Who founded your church?

[jaybird]

The Scriptures say A LOT of things YOU don't understand.
Why should this be any different?

and one of those many things they say is baptize in the name of Jesus, something you teach people not to do.

 

[theefaith]

scripture says name of Jesus

Refers to the religion of Jesus or new covenant
There must be the intent to do what the church has always done

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is what Eusebius wrote on Mt 28 19

With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” — (Proof of the Gospel by Eusebius, Book III, ch 6, 132 (a), p. 152)

this guy lived in the 200s, he quoted the end of Mt without the trinity formula, his version is to be baptized in the name of Jesus, just the same as the book of Luke, just the same as the apostles.

The Hebrew Shem Tov's book of Mathew also supports baptism in the name of Jesus.

With this new evidence everything syncs up perfect. Its only when the trinity formula is present in the baptism formula that everything gets flipped on its head and you have a big controversy.

Oh - se we're quoting Eusebius now are we?
Do you ALSO agree with Eusebius about the teachings of the Catholic Church with regard to:

- Peter’s Primacy and presence in Rome?
(Ecclesiastical History 6:14:1 [A.D. 325]), time (Letter to Soter of Rome [inter A.D. 166 -174] as recorded by Eusebius).

- The observance of the Lord’s Day (Sunday) instead of the Sabbath (Saturday)?
(Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 325]), (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).

- The importance of Sacred Tradition?
(Ecclesiastical History, 3:36 [A.D. 325]).

- AGAINST the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura?
(The Writings of Papias, From Book 3 of Ecclesiastical History by Eusebius, Chap. 39, Para. 4)

OR, is this simply another case of "Cafeteria christianity", where YOU pick and choose what YOU agree with?

Why don't wew go even EARLIER than Eusebius - to a FIRST century document, written while MOST of the Apostles were STILL alive.
In the Didache, (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (60 AD) - we read about what THEY taught about Baptism:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

OUCH - that's GOTTA hurt . . .

 

[theefaith]

the religion of Jesus, ummm ok?
passage still says name of Jesus, you need to get a big black marker and start buying up bibles so you can black out those passages

from the didache early teaching of the apostles


Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptizeinto the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptismlet the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

 

[theefaith]

Not even per Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 10 or Acts 19?

Which "one true church" other than that one in Acts are you referring to?

Didache early teaching of apostles

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptizeinto the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptismlet the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

 

[BreadOfLife]

and one of those many things they say is baptize in the name of Jesus, something you teach people not to do.

Not at ALL.
I simply understand what it means, whereas, YOU don't.

And I've got the entire Early Church behind me . . .

 

[theefaith]

Egad!

Another Christian that does not know what the name of the son is.

I AM in the twilight zone.

Help!

Does not matter

 

[theefaith]

No, you don't. Either I have the authority or I don't. You can't have it both ways.

Even though Jesus says to Peter, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven,” that very same thing Jesus says to Christians in general, with the very same words, two chapters later in Matthew 18:18: “Truly, I say to you [plural — not you, Peter, but you, plural, who are gathered in my name], whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The bedrock on which the church is built is the bedrock of Jesus’s teachings, with the rock-solid core of his identity — “you are the Messiah; you are the Son of God” — at the center of those teachings.

So, it’s these teachings of Jesus that are the keys of the kingdom.


When any faithful Christian who speaks the words with the bedrock of Jesus’s identity at the center — when you speak those words faithfully, you are using the keys of the kingdom to open the kingdom in people’s lives.

It's not about any individual having the keys, but all the faithful.

your not an apostle

 

[jaybird]

Oh - se we're quoting Eusebius now are we?
Do you ALSO agree with Eusebius about the teachings of the Catholic Church with regard to:

- Peter’s Primacy and presence in Rome?
(Ecclesiastical History 6:14:1 [A.D. 325]), time (Letter to Soter of Rome [inter A.D. 166 -174] as recorded by Eusebius).

- The observance of the Lord’s Day (Sunday) instead of the Sabbath (Saturday)?
(Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 325]), (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).

- The importance of Sacred Tradition?
(Ecclesiastical History, 3:36 [A.D. 325]).

- AGAINST the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura?
(The Writings of Papias, From Book 3 of Ecclesiastical History by Eusebius, Chap. 39, Para. 4)

OR, is this simply another case of "Cafeteria christianity", where YOU pick and choose what YOU agree with?

Why don't wew go even EARLIER than Eusebius - to a FIRST century document, written while MOST of the Apostles were STILL alive.
In the Didache, (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (60 AD) - we read about what THEY taught about Baptism:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

OUCH - that's GOTTA hurt . . .

what i presented did not contradict scripture

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus,..... "go ye...baptizing them in the name...of the son.."
RCC,...."I baptize you in the name of the son".
Candidate..."What is that name?".
RCC...."I dunno....son?".
Candidate....."C'mon, man!"

and one of those many things they say is baptize in the name of Jesus, something you teach people not to do.

Since you're both Scriptural Literalists - explain the following verse:
Matt. 2:3
When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and ALL JERUSALEM with him.

Was "ALL" of Jerusalem disturbed by the news of the birth of Jesus?

THINK, before you answer this time . . .

 

[jaybird]

from the didache early teaching of the apostles


Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptizeinto the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptismlet the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

from the bible:
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[jaybird]

Not at ALL.
I simply understand what it means, whereas, YOU don't.

And I've got the entire Early Church behind me . . .

and i simply accept what it says, you do not

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BreadOfLife]

what i presented did not contradict scripture

That's NOT what I asked you.

I asked you if you agreed with Eusebius about all of his Catholic teachings qas well - OR, is this simply another case of "Cafeteria Christianity", where YOU pick and choose what YOU agree with?

 

[theefaith]

The Kingdom is within us. Jesus is the King but He is within us. It is called abiding in Him, and He in us.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

You have been baptized in water, but have you been baptized by fire? Has your old carnal sinful nature been burned out of you, and you no longer sin? If so, why do you have confessionals? Why doesn't the RCC teach this most important part of the gospel? That Jesus came to take away your sin, and in Him is no sin. 1 John 3:5 and 9?

it does have spiritual aspects and the grace of the kingdom but it is also very physical

Matt 5:14
Ye (the apostles/ the church) are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
(There is only one church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors!) Jn 10:16

Christian baptism include fire or the love of God

We still have free will and fallen human nature

 

[BreadOfLife]

from the bible:
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

ALSO from the Bible:

Matt. 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Only, the Didache actually MATCHES this quote . . .

 

[theefaith]

from the bible:
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

the command to be baptized is in the name of Jesus not the baptism

 

[jaybird]

Since you're both Scriptural Literalists - explain the following verse:
Matt. 2:3
When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and ALL JERUSALEM with him.

Was "ALL" of Jerusalem disturbed by the news of the birth of Jesus?

THINK, before you answer this time . . .

were they "all" disturbed??? so if we understand this a certain way it means we can change the meaning of passages such as:

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

now with the proper understanding of Herod we can change baptisms and baptize NOT in the name of Jesus. goodness gracious the lengths you guys go to change scripture.

 

[jaybird]

ALSO from the Bible:

Matt. 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Only, the Didache actually MATCHES this quote . . .

so we have one passage that says your way, and the passage in question has a very checkered past.
and we have my way, supported by many many many many scriptures, not one of those with baggage of controversy and they all sync perfect with the rest of scripture.

and you pick the option with all the problems lol go figure. all that to support the manmade trinity doctrine. wow!

 

[jaybird]

That's NOT what I asked you.

I asked you if you agreed with Eusebius about all of his Catholic teachings qas well - OR, is this simply another case of "Cafeteria Christianity", where YOU pick and choose what YOU agree with?

i really dont know, i am not an expert on Eusebius. unlike you, i do not to know it all.
what i do know was the quote by him was just one thing of a long list of facts. i think thats something to question and not sweep under the rug.

 

[jaybird]

the command to be baptized is in the name of Jesus not the baptism

ok ok you have made a good point, i missed this before. the "command" was in the name of Jesus, the baptism was not. the way you said it before did not make sense.
i still disagree, its a good argument, but for it to be valid another formula would need to be present, and there is none.

you see how i did that? you presented an argument, i accepted, analyzed, responded with a counter argument with substance. thats how debates work. you dont ignore the response and just repeat the last thing you said that was just refuted.