The Case Against the Trinity

[101G]

Like I have said, @101G, I do not feel that I am in disagreement with you in what I believe, in essence.

I just use different terminology to explain my understanding that is more acceptable to Trinitarians.

alright you got my attention, I'll keep an eye on you...... (smile). so go and get em......

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[DNB]

He called Himself the Father.

Jhn 14:7, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11, Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Never, ever, ...nor do i want to see your proof-text.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Those who believe in Christ are members of the body of Christ and therefore are included in the Person of Elohim as the Holy Ghost dwells in each one of them in all His fulness (1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 3:19-20); they are each one of them, one with Him and therefore each one of them, individually, have the Holy Ghost dwelling in them in all His fulness.

Therefore when Jesus refers to them as the only true Elohim, he is not referring to them as false gods.

He is referring to each one of them, as being one with the one true God.



And that is a lie from the pit of hell. Actually the opposite is true (only Satan and his children are against the Trinity).



Sure. The question is, who is going to have the last word?

What Jesus said to the Pharisees when he said to them, isn't it written you are gods, Jesus was quoting Psalm 82:1, 6, at John 10:34,35 where Elohim is used of men, human judges in Israel.They were gods in their capacity as the authority and representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Similarly Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16, and when the True God said Moses served as God to Aaron God wasn't saying Moses was a false god. The plain simple fact is when someone represents God in some special way the True God has the authority to called them gods. We understand there is only one True God who is the creator and source of all life, his name his Jehovah.

 

[justbyfaith]

If any god is a true god, it is because he is one with the true God.

Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the Elohim.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

If any god is a true god, it is because he is one with the true God.

Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the Elohim.

Show in Scripture where Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the Elohim. I know that in the scriptures the True God declared Jesus the living cornerstone of a spiritual house made up of those redeemed by him, built upon the truth of the Gospel and sustained by the power of the True Gods Holy Spirit. Those who trust Jesus as Gods savior/Messiah are this building, the congregation. I've seen that Jesus is the cornerstone of our faith, but not the cornerstone of Jehovah God.

 

[Taken]

The Case Against the Trinity
OP^

Eh! No case AGAINST God...or His Names, Titles, Descriptions...

He IS HE, ONE, AM that HE IS.

•The Creator has:
Names, Titles, Descriptions.
•The Creator's Word has a Name, Titles, Descriptions.
•The Creator's Power has a Name, Titles, Descriptions.

(And BTW, one individual man, has multiple names, titles, descriptions, parts...and is still ONE single individual man).

Praise and Glory to; HE...
Lord God Almighty

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Again, wrong. Jesus WAS the only begotten son of God - as all first borns are.

Sorry, Jesus still is the only begotten son of God! He lives!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The context should define John's meaning and intent.
A literal interpretation leads to a chaotic conclusion - a god-man, and a biune God (prove otherwise), that is both Him, and with Him, and became flesh while still being Spirit.
Why do you prefer such a radical and implausible conclusion, over a poetic form of stating that God's wisdom and foreknowledge are omniscient, and His sovereignty is unchallenged - despite man's behaviour.

Sorry, like I said, I don't dissect sentences in an etymological fashion, when the context impresses the truth upon us. So, I won't address the nominative nor accusative. Wisdom elucidates that John 1:1 is antanaclasis. Now whether or not the reader or the author is aware of the terminology is incidental, like any other literary device, we are familiar with the technique from experience and every day speech (hyperbole, personification, anthropomorphism, analogy, metaphor, allegory, ...)

It only leads to chaos to those who think with just human reasoning.

as it says in proverbs:

Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

And the context does define th emeaing! The Word was with THE God ( aperson) and the Word was GOD (nature, essence) this is not a poetic form of writing sorry. but that is error.

And no it is not antaclasis. the wisdom that makes it clear to you is a fog.

A famous example of antanaclasis is Benjamin Franklin's statement that: "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." In this example, the first time "hang" appears it means "stay" or "stand," while the second time it refers to being "hanged."
https://www.litcharts.com/literary-...ple of antanaclasis,refers to being "hanged."
Antanaclasis - Definition and Examples | LitCharts

God does not have multiple definitions like hang does.

And if one does not dissect a sentence etymologically, they hve no way of understanding what is said. we all do ti either on paper or in our minds.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You made countless presumptions. Jesus never, ever called himself YHWH. That is a trinitarian delusion. There is not a court in the world that would allow such ambiguous and disparate evidence, to be grounds for a man claiming to be the almighty, transcendent God.
God is spirit, no one can see Him, Jesus obviously meant something different, obviously.
All Christians are exhorted to become one with Jesus and God, in the exact same manner that Jesus is one with God - elementary spiritualism - David & Jonathon were one, man & wife become one, the 3 Musketeers were one.

Yes He did call Himself Yahweh.

When He declared "Before Abrahma was---Yahweh"
" I and the Father are one"
"Those who see me, have seen the Father"
John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

And even Yahweh called Him Yahweh in Isaiah 44.

And you confuse the fact that when Jesus came to earth, His Father was still in heaven. God the Father is God of God the Son. that is position, but Jesus is equally divine as His Father is! Jesus is not th eFather and the Father is not Jesus but both are equally divine, though have a separate position of exaltation.

And courts will rule in my favor based on what the Word of God says!

Phil. 2:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Too bad you don't do etymology- for if you did, you would realize this verse says Jesus existed as God with God, Just like John 1:1

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You really don't get the patterns in the scriptures do you. The majority of the people have never been Gods people and those who say they're Christians the majority of them have always been immitation Christians so the majority who are immitation Christians who have their theology that they all agree with. So you really think I care what the majority who say they're Christians but not have to say about the NWT or The Watchtower

Well I didn't know God gave you the role to determine who is and who is not a true believer.

But I do know that many who claim th ename of Christ never got saved. Especially those who deny the physical resurrection! As Paul said they are still in their sin, and their faith is in vain.

I know you don't care. but you should care about the belief systems of those whom you rely on! Even atheist greek scholars, who don't recognize Jesus, admit the bible says Jesus is God! They just don't believe it!

And even the minority in cults who think they are the true church and isolate themselves, also tend to be imitation christians for two reasons.

They reject the physical resurrection of Jesus. And they deny the deity of jesus.

And jsut to let you know- the apostasy that is growing in Christendom is more and more people are rejcting the diety of Jesus and denying His physical resurrection and rejecting an eternal hell! Not because they study the scriptures, but because they don't!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You can deny that Jesus was resurrected an immortal incorruptible being who is a life giving spirit but the scriptures say he is. So that means again you deny what's written down about Jesus when he was resurrected from the dead. Seems you're the one who is denying the scriptures concerning the resurrection of Jesus.

I never denied that. I just said that the body that Jesus died in is the body He was stood up again in (you know the definition of resurrection).

He is the first fruits of teh resurrection and the fleshy body was transformed just like it said in SCripture.

God did not destroy Jesus body - He transformed it as He will me and all true believers when we are resurrected at the Rapture.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Well I didn't know God gave you the role to determine who is and who is not a true believer.

But I do know that many who claim th ename of Christ never got saved. Especially those who deny the physical resurrection! As Paul said they are still in their sin, and their faith is in vain.

I know you don't care. but you should care about the belief systems of those whom you rely on! Even atheist greek scholars, who don't recognize Jesus, admit the bible says Jesus is God! They just don't believe it!

And even the minority in cults who think they are the true church and isolate themselves, also tend to be imitation christians for two reasons.

They reject the physical resurrection of Jesus. And they deny the deity of jesus.

And jsut to let you know- the apostasy that is growing in Christendom is more and more people are rejcting the diety of Jesus and denying His physical resurrection and rejecting an eternal hell! Not because they study the scriptures, but because they don't!

All these things you've said above you're talking about what the world has to say. I understand what the belief systems of this world believe in and people such as atheists and greek scholars will say, that the Bible says Jesus is God. But what they're really saying is what people like you who have taught the world that the Bible says the true God is a trinitarian God. The scriptures don't actually say what people like you say, that the True God is a trinitarian God. There's a difference between what the scriptures are saying and your interpretation of the scriptures. The scriptures say that God sent his Only Begotten Son to the world of mankind. Because Jesus is the Christ the Messiah that God is using to save mankind. Even after Jesus is raised from the dead with a immortal incorruptible body and he became a life giving spirit, the scriptures tell us that Jesus said he has a Father and a God. He also said this person who was his Father and God is our Father and God. Anyone who has truly read and studied the scriptures know that the True God has no Father or God that is his Father and God. So argue all you want Ronald. I'm going to believe what the True God inspired men to write down not your interpretation of what God inspired men to write down.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I never denied that. I just said that the body that Jesus died in is the body He was stood up again in (you know the definition of resurrection).

He is the first fruits of teh resurrection and the fleshy body was transformed just like it said in SCripture.

God did not destroy Jesus body - He transformed it as He will me and all true believers when we are resurrected at the Rapture.

You say you know the truth about the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but you say that Jesus was resurrected with the same body. The problem with what you're saying here is that at 1 Corinthians 15:45 it tells us that Jesus became a life giving spirit. Also if Jesus was resurrected with the exact same body then why is it that many times when Jesus appeared to his disciples after his resurrection they didn't recognize him, except by something he said or did not by his physical appearance.
But let's go along with what you say you believe, that the body that Jesus sacrificed was transformed, not that I agree with this, but you're still saying that Jesus wasn't resurrected with the same body he had before he was sacrificed because you're admitting that the body Jesus had wasn't a immortal incorruptible body before he was sacrificed so since you're admitting that, then you are saying he didn't have the exact same body that he sacrificed. Because the body he had before he was sacrificed was mortal and corruptible but the body he had when resurrected was immortal and incorruptible and we have to agree with what 1Corinthians 15:45 that after his resurrection Jesus is now a life giving Spirit. Being a life giving spirit helps us to understand why the Apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ didn't recognize his physical appearance when he appeared to them. I honestly don't think they all forgot what Jesus looked liked physically after just three days. So why is it that the Apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ didn't recognize Jesus immediately when he appeared to them on so many occasions. Plus Jesus was only seen by his Apostles and disciples after his resurrection, no unbelievers saw him.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I have no idea where you get the idea from that 61 translations affirm trinitarian interpretation of Scripture. John 1:1 does not even have Jesus in there. However, it is typical for trinitarians to read what is not there. I've posted several times the proper perspective to understand John 1:1 comes from Moses.


15 He will raise up from among your own people a prophet who will be like me. Listen to him. 16 This is just what you asked Him for on the day you gathered at Mount Horeb: “Don’t make me listen to the voice of the Eternal my God anymore! And don’t make me look at that blazing fire! I’ll die!” 17 The Eternal told me, “They’re right. 18 I’ll send them another prophet like you from among their own people. I’ll put My words in the mouth of this prophet who will tell them everything I command him to say.
Deuteronomy 18:15-18 (VOICE)

Another mistake trinitarians want to make is to pretend the beginning of John is the same beginning as Genesis. It is not. It is the beginning of God reconciling all things to himself. Ever read Christianity's end game?


23 But this is how it will happen: the Anointed’s awakening is the firstfruits. It will be followed by the resurrection of all those who belong to Him at His coming, 24 and then the end will come. After He has conquered His enemies and shut down every rule and authority vying for power, He will hand over the Kingdom to God, the Father of all that is. 25 And He must reign as King until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last hostile power to be destroyed is death itself. 27 All this will happen to fulfill the Scripture that says, “You placed everything on earth beneath His feet.” (Although it says “everything,” it is clear that this does not also pertain to God, who created everything and made it all subject to Him.) 28 Then, when all creation has taken its rightful place beneath God’s sovereign reign, the Son will follow, subject to the Father who exalted Him over all created things; then God will be God over all.
1 Cor 15:23-28 (VOICE)

The Son will follow subject to God. This is no kind of trinitarian co-equality but hierarchy.

You lack understanding of who Jesus is! Deut.18:18 is part of the story. Jesus was a prophet, like Moses, and the Father gave Him a mission, words to speak but that is not all Jesus was. He was also our High Priest and Sacrificial Lamb and much more. Which prophet in history could say, "I and the Father one" ... "If you've seen Me, you have seen the Father", or "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life"; "I am the resurrection ...", "I am the Good Shepherd ...", "I am from above ...",
"I am the Door...", "I am the Light of the world ...", "I am the Bread of Life ...", "I am He ...", "before Abraham, I am", "I am the Vine ...' "I am the Alpha and the Omega".
No other prophet said those things because they did not have those qualities of God.
Isaiah 9:6 describes someone who is more than a prophet. "For unto us a child is born, Unto to us a Son is given; And the government will be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
So you deny those verses? Or maybe you'll seek to distort them in order to fit them into your theology somehow. This is the typical tactic for the adherent to false theology - find the scriptures that create a conflict and change their meanings!
Rev. 1:13-15 identifies Jesus as the Alpha and Omega.
He is the "I Am" who Moses spoke to on Mt. Horeb" "And God said to Moses, 'I AM Who I Am" ... "Say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you." Ex. 3:14. That was an introduction (somewhat mysterious to Moses), but God would later fill in the blanks in the Book of John, with all the "I am" descriptions above.
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed IN THE FORM OF GOD, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond servant, and being made in the likeness of men." Phil. 2:5-7.
To this day, man does not grasp this concept, it is and was difficult, so Jesus did not regard the issue as pressing, it would take time. Jesus showed His glory to them during His ministry on the mount of tranfiguration - but they still didn't get it. His disciples didnt get it until after they saw him resurrected. Doubting Thomas said, "My Lord, My God."
"For I am the Lord Thy God, the Holy one of Israel, thy Savior ..." Is. 43:3
Jesus is the Savior and God or do you think this is a reference to the Father speaking?

"I, even I, am the Lord, beside me there is no savior." Is. 43:11
If this is not the pre-incarnate Jesus speaking through Isaiah then are we to believe that there are two saviors?
"I am the Lord, your Holy one, the Creator of Israel, your KING." Is. 43:15
So, who is referred as King? Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is God. The Father sends the Spirit, another Helper, the Comforter, Whom has all the qualities of a person and God.
"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that HE may abide with you forever - the SPIRIT of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells in you and will be in you." John 15:16-17
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you."
John 14:26
We see three in One in Matt. 3:16, 17, when Jesus was baptized.
1 Peter 1:2 shows also a distinction: "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling if the blood of Jesus Christ." 3 persons= 1 God.
We are baptized into three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
"For through Him we both have access by One Spirit to the Father."
3 persons = 1 God

1, 2, 3, its easy as do, re, mi, A, B, C, thats how easy love can be.

 

[justbyfaith]

Show in Scripture where Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the Elohim. I know that in the scriptures the True God declared Jesus the living cornerstone of a spiritual house made up of those redeemed by him, built upon the truth of the Gospel and sustained by the power of the True Gods Holy Spirit. Those who trust Jesus as Gods savior/Messiah are this building, the congregation. I've seen that Jesus is the cornerstone of our faith, but not the cornerstone of Jehovah God.

In Christ dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9).

In us (if we have received the blessing) dwelleth all the fulness of the Father (Ephesians 4:6), the Son (Colossians 1:27) and the Holy Ghost (2 Timothy 1:14)....see Ephesians 3:19-20.

 

[justbyfaith]

You say you know the truth about the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but you say that Jesus was resurrected with the same body. The problem with what you're saying here is that at 1 Corinthians 15:45 it tells us that Jesus became a life giving spirit.

This happened at the juncture of Luke 23:46.

That Jesus was raised bodily from the dead is evident in John 2:19-21.

but you're still saying that Jesus wasn't resurrected with the same body he had before he was sacrificed because you're admitting that the body Jesus had wasn't a immortal incorruptible body before he was sacrificed so since you're admitting that, then you are saying he didn't have the exact same body that he sacrificed.

See 2 Corinthians 5:4 for my take on this. The mortality of Jesus' physical body was swallowed up by life. Jesus did not become unclothed; but He became further clothed. This means that He added His resurrection body to his former physical body when He rose from the dead.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

In Christ dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9).

In us (if we have received the blessing) dwelleth all the fulness of the Father (Ephesians 4:6), the Son (Colossians 1:27) and the Holy Ghost (2 Timothy 1:14)....see Ephesians 3:19-20.

The fullness of the divine quality that's in Jesus is in him because it pleases the True God for him to have that fullness. Noone gives the True God his divine quality, he has it because he's the True God, Jesus has whatever fullness he has because it pleases the True God for his Only Begotten Son to have this divine quality. So no justbyfaith this isn't proof that Jesus is the cornerstone of the True God. Ephesians 4:4-6 is talking about there is that there is one true Christian congregation, which is compared to a human body. Jesus Christ being the “head” of this spiritual body.—Eph 1:22, 23.
This congregation is the only congregation that has God’s holy spirit.—1Co 12:13; 2Co 5:5.
It has one hope which in this context, “one hope” refers specifically to the heavenly hope of anointed Christians. (Heb 3:1) Additionally, when the anointed serve as heavenly kings and priests, all mankind who desire to serve God and who exercise faith will be “set free from enslavement to corruption” and will enjoy “the glorious freedom of the children of God.”—Ro 8:20, 21, 24.
This congregation has one Lord: That is, Jesus Christ.—1Co 8:6.
one faith: That is, the one acceptable way of worshipping God. This faith is based on the one message about Christ that Christians preach.—Joh 3:16; 4:23, 24; Ro 10:16, 17; 2Co 4:13.
This true congregation with Jesus as head has one baptism and one God and Father of all.
None of this is saying Jesus is the cornerstone of the True God. He's the cornerstone of the spiritual temple and congregation and cornerstone of our faith yes. I see nothing in this that you have posted as saying Jesus is the cornerstone of the True God.

 

[justbyfaith]

None of this is saying Jesus is the cornerstone of the True God. He's the cornerstone of the spiritual temple

The temple is a habitation of God through the Spirit, Ephesians 2:21-22.

 

[Wrangler]

Sorry, Jesus still is the only begotten son of God! He lives!

Are you really unaware of the Good News of Jesus Christ, that like him, we are the adopted, chosen elect children of God, who Jesus called us his brothers and sisters?!

Oh my.

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you really unaware of the Good News of Jesus Christ, that like him, we are the adopted, chosen elect children of God, who Jesus called us his brothers and sisters?!

Oh my.

The gospel of Jesus Christ, in a nutshell, is contained in John 3:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.