Something That I Just Don't Understand

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JesusLovesYou

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As a spinoff thread to my LGBTQ thread there is something I need to know. Why do a lot of Christians treat members of the LGBTQ community and people who commit suicide as guilty of committing the unforgiveable sin? Newsflash! If either of those things was the unforgiveable sin Jesus would have come right out and said that it was but no the only unforgiveable sin is rejecting Christ and having an unrepentant heart until you die so I fail to understand why Christians automatically assume that if you're gay or you commit suicide you're going to Hell. Especially since you can bet that these people are already struggling enough as it is and a lot of them want help for it but a lot of the time they don't get it and hence why they take their own lives as sad as it is. :'(

First of all, let me correct you. Jesus spoke against Sodom in the context of the Israelites’ unbelief. In Matthew 11, Jesus says
As a spinoff thread to my LGBTQ thread there is something I need to know. Why do a lot of Christians treat members of the LGBTQ community and people who commit suicide as guilty of committing the unforgiveable sin? Newsflash! If either of those things was the unforgiveable sin Jesus would have come right out and said that it was but no the only unforgiveable sin is rejecting Christ and having an unrepentant heart until you die so I fail to understand why Christians automatically assume that if you're gay or you commit suicide you're going to Hell. Especially since you can bet that these people are already struggling enough as it is and a lot of them want help for it but a lot of the time they don't get it and hence why they take their own lives as sad as it is. :'(

Actually, Jesus did speak against Sodom in the context of unbelief. In Matthew 11, Jesus says that “it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom”, because if the miracles that were done in Capernaum—the town where the relatives of Jesus were from—would have been done in Sodom, Sodom would have still been standing. Jesus condemns what the sodomites did, although He accuses the unbelievers of His time even more. That being said, when the Bible says that God does not want anyone to perish but wants that everyone to repent, I believe with my whole heart that it refers to homosexuals as well. God offers the chance to repent to everyone. If there are so many who were able to leave that lifestyle behind, there is no doubt that it can be done. And with regard to any sin, as long as one seeks help as soon as they realize that they need it, things can come back to normal.
 
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Truther

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My Bible says that a person who hates another is guilty of murder in his heart. Therefore hate speech against LGBTQ people is equal to murder according to the Scripture. Therefore I would find it easy to believe that LGBTQ folks who receive Christ may get into heaven before the religious hypocrite haters of them.
They need to repent and stop that lifestyle or no heaven...


Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. ... Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
 

Truther

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First of all, let me correct you. Jesus spoke against Sodom in the context of the Israelites’ unbelief. In Matthew 11, Jesus says


Actually, Jesus did speak against Sodom in the context of unbelief. In Matthew 11, Jesus says that “it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom”, because if the miracles that were done in Capernaum—the town where the relatives of Jesus were from—would have been done in Sodom, Sodom would have still been standing. Jesus condemns what the sodomites did, although He accuses the unbelievers of His time even more. That being said, when the Bible says that God does not want anyone to perish but wants that everyone to repent, I believe with my whole heart that it refers to homosexuals as well. God offers the chance to repent to everyone. If there are so many who were able to leave that lifestyle behind, there is no doubt that it can be done. And with regard to any sin, as long as one seeks help as soon as they realize that they need it, things can come back to normal.
Amen, we choose who we sleep with. We don't have to sleep with anyone or anything. It is a choice, good or bad.
 
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Paul Christensen

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Has anyone here ever witnessed to gays
I have . And beleive me , they put up such a victim card . specially when through doctrine you start to prove their error .
How to silence a voice and push an agenda , THEY KNOW very well .
And i am kind to everyone . everyone . But i am telling us they often do hyper play the victim card .
It gets pulled out when you start breaking through their defense with doctrines . And they cannot give an answer back .
AND often they have tried to use the new testament against me . But when i show very clearly
And they have no words , the victim card gets pulled out right fast . It does two things . the victim card
makes them seem just and the one who is simply helping them , seem like a monster . IT works well . Yall
if we love folks we speak truth . If not then allow them to be feel saved and die in their sin . MANY
gays go to church Folks . THEY just find a church that accepts the sin . AND we all better know that makes that church false .
The trouble is that the "witnessing" is in the form of criticising their gay lifestyle instead of presenting Jesus as Saviour to them. Saying, "You must give up your gay lifestyle before you can become a Christian" is presenting a false gospel of works. "Witness" zealots tend to forget that "we are saved by grace through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any should boast." And that Paul said, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ because it is the power of God that leads to salvation to those who believe it."

My view is to get a gay person converted to Christ, and then leave it to the Holy Spirit to do the rest. At the judgment, God is not going to ask, Did you give up being gay?" He is going to ask, "Did you receive my Son Jesus Christ as Saviour?'
 
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Paul Christensen

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We should promote sound doctrine here on CB, real Christian doctrine. Perhaps you should explain how to bring a gay person to salvation without them feeling hated and while not promoting their gay sins.
Present the gospel of Christ without any reference to their gay lifestyle. I would tell a gay person that God is not worried by their lifestyle. He is more concerned that he or she escapes condemnation in hell by receiving Christ as Saviour. Changes in lifestyle is the domain of the Holy Spirit as part of the transformation and sanctification process after embracing Christ as Saviour.

A "christian" zealot can block someone from coming to Christ because of his or her discriminatory attitude toward gays.
 
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Paul Christensen

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Often the first line of defense you will hear is , I WAS BORN this way , GOD made me like this .
They try to even use science to back that up , as well as a false love version of God .
But here is the kicker . Even before i was drawn to Christ , even when i was a young teenager .
I knew the I was born this way , was a lie .
See , that was back in the eighties . And the lie they were born like this was really taking root into the world .
I remember scratching my head when i heard that .
WOULD anyone like to know why i was scratching my head in unbelief . Even though i was not yet a follower of Christ .
Because in my own family we have had some who are gay .
SO how did i know that this was a lie . Because as i said some within my own family are gay .
AND GUESS WHAT , if its genetic , IF it is the way we are born
HOW COME my IDENTICAL TWIN UNCLES , one was gay the other STRAIGHT . YEAH .
I knew this was a lie many many years ago . And i got identical twins all over my family
I myself am an identical triplet . SO how come some are gay and some are straight . I MEAN IDENTICAL TWINS and etc
ARE GENTICALLY IDENTICAL . yeah . exactly . This is a lie .
I like Ray Comfort's way of showing non-Christians how they are breaking the Ten Commandments through simple every-day actions like taking an office pen home (theft), saying "OMG" (blasphemy), looking with lust at a person (adultery in the heart). He doesn't have to mention gay issues. The fact that the person has broken three commandments is enough to show that they are not a good person and usually, when the person is questioned about what is going to happen to them at the judgment, they usually answer that they would most probably go to hell. It is at that point where the gospel of Christ is presented to them as the way to have Jesus become their Saviour and defence lawyer.

If the person says that they are gay, then the question is the same as for a hetrosexual: "Have you ever looked at someone with lust on your mind?" It doesn't matter whether they are straight or gay, the outcome is the same, they are adulterers in heart and will be found guilty of breaking that commandment - if they don't know Christ as Saviour.
 
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Paul Christensen

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God loves everyone.
He sent His Son for all of us.

Being homosexual is not to be found committing the unpardonable sin.
And being extremely mentally ill, to the point where you allow yourself to be castrated and socially redefined, as "Trans", is not to have committed the unpardonable sin.
In both cases, this is just extreme spiritual darkness, and in many cases demonic oppression that is so powerful, that you see the result as their lifestyle.

So, Like i told you last time....
Gays do not reproduce, they RECRUIT.....so, you can't allow them into your church as they will try it.
Its what they do. They never stop.
Have you ever heard the song "Constant Craving" by the lesbian KD Lang? This song's pov is 2 fold.....its her explaining her constant craving for new lesbian partners, and its also her constant craving to "turn", or "recruit", a "Straight" or heterosexual, into their deviant sexuality.
"constant CRAVING".= to do it.

So, thats what you are dealing with when you are dealing with the Homosexual spirit. Its a spiritual infection, and it infects by recruiting.
This is why God stopped it 2x in the Old Testament..... First time by drowning and 2nd time by burning....As there is no other way, at that time, to stop the spread of this spiritual infection that plays out as sexual perversion.

Recruiting is their #1 priority, and this is not going to change, so, you have to guard yourself if you feel anything but disgust regarding their deviant sexually, and you have to guard your children.

Today, there is the delivering power of the blood of Jesus, and this can break the chains of any spiritual bondage, including homosexuality.
The problem with our powerless churches is that the powerful transforming power of the Holy Spirit through the born again experience is severely underrated. For most, Christian conversion is merely joining a church, adopting the religious walk and talk, promoting morality, and becoming a bonded-in member of the religious "club". Often these people are just "Sunday Christians", who appear very saintly while at Sunday service, but during the week at home, or on the job, nothing has changed. To these people the Holy Spirit is just some indeterminate mist that hovers over the service and hopefully some sort of presence is felt when people feel good and have a good time at church. As long as they say the right words of the liturgy, stay awake during the sermon, put their ten dollars in the plate, they think they have done their bit for God. The fact is that they know nothing of what true conversion to Christ is all about. Many of these kinds of churches accept gay people into their congregations and even have gay ministers, or they ban gay folk from coming anywhere near.

Genuine believers of the gospel embrace Christ and are totally willing to obey the Holy Spirit in all that He teaches them. If they are gay, and the Holy Spirit shows them that God's will for them is to give up the gay lifestyle and become hetrosexual, they are totally willing to go along with Him, and put their full trust in Him to change them by His power. In fact, they seek God with all their heart that the Holy Spirit will transform their sexual orientation through His mighty power. There are many testimonies that this has actually happened through prayer and faith.
 
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Paul Christensen

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They need to repent and stop that lifestyle or no heaven...


Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. ... Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
A person cannot be transformed from doing the works of the flesh until they are regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit. And that can happen only when the person embraces Christ as Saviour. Receiving Christ as Saviour takes away the guilt and punishment of sin and translates the person from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of God.

Telling a person to change their life before they can come to Christ is putting the cart before the horse and imposing a works-based salvation. Jesus has not come to save the already righteous. He came to save sinners.

Requiring a change of lifestyle is usurping the function of the Holy Spirit to transform a sinner to a sanctified believer. We are not the judge of people. Jesus is the only Judge. His work is to get people born again and saved first by having the gospel presented to them. They need to believe the gospel first and embrace Christ as Saviour. Then it is the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment to come.

The moment a sinner receives Christ, they are instantly made righteous as a gift of God without any actual change in their lifestyle. This means that a gay person, along with an alcoholic, thief, fornicator, etc., is made totally righteous in Christ as God's free unmerited gift to them. Once that happens, the Holy Spirit indwells the person and starts the process of sanctification in which their lifestyle changes, line by line, precept by precept, until their walk in the Spirit matches their life in the Spirit.

If you condemn a believer who has embraced Christ as Saviour, you will have Christ against you, irrespective of whether that believer has forsaken their previous lifestyle, including being gay. Jesus will defend that person against you and your judgment of that person. He will demand you to explain to Him why you are bringing charges against one of His elect, when God has justified that person, and that Jesus Himself has died on the cross and paid for their sins. He will ask, "Who do you think you are that you can lay charges against someone I died for, when I have given that person My own righteousness?'

This is why we need to leave the judgment others' lifestyle to Jesus, and engage in prayer that the Holy Spirit will do the perfect work of sanctification in the person. Remember the story that Jesus told about the servant who owed his master a great debt that he could never repay, which was forgiven him by the master. Then he went to a fellow-servant and threw him in jail over a much smaller debt. The master found out about it, and reimposed the large debt and put the servant to the tormenters until the full debt was paid.

Because Jesus paid an enormous price for my sins, I would have no right to demand compensation for the sins of others, nor have I the right to judge anyone because of a sinful lifestyle.
 
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dev553344

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Present the gospel of Christ without any reference to their gay lifestyle. I would tell a gay person that God is not worried by their lifestyle. He is more concerned that he or she escapes condemnation in hell by receiving Christ as Saviour. Changes in lifestyle is the domain of the Holy Spirit as part of the transformation and sanctification process after embracing Christ as Saviour.

A "christian" zealot can block someone from coming to Christ because of his or her discriminatory attitude toward gays.

I helped convert a homosexual at a time that I was a Christian zealot. But I think you would have to explain your idea of zealot.
 
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Paul Christensen

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I helped convert a homosexual at a time that I was a Christian zealot. But I think you would have to explain your idea of zealot.
A zealot is a person who goes to extremes in his zeal. A Christian zealot is like a member of the Westboro Baptist church who demonstrates against gay people saying "I hate fags!"
 
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dev553344

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A zealot is a person who goes to extremes in his zeal. A Christian zealot is like a member of the Westboro Baptist church who demonstrates against gay people saying "I hate fags!"

Oh, I see, well I'm not that kind of zealot. I just looked up the definition of zealot and found that I fit in the type of person that takes their religion seriously.
 
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Behold

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A zealot is a person who goes to extremes in his zeal. A Christian zealot is like a member of the Westboro Baptist church who demonstrates against gay people saying "I hate fags!"

Its good to be a zealot, if what you are doing is good.
For example..
"""John 2:17, "And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up."

And what Zeal is that?

Thats Jesus the Zealot using a small whip and a lot of justified anger to forcibly empty the Temple in Jerusalem, that was filled with religious fakirs who were sitting at tables, selling blessings.

Jesus didnt care about their civil rights.
Jesus was not politically corrected.
 
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JesusLovesYou

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The trouble is that the "witnessing" is in the form of criticising their gay lifestyle instead of presenting Jesus as Saviour to them. Saying, "You must give up your gay lifestyle before you can become a Christian" is presenting a false gospel of works. "Witness" zealots tend to forget that "we are saved by grace through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any should boast." And that Paul said, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ because it is the power of God that leads to salvation to those who believe it."

My view is to get a gay person converted to Christ, and then leave it to the Holy Spirit to do the rest. At the judgment, God is not going to ask, Did you give up being gay?" He is going to ask, "Did you receive my Son Jesus Christ as Saviour?'

In Luke 9:23 Jesus says, “If anyone wants to follow me, let him deny himself every day, take up his cross, and follow me”. Too many times we excuse giving up sin because we say salvation is not by works, and this completely true. However, at Pentecost, after Jesus ascended to heaven, 3000 people asked “What do we have to do?”, because they were convicted by the message they heard, and the Holy Spirit starts working from the moment a person asks this question. Salvation cannot be lost by works, but salvation is obtained through faith, and faith without works is dead.
 

Renniks

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If someone wants to kill their self, satan is talking to them.

Just ask Judas.
Ok, but that's not the question in my mind. The question was whether that person is automatically damned because of taking his life.
 

Truther

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The trouble is that the "witnessing" is in the form of criticising their gay lifestyle instead of presenting Jesus as Saviour to them. Saying, "You must give up your gay lifestyle before you can become a Christian" is presenting a false gospel of works. "Witness" zealots tend to forget that "we are saved by grace through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any should boast." And that Paul said, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ because it is the power of God that leads to salvation to those who believe it."

My view is to get a gay person converted to Christ, and then leave it to the Holy Spirit to do the rest. At the judgment, God is not going to ask, Did you give up being gay?" He is going to ask, "Did you receive my Son Jesus Christ as Saviour?'
A person cannot be transformed from doing the works of the flesh until they are regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit. And that can happen only when the person embraces Christ as Saviour. Receiving Christ as Saviour takes away the guilt and punishment of sin and translates the person from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of God.

Telling a person to change their life before they can come to Christ is putting the cart before the horse and imposing a works-based salvation. Jesus has not come to save the already righteous. He came to save sinners.

Requiring a change of lifestyle is usurping the function of the Holy Spirit to transform a sinner to a sanctified believer. We are not the judge of people. Jesus is the only Judge. His work is to get people born again and saved first by having the gospel presented to them. They need to believe the gospel first and embrace Christ as Saviour. Then it is the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment to come.

The moment a sinner receives Christ, they are instantly made righteous as a gift of God without any actual change in their lifestyle. This means that a gay person, along with an alcoholic, thief, fornicator, etc., is made totally righteous in Christ as God's free unmerited gift to them. Once that happens, the Holy Spirit indwells the person and starts the process of sanctification in which their lifestyle changes, line by line, precept by precept, until their walk in the Spirit matches their life in the Spirit.

If you condemn a believer who has embraced Christ as Saviour, you will have Christ against you, irrespective of whether that believer has forsaken their previous lifestyle, including being gay. Jesus will defend that person against you and your judgment of that person. He will demand you to explain to Him why you are bringing charges against one of His elect, when God has justified that person, and that Jesus Himself has died on the cross and paid for their sins. He will ask, "Who do you think you are that you can lay charges against someone I died for, when I have given that person My own righteousness?'

This is why we need to leave the judgment others' lifestyle to Jesus, and engage in prayer that the Holy Spirit will do the perfect work of sanctification in the person. Remember the story that Jesus told about the servant who owed his master a great debt that he could never repay, which was forgiven him by the master. Then he went to a fellow-servant and threw him in jail over a much smaller debt. The master found out about it, and reimposed the large debt and put the servant to the tormenters until the full debt was paid.

Because Jesus paid an enormous price for my sins, I would have no right to demand compensation for the sins of others, nor have I the right to judge anyone because of a sinful lifestyle.
Repentance is before salvation.

A person has to repent of something.

Never tell them "come as you are", but "come repenting of who you have become".
 
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April_Rose

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They need to repent and stop that lifestyle or no heaven...


That means that salvation is based upon works and Jesus' sacrifice would pretty much have been a waste of time.

I like Ray Comfort's way of showing non-Christians how they are breaking the Ten Commandments through simple every-day actions like taking an office pen home (theft), saying "OMG" (blasphemy), looking with lust at a person (adultery in the heart). He doesn't have to mention gay issues. The fact that the person has broken three commandments is enough to show that they are not a good person and usually, when the person is questioned about what is going to happen to them at the judgment, they usually answer that they would most probably go to hell.




Uh actually even though I have looked at people and thought they were cute I never had sexual desires for them and I can't commit adultery if I'm not married. (These were celebrities btw so they have no idea that I exist. XD) Also I'm pretty sure that I've never stolen anything even like that. I've found money on the street and pens and pencils in the hallway at school but I don't think that's stealing since I wasn't actually taking it from anybody. They were lost and I thought that I could use them. Now that's different than finding a wallet or driver's license or something like that where you should definitely turn it in somewhere. I'm not saying I'm perfect and I'm not a sinner,.. I just haven't committed those sins.



I helped convert a homosexual at a time that I was a Christian zealot.




Really? That's good. :)
 
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charity

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Hello @April_Rose,

While responding to another thread I had occasion to refer to Leviticus 18, which considers the law regarding unlawful sexual relations, where the relation of man with man and woman with woman sexually is called an abomination. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Paul having listed this sin among other sins, said in relation to them to the believers at Corinth said, '... such were some of you.' In other words, some of his listeners had been guilty of indulging in the sins listed, but they no longer did so. These sins were something which they had 'put-off', by reckoning themselves to be dead to sin, but alive unto God, in Christ Jesus their risen Saviour and Lord. They had repented of, or turned-away-from them.

'Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love,
as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given Himself for us

an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
.. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness,
.... let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
...... Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient:
........ but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater,
.. hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
.... Let no man deceive you with vain words:
...... for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord:
walk as children of light:'

(Ephesians 5:1-8)

* The physical act of sexual relations between people of the same gender is an abomination to God and should therefore not be indulged in. Love genuinely felt towards anyone of any gender is not to be condemned, for loving one another is something that should characterise us, but the sexual act itself is to be condemned.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris


 
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April_Rose

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Hello @April_Rose,

While responding to another thread I had occasion to refer to Leviticus 18, which considers the law regarding unlawful sexual relations, where the relation of man with man and woman with woman sexually is called an abomination. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Paul having listed this sin among other sins, said in relation to them to the believers at Corinth said, '... such were some of you.' In other words, some of his listeners had been guilty of indulging in the sins listed, but they no longer did so. These sins were something which they had 'put-off', by reckoning themselves to be dead to sin, but alive unto God, in Christ Jesus their risen Saviour and Lord. They had repented of, or turned-away-from them.

'Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love,
as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given Himself for us

an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
.. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness,
.... let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
...... Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient:
........ but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater,
.. hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
.... Let no man deceive you with vain words:
...... for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord:
walk as children of light:'

(Ephesians 5:1-8)

* The physical act of sexual relations between people of the same gender is an abomination to God and should therefore not be indulged in. Love genuinely felt towards anyone of any gender is not to be condemned, for loving one another is something that should characterise us, but the sexual act itself is to be condemned.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris






I don't think I ever said that it wasn't an abomination though. :/