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Featured Something That I Just Don't Understand

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by April_Rose, Feb 22, 2021.

  1. amigo de christo

    amigo de christo Well-Known Member

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    In large that is how i witnessed to gays . But many , and i do mean many , gays claim to KNOW JESUS
    Claim their pastor supports their lifestyle . I rebuke that lie . As we must .
    JESUS does not support the gay lifestyle . And they must be told and shown this via scripture .
    Often they will say GOD is love . And the LORD showed me how to show them their error through this .
    Because often they do say WELL GOD IS LOVE , HE made me like this and HE is love .
    When they do this , i say You are correct GOD IS LOVE . SO let us learn what LOVE truly is and what it truly entails .
    SO i open the book to corithians chapter
    thirteen . AND i show them what love means according to the bible .
    That if dont even matter if i gave my body to be burned and yet had not love , charity , then it would profit me nothing .
    SO it is dire important that if we have faith , we better have t rue charity or our faith means nothing .
    SO then i show them what love is not , it does not rejoice in inquity , it does not behave itself unseemingly .
    SO any love which does that , IS NOT LOVE at all .
    THEN i take them to romans one and read this , And likewise even the men gave up the natural use of the woman
    and they burned in lust one towards another doing that which is UNSEEMINGLY .
    NOTICE is corinthians chapter thirteen , ITCLEARLY states , charity DOES NOT BEHAVE ITSELF UNSEEMINGLY .
    SO then i tell them , You are correct , GOD IS LOVE , but if we have NOT HIS LOVE
    it wont matter if we did all the good works , fed the poor , IT PROFITS US NOTHING .
    TRY telling them this .
     
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  2. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @April_Rose,

    No, I didn't say that you had. I was merely sharing with you my further thoughts on the subject.

    With love in Christ Jesus :)
    Chris
     
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  3. April_Rose

    April_Rose Well-Known Member

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    God bless you too sister but there was some other stuff that I was going to mention before I forgot. First of all yes, works are important, but like others have stated it's not about what you do or don't do it's about what Jesus has done for all of us. Second of all since Judas was mentioned,.. Judas might have repented about betraying Christ before killing himself and wound up in Heaven. Who knows? Now, I'm also not saying that we all should just go ahead and kill ourselves because that isn't the answer either.



    I too attempted suicide as a teenager but was prevented from stabbing myself from talking with my boyfriend who was just my best friend back then. And just in case you guys are wondering even though I would rather not get into details since they're too personal,.. I too have known somebody who committed suicide a few years back. I have also known gay and transgender people too. However, just telling them they're going to go to Hell if they don't accept Christ isn't the way it should be handled. (I've known gay people to have said that they accepted Christ into their hearts and the one who committed suicide knew Jesus as far as I could tell.)





    Picture this. You're seven years old and your parent or guardian catches you with your hand in the cookie jar. There are two ways they can handle this. In the first example they could punish you right away and send you to your room and take away your toys and not give you any explanation whatsoever,.. and sadly a lot of parents probably do go ahead and do this. Or in the second example they could explain to you ahead of time what's going to happen and they love and care about you too much that they don't want to see you get stick and eat your fruits and vegetables to be able to remain healthy and strong. Which situation do you think the child is going to be less afraid of screwing up?





    Probably the second one and no parent, grandparent, etc. is going to want to wind up with the child afraid of them as the end result and I don't see as God any different because He loves us. If people were to tell the child in this hypothetical situation that Mommy and Daddy are very angry with them and they are going to punish them just for being a bad child,.. the child is probably going to get very upset and want to runaway or something and that's what Christians are like when they hear other Christians telling somebody that they're going to go to Hell for being gay without explaining why and what they can do to fix it. So that all being said,.. I hope that I put it another perspective for you guys. :)
     
  4. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    Of course we are saved by our works, just not the works of the Law.

    James etc make sure of that.
     
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  5. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    Simon the Zealot was a disciple of Jesus. The Zealot in Jesus' time was the name of a Jewish organisation that was violently opposed to Roman occupation. Their members would wait until a Roman was in a crowd, gather around him, stab him to death, and then disappear into the crowd, evading detection. In modern times, the word Zealot has changed from a noun to an adjective to describe a person who has 'over the top' zeal for his cause.

    So, I wouldn't call you a Zealot because you take your faith in Christ seriously.
     
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  6. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    In these days, Zealots, if they are following the Jewish Zealot pattern, they are the extremists who are the suicide bombers, shooting up mosques, attacking the Congress building, looting and burning in the name of the BLM movement. Jesus didn't do any of these things, and He would never have approved of the modern day equivalent.
     
  7. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    You missed my point. My point is that we won't win souls for Christ by saying to sinners that they must give up their sins before coming to Christ. And even when they do come to Christ, they cannot give up their sins in their own strength, but need the Holy Spirit to do the work of sanctification in them.

    So I am not talking about holy living for Christian believers, but more about how we go about witnessing to sinners and what we tell them.
     
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  8. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    Only the Holy Spirit can make repentance possible. Repentance is not giving up sins. It is a total change of attitude toward Christ. It is a change of direction from rebelling against Christ to embracing Him as Saviour. Only the Holy Spirit can give a sinner saving faith to achieve that.

    Giving up sin is, as Paul describes in Galatians, forsaking the works of the flesh, walking in the Spirit as we live in the Spirit. Only a genuine believer who has turned away from his rebellion against Christ and has been granted repentance by the Holy Spirit and been born again by the Spirit of God can truly and effectively forsake the works of the flesh.

    A person who witnesses to sinners saying, "You must repent, ie: give up your sinful lifestyle, before you can be saved, is wasting their breath, because the power of the Holy Spirit is no behind that type of witnessing. The power of the Holy Spirit is in the sharing of the gospel of Christ, presenting a Saviour who gave His life on the cross so they can be saved and appear before the judgment seat of Christ clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

    True repentance and conversion to Christ is a work of the Holy Spirit in a person and must be earnestly sought for from God, and only a saved person who has already believed the gospel and embraced Christ can do that.
     
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  9. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    When I specified those infractions of the Commandments, I was talking about from our youth up. ie: from the age of accountability when we came to know the difference between right and wrong.
    So, anytime since our childhood:
    Have we ever been disrespectful to parents?
    Have we neglected to love God with all our hearts?
    Have we ever possessed anything that does not belong to us?
    Have we ever looked at another person with lust?
    Have we ever thought that we would like something that someone else has?
    Have you ever hated another person?
    Have you ever told even a little white lie?

    If the answer is "yes" to any of these, then even just a small infraction is a transgression of the Law, which is the same as transgressing the whole Law, and so brings condemnation. The soul who sins shall surely die. If we are to be totally honest, we would have to say that we have broken the law of God many times since our childhood.

    The whole point of point these things out is to show our need for Christ as Saviour. The purpose of the law is to point us to Christ. Once we have embraced Christ, the Law has no further function for us. It has become redundant. Then, for the Christian believer, the responsibility is to forsake the works of the flesh so that we walk in the Spirit as we now live in the Spirit. Forsaking the works of the flesh gives us a powerful testimony to the world around us that embracing Christ has changed us for the better and that He is the Saviour to rescue us from the wrath to come.
     
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  10. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be talking about gays who profess to be Christian believers. If they are saying their pastor supports their lifestyle, that is their word which may not be the facts of what the pastor is really supporting. I would be more interested in what the pastor himself is saying.

    If the gay person has genuinely embraced Christ as Saviour, then he or she is truly saved according to what the gospel teaches. But as professing believers they must forsake the works of the flesh in order to walk in the Spirit. This is where they need to take notice of the Romans and Galatians references concerning the gay lifestyle. If they are genuine converts to Christ, then they will become convicted of their addiction to the works of the flesh and will seek God earnestly to remove it from them by His grace. They won't forsake it by having someone Bible-bash them about it. It has to come from within their own hearts, and if the Holy Spirit has given them a new heart, then they will appeal to God's grace and mercy to change their orientation through the power of the Holy Spirit.

    In the meantime, while that work is going on, we need to love them and accept them as true believers still going through the process of sanctification. I wouldn't be surprised if the pastor involved had that very attitude.
     
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  11. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    I would expect the conviction of the sin of homosexuality to arrive quickly, unless someone were indoctrinated into liberal Christianity and then they were called out of it. But then I expect they would face a serious choice after counting the cost.
     
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  12. April_Rose

    April_Rose Well-Known Member

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    Then tell me what you personally believe the cross was for.




    Again, when I say that I believe I have never stolen anything it means that I don't think I ever stole anything period. However I've told lies and disobeyed my parents,.. then again except for Jesus hasn't everyone? (Except I'm not sure if it counts when you don't know any better. I still can't imagine Jesus doing either of those things since He was perfect though.) I've answered yes to some of those other questions too, but now we're getting off topic.






    Agreed. There is a difference between a gay person saying that they accepted Christ as Savior and actually acting upon it. That's the exactly why I don't say "I love you" an awful lot to people since without actions to back it up you're pretty much full of hot air.
     
  13. JesusLovesYou

    JesusLovesYou Member

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    Going back to the Pentecost scenario, at that time, there were numerous Jews in Jerusalem from other parts of the known world at that time, who, after hearing the disciples of Jesus speaking in their native tongues, they thought the disciples were drunk. What I am trying to say is that the message of Christ may seem like something way out there for many who hear it, but if the message is explained, they will come eventually to the point where they will say, “What do we have to do?”. At that point, one has broken through the thick walls of unbelief—yet, not a person has broken through, but the Holy Spirit of God. There is nothing that you and I can do for any person but tell them the whole truth, not just regarding a certain aspect, but if possible regarding the relationship with God through His Son. To only attack the sin sounds judgmental, and up to a point is normal. After that, the sinning person has to be told, and preferably exposed, to an alternative. (S)he would need a lot of help-maybe medical, psychological, spiritual,etc; only that person and God know best—in order to recover. First and foremost, however, the winning person has to be brought to the point where (s)he will say, “What do I have to do?”.
     
  14. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    The Scripture says that just one infraction of the Law is disobedience against the whole Law, and disobedience against the Law brings condemnation and death. So if you are trusting in your obedience to what you consider the important commandments and making excuses that the others are just minor that everyone breaks, then you are on very shaky ground. Of course everyone breaks the commandments, that is why there are none righteous no, not one, according to the Scripture, and that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Therefore if you don't have Christ as Saviour, you are just as guilty before God as someone who has broken the "major" commandments. Also, none of us have ever been able to love the Lord with absolutely all of our hearts, minds, and strength, so we have all broken that commandment without exception. The Scripture says that none who are depending on their own goodness or righteousness will have any excuse before the judgment seat.

    The Scripture says that no one will ever be justified by God by keeping the Law, not because there is any fault in the Law, but that the sinfulness of people make it impossible to keep the Law. Therefore the knowledge of the Law brings the knowledge of sin and condemnation and shows that there is no hope if we are depending on ourselves to be acceptable to God.

    When a person becomes convicted of their sin, and I am not sure you have come to that point yet, and knows that there is no hope unless God is gracious and merciful, then the gospel of Christ becomes good news and those who embrace Christ know that they are saved by God's grace through their faith in Christ; it is the gift of God, not through works (observance to the Law) lest any should boast.

    So, being disobedient to parents, or telling a little white lie, makes one just as guilty before God as another who has a gay lifestyle, because God makes no distinction between "big" and "little" sins. It is all sin to Him, and sin leads to death.
     
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  15. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    Paul says that:
    "know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16).

    The works that James talks about are not for being justified by God. But for the person who says they have faith in Christ but does not demonstrate the transformation that comes through being born again of the Spirit of God. Faith in Christ comes first, and that is what saves. The lifestyle of a believer shows different works as he or she forsakes the works of the flesh and starts walking in the Spirit. Therefore James is talking to professing Christians. He is not giving the gospel to non-Christians. He is stating how those who profess faith in Christ should be living. His view is that a thief is no longer a thief, an adulterer is no longer an adulterer, a gossip is no longer a gossip, and someone who engages in gay sex no longer engages in it - if they are genuinely born again of the Spirit of God and profess to be walking in the Spirit.

    Forsaking the works of the flesh does not save a sinner, but forsaking them makes the person's profession of faith genuine and believable.
     
  16. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    To free us from the works of THE LAW of the O.T. to be saved.

    Not Spirit led N.T. works...as per repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, submitting ourselves to God, fasting, praying etc.
     
  17. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    Spirit led works of the N.T. as per Acts 2:38, etc, are not the Law of the O.T.
     
  18. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    True. the O.T. Law is to convict of sin and point sinners to Christ. Being Spirit led is the characteristic of being a genuine convert to Christ. This goes along with the Scripture, "Those who are led by the Spirit are the children of God" (Romans 8:14).
     
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  19. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @April_Rose,

    I agree that we are saved by God's grace, and not by works that we have done. However you will agree I'm sure. that though we died with Christ, and were quickened into life with Him, we were also raised up to walk with Him before the Father in newness of life. Our lives should reflect in some measure the work of God that has taken place within us, in our manner of life and the thoughts we express.
    * Thank you for sharing your life experience with us. You must have been desperately unhappy, and I am so glad that your attempt failed.

    * Yes, the way we approach people matters. There has to be love, a love expressed not only in word, but in deed and in truth. Knowing that God so loved them that He sent His only Son to die in their place, paying the penalty for their sin, so that they may live. Knowing that He did not come into the world to condemn but to give life more abundant, this is the message that is needed, isn't it.

    * It is said in God's word that the fear of God is the 'beginning' of wisdom, and that is true, but it is only the beginning. We go on to know His love in greater depth, and to realise that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, and that He saves to the uttermost those who come unto Him for salvation by His grace.

    * There is no judgement in love, no pointing the finger, but open arms ready to receive those who are crippled by their life experiences, who have been overtaken by the deceitful lusts which war against the soul, and make them dependant upon substances that can only lead to death and the destruction of all they hold dear. What a fearful situation so many are in: and the enemy is within them. How much they need the loving embrace of the God of all grace, and entrance into His presence where there is fulness of joy.

    * The child who is abused, the Father overtaken with drink, the Mother beaten and bruised by a husband who himself experienced brutality as a child, what a vicious circle is created, isn't it? Only God can break that cycle and bring His love and grace to bear upon a sin-sick soul.

    Within the love of Christ
    Our risen and glorified
    Saviour, Lord and Head.
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
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  20. Holy999

    Holy999 Well-Known Member

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    astrology and numerlogoy have no basis.
     
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