do not do what Christ calls us to do as his followers..."And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you have not done it to the least of these My brethren, you've not done it unto Me.'

I have already said that you will not believe what I write and your reply indicates I am right. You have no "SPECIFIC" scripture that says Jesus is talking about those that are saved under grace EITHER. Where is the Jewish nation called "the nation(s)" in the scriptures? Where are those saved under grace refered to as "the nations?"

Matthew 25:32-33
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
NKJV

It is clearly speaking of the GENTILE NATIONS and the only reason they are being selected as sheep is that they blessed the Jews. But you claim they are Christians doing good works. If so why isn't their faith in Jesus' work on the cross indicated? From what I read there is only one reason given, they blessed the Jews.

Aren't you indicating that you wish to educate me? Look, I don't care whether you are the most educated or not. I am NOT here to make a name for myself. I am here to express what I believe to be the truth. You are here to promote your idea of works for the children of God and I do not believe Jesus is talking about the works of the children of God. Like I said, you already believe what you want to believe so go with it.

 

[Foreigner]

"Matthew 25:32-33
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
NKJV

It is clearly speaking of the GENTILE NATIONS..." - Richy

-- How exactly is is CLEARLY speaking of the Gentile Nations?
The word "nation" in the Greek also translates to the word "tribe."
Since it says "All the nations" how exactly do you come up with "All the nations except Israel?"
I still see nothing that indicates that when Jesus said "whatever you do to the least of my brothers" he meant "the least of my Jewish brothers."
Certainly since the Jews are God's chosen people they would never be considered "the least of my brothers."



"From what I read there is only one reason given, they blessed the Jews." - Richy

-- And what exact scripture are you saying that states it is because they "blessed the Jews?"
I assume it will state that specifically in the scripture.

I try to look at this assuming you are 100% correct, but so far the support you provide falls far short.

Can anyone else help Richy make his argument for him?