The Case Against the Trinity

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BARNEY BRIGHT

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I know. You find the people whom nearly all experts disagree with that believe like you do and hang your hat on them. that is why you read the Watchtower New World Paraphrase. It is not recognized by any serious Greek scholar for its linguistic fidelity. but because they have added to teh bible to support the Arian apostasy they promulgate about teh Trinity- you buy it! I am truly sad for you.
You really don't get the patterns in the scriptures do you. The majority of the people have never been Gods people and those who say they're Christians the majority of them have always been immitation Christians so the majority who are immitation Christians who have their theology that they all agree with. So you really think I care what the majority who say they're Christians but not have to say about the NWT or The Watchtower
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Typically, whenever any type of etymology must be performed on a word in order to extract the meaning, the context has been entirely dismissed. In other words, the exegete has not a clue of the meaning of the text.
John 1:1, axiomatically, is employing the literary convention called antanaclasis,

"All scripture is spiritually discerned." Mind you that the major English translations of the Bible and in fact all 61 translations listed in the Bible Gateway, confirm that John 1:1 states that the Word (Jesus) existed in the beginning, the Word was with God and the Word was God. You would be going up against literally thousands of brilliant scholars, who labored for years, over centuries. In essence, the Holy Spirit guided these scholars to arrive at many versions of the Bible that for the most part say the same thing - especially concerning this particular verse.
It is likely that because you do not believe that Jesus is God or the Holy Spirit is a person, whom the Father sent (another Helper and our Comforter), that you have in your heart, denied this truth about God, that you may have balsphemed the Holy Spirit - which would be why He does not live in you nor guide you to all truth?
 

Wrangler

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Mind you that the major English translations of the Bible and in fact all 61 translations listed in the Bible Gateway, confirm that John 1:1 states that the Word (Jesus) existed in the beginning, the Word was with God and the Word was God.

I have no idea where you get the idea from that 61 translations affirm trinitarian interpretation of Scripture. John 1:1 does not even have Jesus in there. However, it is typical for trinitarians to read what is not there. I've posted several times the proper perspective to understand John 1:1 comes from Moses.


15 He will raise up from among your own people a prophet who will be like me. Listen to him. 16 This is just what you asked Him for on the day you gathered at Mount Horeb: “Don’t make me listen to the voice of the Eternal my God anymore! And don’t make me look at that blazing fire! I’ll die!” 17 The Eternal told me, “They’re right. 18 I’ll send them another prophet like you from among their own people. I’ll put My words in the mouth of this prophet who will tell them everything I command him to say.
Deuteronomy 18:15-18 (VOICE)


Another mistake trinitarians want to make is to pretend the beginning of John is the same beginning as Genesis. It is not. It is the beginning of God reconciling all things to himself. Ever read Christianity's end game?


23 But this is how it will happen: the Anointed’s awakening is the firstfruits. It will be followed by the resurrection of all those who belong to Him at His coming, 24 and then the end will come. After He has conquered His enemies and shut down every rule and authority vying for power, He will hand over the Kingdom to God, the Father of all that is. 25 And He must reign as King until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last hostile power to be destroyed is death itself. 27 All this will happen to fulfill the Scripture that says, “You placed everything on earth beneath His feet.” (Although it says “everything,” it is clear that this does not also pertain to God, who created everything and made it all subject to Him.) 28 Then, when all creation has taken its rightful place beneath God’s sovereign reign, the Son will follow, subject to the Father who exalted Him over all created things; then God will be God over all.
1 Cor 15:23-28 (VOICE)

The Son will follow subject to God. This is no kind of trinitarian co-equality but hierarchy.
 

Wrangler

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Trinitarians forget one of Jesus' last words on the cross ... “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?” My God is Jesus' God, the only God.

For those who need a language refresher 'you' and 'me' are not synonyms but refer to different beings - except possibly in trinity land. God never refers to Jesus as God.
 

101G

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"All scripture is spiritually discerned." Mind you that the major English translations of the Bible and in fact all 61 translations listed in the Bible Gateway, confirm that John 1:1 states that the Word (Jesus) existed in the beginning, the Word was with God and the Word was God. You would be going up against literally thousands of brilliant scholars, who labored for years, over centuries. In essence, the Holy Spirit guided these scholars to arrive at many versions of the Bible that for the most part say the same thing - especially concerning this particular verse.
It is likely that because you do not believe that Jesus is God or the Holy Spirit is a person, whom the Father sent (another Helper and our Comforter), that you have in your heart, denied this truth about God, that you may have balsphemed the Holy Spirit - which would be why He does not live in you nor guide you to all truth?
Good point, because in John 1:1 the verse itself tells us that God is not three person..... but the same one person as JESUS who is the Holy Spirit.. here's why, notice the highlight and underline. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
as said, (the Word, Jesus, the Son) was, was, was, "WITH" God? that right there just told us that Jesus the Son is the SAME person who is God there in the Scripture.
let's see it clearly. Jesus is the First and the Last.. Revelation 2:8 "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;" now we know that this is Jesus ... right, and Jesus is ONE PERSON.. right. now this. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
the First "WITH" the Last is ONE PERSON, and Jesus, the same One person in John 1:1 as well in Revelation 2:8 is ONE PERSON. the First and the Last is the LORD, and Jesus as Son is the Lord. so, is there two "LORD, and two "Lord?' of course not. there is only ONE first and Last, but the first and the Last is LORD, the Father, in Isaiah 41:4, and in Revelation 2:8 the First and the last is Lord, the Son.

is this two seperate person?..... no, for if the Word in John 1:1 is, (Jesus the Son), with God, whom many say is Father, then it's the same one Person. and here's why.
in John 1:1, the Son is "WITH" the Father, correct?. well in Isaiah 41:4, the First is with Last the Last, can that be two person? no way we have proven that, because Jesus one person is the First and the Last, Revelation 2:8.

but one thing., one overlooked, listen, in Isaiah 41:4, the First is "WITH" the last... correct.... now this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." BINGO

the First who is with the Last is ALSO the same one Person. as in John 1:1 the Son, (the Word), who is "WITH" the Father, is "ALSO" the Father, the same one Person.
we suggest one read those scriptures closley, again. "With" there is "ALSO" the same one Person.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Wrangler

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So, who is Jesus by your estimation? is He the Lord? or is He a lord?

I await your answer.

I've already answered this repeatedly. Jesus is the Savior of the world, the chosen Servant of God.

Jesus is the Son of God, in that He is come in the flesh.

Wrong! Judas of Iscariot is not Iscariot of Judas. Hunter is the son of Joe Biden. This does not make Hunter <Joe Biden>.

Jesus is the adopted son of God as we all are. This makes no man God.
 

101G

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I've already answered this repeatedly. Jesus is the Savior of the world, the chosen Servant of God.
first thanks for the reply, second, if Jesus is the, "the Savior of the world", which he is, and the, "the chosen Servant of God", well who is this saviour of the world? Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you." so who is this "saviour?".

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

justbyfaith

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I've already answered this repeatedly. Jesus is the Savior of the world, the chosen Servant of God.
You didn't answer the question that time...you are evading the question.

Is Jesus Christ the Lord? or is He "a lord"?
 

justbyfaith

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Wrong! Judas of Iscariot is not Iscariot of Judas. Hunter is the son of Joe Biden. This does not make Hunter <Joe Biden>.

Jesus is the adopted son of God as we all are. This makes no man God.
I would only say that what applies to man does not necessarily apply to God.
 

justbyfaith

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Somehow I went out of the loop while others kept posting. It may take some time to catch up...and I may just decide to let it go...which does not mean that anything declared by anti-Trinitarians in the meantime, have no answer.
 

DNB

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Wrong on so many levels.

John 1:1 is not an example of anatnaclasis. John did not know Greek rhetoric to use such a device. Also no known scholars that I have read say it isthis.

Secondly all the examples of antanaclasis are simply passages where in English we have one word with more than one meaning. like live.

1. to exist.
2. where one abides
3. actual and not recorded.

So you are wrong. But I welcome you to show some liunguistic scholares give the reason why they think John 1:1 is an example of an antanaclasis.

Givent he fact that the nouns are different forms of the same word and one is accusative and one is nominative lets us know they are not of different definitions

Also why do they not say teh Word is also antanaclasis as well? that appearss both times in the nominative.
The context should define John's meaning and intent.
A literal interpretation leads to a chaotic conclusion - a god-man, and a biune God (prove otherwise), that is both Him, and with Him, and became flesh while still being Spirit.
Why do you prefer such a radical and implausible conclusion, over a poetic form of stating that God's wisdom and foreknowledge are omniscient, and His sovereignty is unchallenged - despite man's behaviour.

Sorry, like I said, I don't dissect sentences in an etymological fashion, when the context impresses the truth upon us. So, I won't address the nominative nor accusative. Wisdom elucidates that John 1:1 is antanaclasis. Now whether or not the reader or the author is aware of the terminology is incidental, like any other literary device, we are familiar with the technique from experience and every day speech (hyperbole, personification, anthropomorphism, analogy, metaphor, allegory, ...)
 

justbyfaith

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Justbyfaith said:
Because there is only one true God; and therefore if He is not the true God He is a false god; if He be a god.[/Quote\]

The scriptures say the Judges of Israel were God's and that's The True God calling them gods since the scriptures are inspired by God. So all you showing me is that you believe you have the right to judge God. Me since the True God calls the Judges of Israel God's I'm going to believe him and not you. The True God has the authority to call someone a god. Now I certainly agree that some who were called gods in scripture were and are false gods, but that isn't true when God said the Judges of Israel were gods. So there is a True God and those he calls gods and the True God isn't wrong for doing so.

Those who believe in Christ are members of the body of Christ and therefore are included in the Person of Elohim as the Holy Ghost dwells in each one of them in all His fulness (1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 3:19-20); they are each one of them, one with Him and therefore each one of them, individually, have the Holy Ghost dwelling in them in all His fulness.

Therefore when Jesus refers to them as the only true Elohim, he is not referring to them as false gods.

He is referring to each one of them, as being one with the one true God.

Only Satan and his children are for the Trinity.

And that is a lie from the pit of hell. Actually the opposite is true (only Satan and his children are against the Trinity).

See how assertions work?

Sure. The question is, who is going to have the last word?
 

DNB

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Well it is utter nonsense to those who have been deceived by crafty wolves who devour the flock!

But given that in JOhn 1:1 the first appearance of God has the definite article it refers to a specific person. and as the definite article does not appear in teh second appearance it is describing the essence, nature and character of a person! That is why Jesus could say honestly if anyone sees Him, they see God and that He and His Father are one (not in union as the NWMT wrongly translates)

Teh fact He is called God and there is only one true god- would make Him a false god ! there is no- well he can be called God because He reflects God- that is the utter blasphemy nonsense!
Jesus is called Jehovah, He is called Lord, He is called God, He is also the first and last! John called HIm equal to God and Thomas declared Him as God! So didn't Paul.

And so didn't Jesus when He called HImself the "Iam" (Jehovah) That is what Gods' Inpsired Word teaches.

It is the machinations of men that teach differently. and this teaching is old. It started with the Gnostics and origen then Arius and repicked up by the unitarians, then the IBS, then popularized by the zealous IBS adherent Charles Taze Russel.
You made countless presumptions. Jesus never, ever called himself YHWH. That is a trinitarian delusion. There is not a court in the world that would allow such ambiguous and disparate evidence, to be grounds for a man claiming to be the almighty, transcendent God.
God is spirit, no one can see Him, Jesus obviously meant something different, obviously.
All Christians are exhorted to become one with Jesus and God, in the exact same manner that Jesus is one with God - elementary spiritualism - David & Jonathon were one, man & wife become one, the 3 Musketeers were one.
 
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justbyfaith

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Jesus never, ever called himself YHWH.
He called Himself the Father.

Jhn 14:7, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11, Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
 

101G

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He called Himself the Father.

Jhn 14:7, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11, Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
a GOOD diversity scripture.... :D YIKES!

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

justbyfaith

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a GOOD diversity scripture.... :D YIKES!

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
Like I have said, @101G, I do not feel that I am in disagreement with you in what I believe, in essence.

I just use different terminology to explain my understanding that is more acceptable to Trinitarians.
 

DNB

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He carried the sins mankind for all time - at least 10 billion people having each thousands of sins. Only God can do that.
No, this predicate is demonstrably incorrect. You cannot quantify man's sin, then try to make an argument for the necessity of an omnipotent God to eradicate them. Countless sins have been committed after the crucifixion, clearly no one is counting, nor does Christ's passion have any efficacy over them. Christ's death ended the Law, which held all men in bondage. Once the Law had been fulfilled (not a jot or tittle will fail) God was judicially able to abrogate the Law, and implement a new Covenant - faith. It's nonsense to say that Christ paid our price which was eternal death, not temporal death for 3 days.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him." Col. 1:16
It makes no sense to understand these expressions by Paul to mean that Christ both created all things, and that he created them for himself - neither for the Father or Holy Spirit. What kind of co-equality is that?
'By him' means 'via him', with him in mind, for him as God's precedential creation.

Jesus is divine. HE said, "I and the Father are one" ... " If you've seen Me, you have seen the Father."
God is spirit, no one can see Him, Jesus obviously meant something different, obviously.
All Christians are exhorted to become one with Jesus and God, in the exact same manner that Jesus is one with God - elementary spiritualism - David & Jonathon were one, man & wife become one, the 3 Musketeers were one.

Didn't imply that you were, just used their non-trinitarian theology as an example of how it doesn't work concerning a basic essential, like baptism.
Cool!
 
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