I Am A Sinner.

[judd]

After reading some parts of the bible, out of fear of going to hell, I changed but later I went back to my sinning ways, not intentional though. I have this strong belief that God Almighty will call me one day just as He called Paul and a total change will occur in my life.

 

[bigape]

Hello judd

It is great that you can admit that you are a sinner.
The fact is, we are all sinners, even those of us that are born again.

I am a sinner, that has been saved by Grace.
--------------------------------------------------
You said......

“After reading some parts of the bible, out of fear of going to hell, I changed.....”

It is commendable, that you changed, but this kind of change will not get you to heaven.
What gets us to heaven, is when “God changes us”.

Being born again is accomplished by God, not by us.
--------------------------------------------------
You have already accomplished the first step, in getting saved, by admitting that you are a sinner; (God can only save sinners.)

Next you need to realize and accept the fact, that your sin, will have to be paid for......
Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

I love this verse, because it says so much and is so clear.
(1)First....“the wages of sin is death”: (Spiritual death:) (Eternal death:)
This is serious.
(2)Also....“the gift of God is eternal life”: Salvation is a gift; It can not be bought by our good works or our changing. You must be willing to accept it as a gift.
(3)Thirdly....“through Jesus Christ our Lord”: Jesus is the only way to heaven: He died in your place on the cross, and He is he one you have to go to for salvation.
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After you understand, that salvation is a necessity; Next you have to understand why and how it is being offered to you.......
Romans 5:8
“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

Another great verse.
(1) First....“God commendeth his love toward us”: This word “commendeth” means (demonstrated); That is, God demonstrated his love for you, by sending Jesus to die for you.
(2) Next....“in that, while we were yet sinners”: We are saved, while we are still sinners.
If we try to clean up our lives first, we will never get saved.
(3) Thirdly....“Christ died for us”: Jesus died for you! This a personal thing; Something that you personally have to do; No one else can get saved for you.
--------------------------------------------------
Now that you understand that you are a sinner, and that your sin needs to be paid for and how Jesus came and died on the cross to pay for your sin, then three days later rose from the grave, to prove that He was the Savior: You are ready to get saved.....
Romans 10:13
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Salvation is just this simple; You must ask Jesus(in prayer), to save you!
He has promised that He will never say no, to this request, so do it NOW.

Note: This will be the only prayer you will ever pray to Jesus.
After you say this prayer, you will be born again, and our Heavenly Father will be your Father, and from now on, you will pray to “Your heavenly father”.



I hope that you get this taken care of soon.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I have this strong belief that God Almighty will call me one day just as He called Paul and a total change will occur in my life.

Could happen, you''ll have lots more fun when it does!!!!
Ask and it is given, remember. Good luck with that - happened to me!
Just keep workin' that soil, brother, can't wai till your mind is renewed - ahh, the freedom, the peace you'll have!
:) Miss Hepburn

 

[[email protected]]

After reading some parts of the bible, out of fear of going to hell, I changed but later I went back to my sinning ways, not intentional though. I have this strong belief that God Almighty will call me one day just as He called Paul and a total change will occur in my life.

Small changes preceed great events. That is the way God does things.

If you are waiting for some sort of celestial fireworks display, don't hold your breath.
Although it is not outside the realm of possibility, that's not the way God usually works.

Your heart must be right with God before He can begin to train you.

Remember that Paul's bright light experience was followed by blindness.

If you're waiting for a light show before you make peace with God, then you've got the blindness part already.

Surrender your heart to God and ask Jesus to come into your life and then you'll see the light.

 

[Templar81]

We're all sinners, all of us. Even when we ask God's forgiveness and are forgiven we don't maintain that state of grace for very long. The scary thing is dying unshriven, but no doubt we will all die with some sin on us. If it is mortal sin we go instantly to Hell, but if it is ve may be able to go to Heaven or perhaps spend a little time in Purgatory. This is why we should always be aware of our sins and never become self rightious or complacent.

 

[bigape]

Hello Templar81

You said.......

“Even when we ask God's forgiveness and are forgiven we don't maintain that state of grace for very long.”

The Bible says, those who receive God’s Saving Grace, are safe in Christ for ever.
--------------------------------------------------
You also said......

“The scary thing is dying unshriven”

This is a man-made(Catholic), teaching; That there is something special about confessing our sins to a priest.
The Bible says nothing about receiving absolution from this kind of confessing.
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said.......

“no doubt we will all die with some sin on us. If it is mortal sin we go instantly to Hell, but if it is ve may be able to go to Heaven or perhaps spend a little time in Purgatory.”

Nowhere, does the Bible teach about purgatory.
Everyone who leaves this life, will either be eternally lost or eternally saved, depending upon their relationship with God, through Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------
There are millions of people like Judd, who are still open to the good news the Bible teaches, about God’s gift of salvation.

Religion(any religion), will not save anybody.
Religion sends people to hell, because they are trusting in it, to get them to heaven.

On the other hand, the Bible teaches us the truth about how to be right with God and go to heaven for eternity.

 

[Templar81]

Bigape
A person can accept Jeus and be forgiven his sins and then he can go off the rails. If he dies off the rails he is dammed if he seeks forgiveness and means it and dies straight away then he'll be alright. Evangelicals refer to a person being "saved" but no-one is saved until they are in Heaven because in lie things are so mutable.

When I refered to shriving I never said anything about confessing to a priest. Ask Selene, even Catholics can pray directly to God just like anyone else, how else would they say the Pater Noster.

Purgatory is in the bible, it is in revelations, I will find the chapters and verses for you later. Just because the word Purgatory is used doesn't mean it isn't there. Neither for that matter is the word Rapture.

The Catholic chruch is not man made it is Christ made.

 

[bigape]

Hello Templar81

Thank you very much for responding.

I don’t have all the answers and have certainly not arrived yet.
(But more often than not, people are not willing to hang around, and discuss our differences.)
--------------------------------------------------
You said....

“A person can accept Jeus and be forgiven his sins and then he can go off the rails. If he dies off the rails he is dammed if he seeks forgiveness and means it and dies straight away then he'll be alright. Evangelicals refer to a person being "saved" but no-one is saved until they are in Heaven because in lie things are so mutable.”

Well, one of the things that is being discussed here, is eternal security and all I know about it, is what the Bible says.....
John 5:24
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Here, Jesus says that if someone “believes”, they “hath everlasting life”(already have eternal life).
It’s not something that we “might” get later or something that can be taken away from us, but something we have!
------------------------
As for the term “saved”; The Bible says.....
Acts 16:29-31
V.29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
V.30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
V.31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Once again, all that is required for salvation is believing.
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said.....

“When I refered to shriving I never said anything about confessing to a priest. Ask Selene, even Catholics can pray directly to God just like anyone else, how else would they say the Pater Noster.”

The definition of “unshriving” is.....
“Without having made confession and receiving absolution.”

Now I am not a Catholic, but tell me, can a Catholic receive absolution by simply saying the Pater Noster(the Lord's Prayer)?
------------------------
Speaking of the Lord’s Prayer, or what I call the model prayer;
You know I have been saved for about 30 years and although I have memorized hundreds of verses and passages in the Bible, I have never memorized the Lord’s prayer, simply because it is a model prayer.

A Christian simply reciting a memorized prayer(even though it’s Scripture), holds no special power at all. (The most it could do would maybe bring a person some personal comfort, but that is all.)

A much more powerful prayer, would be one from your heart.
For instance if you were at the doctor, waiting for some test results, you might say something like this.....

Dear Heavenly Father; Thank you for guiding me to pray at this time, and thank you so very much for being there for me; Father, you know what is on my heart right now and the concern that I have about my health.
If it would be your will, please allow these test results to be normal, and allow everything to be alright, and I will give you the praise honor and glory.
But Father, if indeed I am sick, and going to need some treatment, please give the doctor great wisdom and skill, as he works on my body.
Once again think you LORD for all the wonderful blessings you bestow upon me every day, and help me to keep trusting you no matter what happens.
I ask all these things for your honor and glory, in Jesus name, amen.

Now this is what I would say, but it wouldn’t do any good for me to memorize these words and recite them every day.
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Finally you said.....

“Purgatory is in the bible, it is in revelations, I will find the chapters and verses for you later. Just because the word Purgatory is used doesn't mean it isn't there. Neither for that matter is the word Rapture.”

I look forward to that Scripture, but the Bible says.....
Hebrews 9:27
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

The whole idea, of a halfway place, between heaven and hell, is totally unscriptural!



Looking forward to further discussions.

 

[Templar81]

Your arguments all make sense Bigape and you've got good conviction and I admire that very much since we live in a world where traditional beliefs are so often trampld.

However now regarding the Pater Noster. Just out of interest don't you ever use the Lord's Prayer? It surprises me you don't think of it more hjighley as it wa the prayer Jesus taught his desciples and I would say is far more important than learning chunks of scripture, but that is just my two cents. Now, my point in mentioning the Lord's prayer is that Catholics do pray directly to God just like any other Christian, they don't have to use a priest or a saint, they can just pray like anyone else. The Lord's prayer is addressed "Our Father," so it is a prayer to God the father and we do it through Jesus. No one has access to the Father excdpt through the son.


With regards to the bit about people going off therails after they have genuinely in their own mind turned to Christ and made sincere repentance: surely it stands to reason that whilst things are so mutable here on earth that this person could then loose their salvation if they turn away. Now here again I espect your opinion, it being rooted in Calvinist pre-destination but I've always had a hard time with predestination, even if St Paul did adhere to it It's not St Paul that I want to follow but christ Jesus. If Jesus say's "all who believe in me shall not perish but have eternal life" then ofcourse I believe him but what if a person who has made a sincere Christian commitment then turns away and becomes an athiest. They are not believing in Jesus are they, so surely they ahve lost their salvation.

You see the reson why pre-destination theory gives me such a headache is because it seems to paint a very bleak picture and almost makes missionary work redundant. What is the point in Evangelizing anyone if God has already made the decision before that person has even been born that they will go to Hell when they die. So what is the point ins omone becoming a committed Christian only to find the gates slammed in their face on the alst judgement, which is what could happen to people if that is destined for them.

 

[bigape]

Hello agian Templar81

You said.......

“Just out of interest don't you ever use the Lord's Prayer? It surprises me you don't think of it more hjighley as it wa the prayer Jesus taught his desciples....”

No, I never “use” the Lord’s prayer.
I “use” prayer all the time(about 1000 times a day), to communicate with my heavenly Father, but the idea of simply reciting the Lord’s prayer, seems more like superstition to me, than prayer.

I truly doubt, that his disciples ever simply recited this prayer either.
(This is why we have several different versions of it, in the Gospels.)
It’s just a “model prayer”: Giving us a structure of how we aught to pray!
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said........

“With regards to the bit about people going off therails after they have genuinely in their own mind turned to Christ and made sincere repentance: surely it stands to reason that whilst things are so mutable here on earth that this person could then loose their salvation if they turn away. Now here again I espect your opinion, it being rooted in Calvinist pre-destination but I've always had a hard time with predestination,”

Although I believe in predestination, I am not a Calvinist. I could never be a Calvinist, because of how they twist Scripture.

One of the places they error, is in their rejection of predestination.
Yes, they reject Biblical predestination.

Biblical predestination, is based upon God’s foreknowledge.......
Romans 8:29
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Biblical predestination means, that because God knew the end before the beginning, than He knew every individual that was going to truly trust Christ as their Savior, and elected to save them.

While in reality, offering salvation to everyone who ever existed.
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As for “going off the rails”:
Being truly saved, means that a person is truly CHANGED by the Lord. But we still have a free will, therefore sometimes a truly born again Christian can make a mistake and fall into sin.

But this is when we find out if they are really saved; Because those who are truly saved, will be miserable in their sin, and will repent..........
Matthew 26:75
“And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.”

 

[a3m24ie]

Christians aren't sinners. Christians WERE sinners... when Paul writes, he doesn't write to the SINNERS of Ephesus he writes to the SAINTS! :)
Anyone who claims to be IN CHRIST cannot sin, because the Bible says there is NO SIN IN HIM... Christianity is not a prayer, it's not baptism...it's a daily choice that chooses godliness over ungodliness through Christ's power in us :)

1 John 3:5-9
[sup]5[/sup]You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

[sup]6[/sup]No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.[sup]

7[/sup]Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

[sup]8[/sup]the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. [sup]
[sup][/sup]9[/sup]No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Don't believe you can live sinless? Just remember Philippians 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me!" and that God promises He will never lay anything on us that is more than we can bear--He ALWAYS makes a way out of every temptation! Accept your freedom from sin!! It's yours for the taking! The devil has been tripping us up for too long making us thing "Nobody's perfect" and "Everyone sins every day" --I sure don't!

I hope I cleared things up a little :)

 

[BritGuy]

After reading some parts of the bible, out of fear of going to hell, I changed but later I went back to my sinning ways, not intentional though. I have this strong belief that God Almighty will call me one day just as He called Paul and a total change will occur in my life.

You obviously have a respect for God's truth, as Paul (Saul) did:

"I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
...I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7: 14-24)

The answer is to receive God's Spirit . . this brings His Life to you, his grace, power over sin, His ways (MUCH higher than yours).

He is now calling you to receive this!

"they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance ... For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:4, 39)

Have you seen those films about what happens in arid areas after rain?
- they come to life!
The Spirit is the rain that brings the word of God to life.

 

[bigape]

Christians aren't sinners. Christians WERE sinners... when Paul writes, he doesn't write to the SINNERS of Ephesus he writes to the SAINTS! :)
Anyone who claims to be IN CHRIST cannot sin, because the Bible says there is NO SIN IN HIM... Christianity is not a prayer, it's not baptism...it's a daily choice that chooses godliness over ungodliness through Christ's power in us :)

1 John 3:5-9
[sup]5[/sup]You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

[sup]6[/sup]No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.[sup]

7[/sup]Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

[sup]8[/sup]the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. [sup]
[sup][/sup]9[/sup]No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Don't believe you can live sinless? Just remember Philippians 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me!" and that God promises He will never lay anything on us that is more than we can bear--He ALWAYS makes a way out of every temptation! Accept your freedom from sin!! It's yours for the taking! The devil has been tripping us up for too long making us thing "Nobody's perfect" and "Everyone sins every day" --I sure don't!

I hope I cleared things up a little :)

Paul said........
1 Timothy 1:15
“This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”

Those of us, who are born again, are “sinners, saved by Grace”........
1 John 1:8-10
V.8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
V.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
V.10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Xanderoc]

The Bible says, those who receive God’s Saving Grace, are safe in Christ for ever.

Where in the Bible does it say this? Paul himself said in 1 Cor. 9:[sup]27[/sup]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Paul said if he didn't keep himself in check, he could meet the same fate as a sinner (castaway).

This is a man-made(Catholic), teaching; That there is something special about confessing our sins to a priest.
The Bible says nothing about receiving absolution from this kind of confessing.

This is true.... confession about sin to a priest ended with the Levitical priesthood. This is the basis of the Catholic order. The problem with that is they are not recognizing the sacrifice of Jesus. When Jesus died, so ended the Levitical priesthoods order. So that whole thing about confession to a priest isn't necessary.

Nowhere, does the Bible teach about purgatory.
Everyone who leaves this life, will either be eternally lost or eternally saved, depending upon their relationship with God, through Jesus Christ.

He's right, the bible teaches nothing of purgatory... That is a man made Roman pagan idea that originally came from Egypt.

On the other hand, the Bible teaches us the truth about how to be right with God and go to heaven for eternity.

Where in the Bible does it say's, when a man dies they go to heaven or hell. Nowhere does it say that. That also, is a catholic doctrine kept by the Protestants who broke away from the Catholic church. When a person dies they go to the grave. Perfect examples found in the book of Acts.
Acts 2:[sup]25[/sup]For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: [sup]26[/sup]Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

[sup]27[/sup]Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

[sup]28[/sup]Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

[sup]29[/sup]Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


I got to say if any one deserved to go to heaven, it would have been King David. He and everyone else is waiting in the grave for the gift of eternal life. Paul said,
2 Tim 4:[sup]8[/sup]Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.Do you see when the reward is given. At the Lord's return. Not in heaven before His return.

 

[a3m24ie]

Paul said........
1 Timothy 1:15
“This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”

Those of us, who are born again, are “sinners, saved by Grace”........
1 John 1:8-10
V.8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
V.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
V.10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You are correct in quoting from 1 John that none can claim he has no sin.. but this is refering to past sin, and we know this because of chapter 3 where (as I posted before) he writes of how anyone who continues to sin does not abide in Him, because in Him there is no sin.

Yet, can you not agree that we have been set free from sin? That we are no longer bound to sin, and therefore can from now on live a sinless life by the power of Jesus Christ?
Romans 6:17-19 (NASB)


But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.



Or do you defend sin and its power in our lives?

 

[bigape]

Hello xander

I said....

“The Bible says, those who receive God’s Saving Grace, are safe in Christ for ever.”

And you asked......

“Where in the Bible does it say this?”

Here is just one place........
John 10:27-29
V.27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
V.28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
V.29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.
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And you also said.....

“Paul himself said in 1 Cor. 9:27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Paul said if he didn't keep himself in check, he could meet the same fate as a sinner (castaway).”

Here Paul was not talking about losing his salvation, but destroying his life with sin.
Being a “castaway”, is talking about not being able to be used by the Lord any more;
(Being put on a shelf.)

Getting saved, gets us to heaven; Then committing our life to Christ, enables us to be used by Him to minister to others.
But regardless of how much we have done, if we mess up and go back into sin, we will not lose our salvation, but simply not be usable to the Lord any longer.

When this is the case, we will be ashamed, when we get to heaven......
1 John 2:27-29
V.27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
V.28 ¶ And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
V.29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

It would be nice, if every born again Christian was totally sold out to the Lord and lived a Godly life, but that just isn’t the case.

Remember, salvation is by Grace, not good works..........
Ephesians 2:8-9
V.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
V.9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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Next you quoted me saying........

“On the other hand, the Bible teaches us the truth about how to be right with God and go to heaven for eternity.”

Then you said........

“Where in the Bible does it say's, when a man dies they go to heaven or hell. Nowhere does it say that That also, is a catholic doctrine kept by the Protestants who broke away from the Catholic church. When a person dies they go to the grave.”

Here is just one place..........
John 14:1-3
V.1 ¶ Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
V.2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
V.3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Your not the first person I have ran into that believes in that “soul sleep” stuff, but that’s okey.

Ten seconds after you leave this life, it will be clear to you.
--------------------------------------------------
You also said........

“I got to say if any one deserved to go to heaven, it would have been King David. He and everyone else is waiting in the grave for the gift of eternal life.”

First of all nobody deserves to go to heaven, not even David.
But you are somewhat confused about where the Old Testament saints, went after death.

They went to paradise, and until the resurrection, paradise was indeed in the heart of the Earth.
But that all changed, when Jesus rose from the grave........
Ephesians 4:8
“Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.”
--------------------------------------------------
Finally you said.......

“Do you see when the reward is given. At the Lord's return. Not in heaven before His return.”

First, salvation is a “gift” not a reward. (But we will receive rewards in heaven, for faithfulness.)

You believe that we stay in the grave, until the Lord returns for the Church;
But the Bible says..........
1 Thessalonians 4:13-14
V.13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
V.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The souls of Christians will go to heaven at the moment of death, and they will be returning with Jesus at the rapture, to receive their glorified bodies.

 

[bud02]

You are correct in quoting from 1 John that none can claim he has no sin.. but this is refering to past sin, and we know this because of chapter 3 where (as I posted before) he writes of how anyone who continues to sin does not abide in Him, because in Him there is no sin.

Yet, can you not agree that we have been set free from sin? That we are no longer bound to sin, and therefore can from now on live a sinless life by the power of Jesus Christ?
Romans 6:17-19 (NASB)


But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.



Or do you defend sin and its power in our lives?

The key point is this,

But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

The desire is from the heart, the reality is the struggle in the flesh.
Paul points this out in.

Romans 7 [sup]22[/sup] For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. [sup]23[/sup] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [sup]24[/sup] O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [sup]25[/sup] I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Is Paul saying you can become perfect able to keep yourself in check, a flawless man? I think not, he compares it to a war, his flesh "members" warring against the law of my mind, in your verse the desire of a heart for Christ yet struggles with the flesh.

More evidence from Jeremiah telling of the change of the heart,
[sup]33[/sup] But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [sup]34[/sup] No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

I see God saying: For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.

I don't see Him saying you are now perfect men, able to keep your whole being in check, as Jesus did.
He says He will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more. He speaks about it in the past tense because of the work of salvation threw Christ. Jesus has paid for all my past, present and future sins. Now He will discipline me, teach me and cause me to improve as a Father does any son, but I don't believe Godliness is something that is obtainable in our own strength or desire, nor something to be desired in the same sense as God being perfect in every way. But rather the Lord manifesting Himself threw us, to ever greater degrees as we mature.

 

[Templar81]

Of course there must be a Purgatory, where else are thwe dead held before their time of judgement on the alst day? Those who skip purgotory ar the ones who go straight to Heaven and are the first resurrection and thesecond death ahs no power over them.

 

[veteran]

The key point is this,

The desire is from the heart, the reality is the struggle in the flesh.
Paul points this out in.

Romans 7 [sup]22[/sup] For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. [sup]23[/sup] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [sup]24[/sup] O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [sup]25[/sup] I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Is Paul saying you can become perfect able to keep yourself in check, a flawless man? I think not, he compares it to a war, his flesh "members" warring against the law of my mind, in your verse the desire of a heart for Christ yet struggles with the flesh.

More evidence from Jeremiah telling of the change of the heart,
[sup]33[/sup] But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [sup]34[/sup] No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

I see God saying: For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.

I don't see Him saying you are now perfect men, able to keep your whole being in check, as Jesus did.
He says He will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more. He speaks about it in the past tense because of the work of salvation threw Christ. Jesus has paid for all my past, present and future sins. Now He will discipline me, teach me and cause me to improve as a Father does any son, but I don't believe Godliness is something that is obtainable in our own strength or desire, nor something to be desired in the same sense as God being perfect in every way. But rather the Lord manifesting Himself threw us, to ever greater degrees as we mature.

I certainly don't agree with many things you've posted in other threads, especially the politics thread, but I'm forced to agree with you on this matter. That is exactly Paul's Message of the struggle for those in Christ during this world. It is a 'war'. We win many battles, and we lose some battles in weakness. But the war between our spirit and flesh will continue until we die, or until Christ returns to redeem us.

There is a danger for us if we forget about that 'war', for it can mean letting our guard down, deceiving ourselves into thinking we're no longer able to sin after having come to Christ.