Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick

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Billy Evmur

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You would think freewill was written in every chapter and every paragraph of the bible, in fact there are just a few mentions in the OT and these all have regard to freewill offerings because God never demands back any gifts He has given.

You cannot read any book or pamphlet on the subject of science without you soon encounter an affirmation of evolution, it is pure brainwash and it works.

You cannot read hardly any book or pamphlet about christianity without encountering an affirmation of human freewill, it is pure brainwash.

Jesus never spoke of it, nor did any of His apostles.

There is everywhere the choice obey and live or perish.

This is not freewill, if we obey we will be doing God's will, if we die, dead men do not have freewill.

What makes freewill impossible is the penalty for non obedience i.e. death. When the devil said "you will not die you will be like God ..." He not only made God out to be a liar but he tricked them into believing they had freewill.

He still works this deception today.
 

Enoch111

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You would think freewill was written in every chapter and every paragraph of the bible...
The reason freewill is not mentioned frequently in the Bible is simply because it is assumed or implied to exist. Therefore if we want to know whether humans were created with freewill (and continue to exercise it) we need only study Genesis chapters1, 2 and 3.

In chapter 1 God created mankind in His own image and likeness, which included the ability to make free choices.

In chapter 2:16,17 God gave Adam just one commandment: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. This implied that Adam and Eve had the ability to choose to disobey God. This commandment would not have been necessary if Adam and Eve had no freewill and therefore would always be obedient.

In chapter 3 we find that in fact they did exercise freewill, and made the decision to disobey God (with catastrophic consequences). In view of that God sent His only begotten Son as the Savior of the world. And before Christ ascended, He commanded His apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15,16). The decision to obey the Gospel would also be a freewill choice, and the one who failed to obey the Gospel would be damned.
 

2nd Timothy Group

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Curious . . . how can a person have free will if they're controlled by something, or someone, other than themselves?

Romans 8:5-9 NLT - "Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

The only way to have True free will is if we're NOT controlled by either the Mind of Satan or the Mind of Christ. As far as I can Biblically see, there is no in-between . . . ever, unless we're going to consider Adam and Eve as being the only two that were not controlled by the Mind of Satan or the Mind of Christ prior to their sinning. These are the only two people who know what it feels like to first be controlled by the Mind of Satan, and were likely the first to be lifted of the Curse, and possess the Mind of Christ . . . one being led by the Spirit.

What? The Holy men and women had the Spirit of Christ WITHIN them? Well, that's what Peter says . . . 1 Peter 1:10-11 NLT - "This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you. They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ's suffering and his great glory afterward."
 
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Billy Evmur

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The reason freewill is not mentioned frequently in the Bible is simply because it is assumed or implied to exist. Therefore if we want to know whether humans were created with freewill (and continue to exercise it) we need only study Genesis chapters1, 2 and 3.

In chapter 1 God created mankind in His own image and likeness, which included the ability to make free choices.

In chapter 2:16,17 God gave Adam just one commandment: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. This implied that Adam and Eve had the ability to choose to disobey God. This commandment would not have been necessary if Adam and Eve had no freewill and therefore would always be obedient.

In chapter 3 we find that in fact they did exercise freewill, and made the decision to disobey God (with catastrophic consequences). In view of that God sent His only begotten Son as the Savior of the world. And before Christ ascended, He commanded His apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15,16). The decision to obey the Gospel would also be a freewill choice, and the one who failed to obey the Gospel would be damned.

I would say the reason the bible doesn't speak about freewill is because no ancient person would have dreamed that they had freewill.

Choice is not freewill

We don't set out the options or determine the outcome of our choices.

A&E had the choice you and I don't, we are BOUND to sin and we are bound to die. All the supposed "freewill" in the world will not prevent either.

The bible teaches not that we have freewill but that we are in bondage, slaves until Christ sets us free. What part of slavery spells freewill in your opinion.
 

Billy Evmur

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Curious . . . how can a person have free will if they're controlled by something, or someone, other than themselves?

Romans 8:5-9 NLT - "Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

The only way to have True free will is if we're NOT controlled by either the Mind of Satan or the Mind of Christ. As far as I can Biblically see, there is no in-between . . . ever, unless we're going to consider Adam and Eve as being the only two that were not controlled by the Mind of Satan or the Mind of Christ prior to their sinning. These are the only two people who know what it feels like to first be controlled by the Mind of Satan, and were likely the first to be lifted of the Curse, and possess the Mind of Christ . . . one being led by the Spirit.

What? The Holy men and women had the Spirit of Christ WITHIN them? Well, that's what Peter says . . . 1 Peter 1:10-11 NLT - "This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you. They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ's suffering and his great glory afterward."

Quite so, we may choose who we are to serve, who will be our master. But we will serve.

And we can't even choose God unless God proffers to us the choice, Big Chief Sitting Bull never got the choice. And even when God does give us the choice we can't enact that choice unless He first sets us free.

Man's condition since the fall is dire.
 
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Grailhunter

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A mind control religion that believes their minds are controlled and reality is nothing more than predetermined play…irony or hilarity? When you put predestinationism in motion, it is horrid! As a movie it would be one of the scariest sci-fi horror flicks made. In stead of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, it would be Invasion of the Mind Snatcher. I sometimes consider that it maybe away of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because they hide it. They hide it because they know, that if people really knew what predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with it. That is why they very carefully hide their beliefs from their congregations.

It makes people wonder what kind of heart they have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But predestinationism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Babies damned to hell before they are born. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! It is like Satan has given himself a guaranteed quota. What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? What kind of people think this is good? Is it all about feeling special? The elect, is that worth it? To believe this is right is hideous! Look in history, those that thought they were the elect were the worst of people. And it is not just the Nazis! Thinking that they are above somebody, warps your mind.

If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what scriptures would he quote? Condemnation, judgment, negativity, hate? If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what Christian denomination would he form? Schemer that he is, he would search the scriptures for scriptures that he could use against God… Predestination, let us make it a constant reality! God is a horrific puppet master that enslaves all humanity with no hope of escape! Damns them to Hell before they born!

He would push judgment before creation and predestine the innocent to hell, while laughing at those that are not damned because no good they did was of their own merit, but rather forced by him. In this church of Satan, no good would matter, only evil. Faith, love, compassion, prayer, grace, forgiveness, kindness, church attendance and good deeds would not matter or show character or true faith because they are all puppets on strings, every movement and thought being forced upon them, dummies of the satanic puppet master.

The scheme to explanation that God used the power of clairvoyance to know who would be faithful and who would not and then set it in stone does not work out....if He knew how it was all going to end, He would not need to use the power of Predestination, just leave it alone and it would turn out that way. Predestination is about changing something for the good. He is God, not an enslaver.

From the outside it seems this religion replaces God with Satan, but of course that is not true. Predestinationists have hijacked our God to demonize Him much like the Moslems. No heresy can come close to equaling this. It slanders God in the worst way! Portraying him with the character of Satan!
 
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Billy Evmur

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A mind control religion that believes their minds are controlled and reality is nothing more than predetermined play…irony or hilarity? When you put predestinationism in motion, it is horrid! As a movie it would be one of the scariest sci-fi horror flicks made. In stead of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, it would be Invasion of the Mind Snatcher. I sometimes consider that it maybe away of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because they hide it. They hide it because they know, that if people really knew what predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with it. That is why they very carefully hide their beliefs from their congregations.

It makes people wonder what kind of heart they have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But predestinationism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Babies damned to hell before they are born. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! It is like Satan has given himself a guaranteed quota. What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? What kind of people think this is good? Is it all about feeling special? The elect, is that worth it? To believe this is right is hideous! Look in history, those that thought they were the elect were the worst of people. And it is not just the Nazis! Thinking that they are above somebody, warps your mind.

If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what scriptures would he quote? Condemnation, judgment, negativity, hate? If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what Christian denomination would he form? Schemer that he is, he would search the scriptures for scriptures that he could use against God… Predestination, let us make it a constant reality! God is a horrific puppet master that enslaves all humanity with no hope of escape! Damns them to Hell before they born!

He would push judgment before creation and predestine the innocent to hell, while laughing at those that are not damned because no good they did was of their own merit, but rather forced by him. In this church of Satan, no good would matter, only evil. Faith, love, compassion, prayer, grace, forgiveness, kindness, church attendance and good deeds would not matter or show character or true faith because they are all puppets on strings, every movement and thought being forced upon them, dummies of the satanic puppet master.

From the outside it seems this religion replaces God with Satan, but of course that is not true. Predestinationists have hijacked our God to demonize Him much like the Moslems. No heresy can come close to equaling this. It slanders God in the worst way! Portraying him with the character of Satan!

Whom God knew He also predestinated ...

If the devil had a christian in his lap he would teach him that he had freewill.

All that stuff about mind control, we are not talking about machines or aliens or even men predetermining our lives we are talking about God who knows what we think before we think it, who has counted the hairs upon our heads, who knows us right well and who loves us with an everlasting love.

... don't you trust God to order your life?
 
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Jane_Doe22

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You would think freewill was written in every chapter and every paragraph of the bible, in fact there are just a few mentions in the OT and these all have regard to freewill offerings because God never demands back any gifts He has given.

You cannot read any book or pamphlet on the subject of science without you soon encounter an affirmation of evolution, it is pure brainwash and it works.

You cannot read hardly any book or pamphlet about christianity without encountering an affirmation of human freewill, it is pure brainwash.

Jesus never spoke of it, nor did any of His apostles.

There is everywhere the choice obey and live or perish.

This is not freewill, if we obey we will be doing God's will, if we die, dead men do not have freewill.

What makes freewill impossible is the penalty for non obedience i.e. death. When the devil said "you will not die you will be like God ..." He not only made God out to be a liar but he tricked them into believing they had freewill.

He still works this deception today.
Free will deniers make no sense.

You come on here, trying to *convince* others to leave an idea you disagree with. Except, if your idea nobody-has-freewill beliefs are correct, then nobody can change their ideas-- God can only force the change. So why come on here preaching? Wouldn't your time be better spent asking God to force more people to follow him?
 

Grailhunter

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Whom God knew He also predestinated ...

If the devil had a christian in his lap he would teach him that he had freewill.

All that stuff about mind control, we are not talking about machines or aliens or even men predetermining our lives we are talking about God who knows what we think before we think it, who has counted the hairs upon our heads, who knows us right well and who loves us with an everlasting love.

... don't you trust God to order your life?

You are blaspheming God. He gives Satan a guaranteed quota? No hope of escape? As I said, it does not even make sense. If God knew the end result, He would not have to control or change anything. Satan just sits back and relaxes? He does not have to tempt anyone, it all in bag? People predestined to Hell.

What do you think judgment day is for? It is more than a wrong belief it is evil. Eventually you are saying that God created evil. Why not just allow the "elect" to be born? Why allow all the horrors of reality if no one has a choice? Beyond that, it would be kinda boring for God? What is faith worth if you are forced?
 
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2nd Timothy Group

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A mind control religion that believes their minds are controlled and reality is nothing more than predetermined play…irony or hilarity? When you put predestinationism in motion, it is horrid! As a movie it would be one of the scariest sci-fi horror flicks made. Instead of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, it would be Invasion of the Mind Snatcher. I sometimes consider that it may be a way of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because they hide it. They hide it because they know, that if people really knew what predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with it. That is why they very carefully hide their beliefs from their congregations.

It makes people wonder what kind of heart they have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast, and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But predestinationism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Babies damned to hell before they are born. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! It is like Satan has given himself a guaranteed quota. What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? What kind of people thinks this is good? Is it all about feeling special? The elect, is that worth it? To believe this is right is hideous! Look in history, those that thought they were the elect were the worst of people. And it is not just the Nazis! Thinking that they are above somebody, warps your mind.

If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what scriptures would he quote? Condemnation, judgment, negativity, hate? If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what Christian denomination would he form? Schemer that he is, he would search the scriptures for scriptures that he could use against God… Predestination, let us make it a constant reality! God is a horrific puppet master that enslaves all humanity with no hope of escape! Damns them to Hell before they born!

He would push judgment before creation and predestine the innocent to hell, while laughing at those that are not damned because no good they did was of their own merit, but rather forced by him. In this church of Satan, no good would matter, only evil. Faith, love, compassion, prayer, grace, forgiveness, kindness, church attendance and good deeds would not matter or show character or true faith because they are all puppets on strings, every movement and thought being forced upon them, dummies of the satanic puppet master.

The scheme to explanation that God used the power of clairvoyance to know who would be faithful and who would not and then set it in stone does not work out....if He knew how it was all going to end, He would not need to use the power of Predestination, just leave it alone and it would turn out that way. Predestination is about changing something for the good. He is God, not an enslaver.

From the outside it seems this religion replaces God with Satan, but of course that is not true. Predestinationists have hijacked our God to demonize Him much like the Moslems. No heresy can come close to equaling this. It slanders God in the worst way! Portraying him with the character of Satan!

Sorry. But . . . I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just a reporter telling what the Bible has to say. A sober reading of the entire Bible should lead anyone to the same conclusion. There's no way around the fact that God has a Plan and that it WILL be fulfilled regardless of the power that asleep humans think that they possess.
 

Grailhunter

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Sorry. But . . . I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just a reporter telling what the Bible has to say. A sober reading of the entire Bible should lead anyone to the same conclusion. There's no way around the fact that God has a Plan and that it WILL be fulfilled regardless of the power that asleep humans think that they possess.

A sober reading...you so funny. Hands down God has the power to control everything. But He is not a satanic puppet master. lol
Like I said, "your conclusion" make no sense. You want to see predestination in motion...actually in the storyline? Look at the people He picked in the OT as champions...look at how He picked the Apostles....They just did not just walk up to Him like controlled puppets. NO, what you believe makes no sense and blasphemes God.
 

2nd Timothy Group

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You want to see predestination in motion...actually in the storyline? Look at the people He picked in the OT as champions...look at how He picked the Apostles....They just did not just walk up to Him like controlled puppets.

Actually, He found them and told them to follow him, and some dropped their nets without question. Yes, they did follow Him much like a puppet.

John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

I've got about 270 Scriptural references to the control of God. Our God controls entire nations, thus controlling one mind is nothing.
 

Grailhunter

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Actually, He found them and told them to follow him, and some dropped their nets without question. Yes, they did follow Him much like a puppet.

John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

I've got about 270 Scriptural references to the control of God. Our God controls entire nations, thus controlling one mind is nothing.

Its not that God does not have the power of predestination or the power to kill or cause great suffering....it's a matter of how much of it. Its not like Christ and the Apostles walked around and said, "Don't worry about it, you are either going to hell or heaven. It's already been predetermined? There was an urgency to get the word out and for people to choose to believe. They did not go and have a barbeque and wait for people to believe, they worked at it. Faith is a choice, without free-will it means nothing.

And you cannot escape the fact that unless God intend to change something, if he knew how it was all going to work out, there was no need for Predestinations. But this is not what this is about, because it just does not pan out. These people got a thing for being the "elect" it was the same thing with the Nazis, we are the elect race! The chosen ones! It is a self edifying religion. But they give the explanation that God is just locking down what He already knows is going to happen. It is a lie! It does not make sense. It does not fit into the storyline of the Bible. And it insinuates that God is either a monster or Satan.
 
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Enoch111

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Choice is not freewill...
If choice (the ability or capability to make choices, either good or bad) is not freewill, then we can define anything in any way we wish. But the truth of the matter is that everyone must make choices and then live with the consequences. God did not create robots but free moral agents.

Calvinists claim that because of sin and the sin nature, no one can choose to respond to the Gospel, or choose to do right. But that is patently false, as we see in Scripture. In spite of the sin nature, all human beings have a conscience, and all can respond to the Gospel under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise God could not command all men everywhere to repent.
 

Nancy

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A mind control religion that believes their minds are controlled and reality is nothing more than predetermined play…irony or hilarity? When you put predestinationism in motion, it is horrid! As a movie it would be one of the scariest sci-fi horror flicks made. In stead of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, it would be Invasion of the Mind Snatcher. I sometimes consider that it maybe away of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because they hide it. They hide it because they know, that if people really knew what predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with it. That is why they very carefully hide their beliefs from their congregations.

It makes people wonder what kind of heart they have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But predestinationism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Babies damned to hell before they are born. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! It is like Satan has given himself a guaranteed quota. What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? What kind of people think this is good? Is it all about feeling special? The elect, is that worth it? To believe this is right is hideous! Look in history, those that thought they were the elect were the worst of people. And it is not just the Nazis! Thinking that they are above somebody, warps your mind.

If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what scriptures would he quote? Condemnation, judgment, negativity, hate? If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what Christian denomination would he form? Schemer that he is, he would search the scriptures for scriptures that he could use against God… Predestination, let us make it a constant reality! God is a horrific puppet master that enslaves all humanity with no hope of escape! Damns them to Hell before they born!

He would push judgment before creation and predestine the innocent to hell, while laughing at those that are not damned because no good they did was of their own merit, but rather forced by him. In this church of Satan, no good would matter, only evil. Faith, love, compassion, prayer, grace, forgiveness, kindness, church attendance and good deeds would not matter or show character or true faith because they are all puppets on strings, every movement and thought being forced upon them, dummies of the satanic puppet master.

The scheme to explanation that God used the power of clairvoyance to know who would be faithful and who would not and then set it in stone does not work out....if He knew how it was all going to end, He would not need to use the power of Predestination, just leave it alone and it would turn out that way. Predestination is about changing something for the good. He is God, not an enslaver.

From the outside it seems this religion replaces God with Satan, but of course that is not true. Predestinationists have hijacked our God to demonize Him much like the Moslems. No heresy can come close to equaling this. It slanders God in the worst way! Portraying him with the character of Satan!

Agreed Grail,
They DO hide it from their congregation, I was one of them! You will NEVER hear a call for those who might be unbelievers to come up to the alter. They can NEVER look someone in the face and actually say, without condemning their own horrid doctrine, that "God loves you". They will never say that. It was the coldest church I had ever gone to. The people were generally rude and seemed to be of higher than average intelligence (which means not a thing to me).

There is more to it but, you get the drift. This "doctrine" almost had me turning my back on God one time and it was a horrible reality for me to think that I wasn't saved. I mean, how do THEY even know if they themselves are saved? I did not see the fruit of the Spirit there either, cold, shunning and lonely.

And you are right, why would our Great God even "need" to choose for people?? Can He not work circumstances as He always does without pre programming us? After all...He knows who will choose what and when so...He can make a light change to red in order to protect His children, say there would have been a very bad accident up ahead if said Christian made it through the light? He has all things in His hands and He is always good, always! And JUST!! Amen.
Good post bro.

 

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Curious . . . how can a person have free will if they're controlled by something, or someone, other than themselves?

Romans 8:5-9 NLT - "Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

The only way to have True free will is if we're NOT controlled by either the Mind of Satan or the Mind of Christ. As far as I can Biblically see, there is no in-between . . . ever, unless we're going to consider Adam and Eve as being the only two that were not controlled by the Mind of Satan or the Mind of Christ prior to their sinning. These are the only two people who know what it feels like to first be controlled by the Mind of Satan, and were likely the first to be lifted of the Curse, and possess the Mind of Christ . . . one being led by the Spirit.

What? The Holy men and women had the Spirit of Christ WITHIN them? Well, that's what Peter says . . . 1 Peter 1:10-11 NLT - "This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you. They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ's suffering and his great glory afterward."
Why would we be told this other than giving us the choice who to let control us? Which can only happen if we have freewill.

But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace.
 
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