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In reflecting on the conversations I sincerely hope and am sure of in myself, I have not over stepped my intent, to share some insight without having to resort to my opinion. To reflect on that which I can not improve upon, that is Paul's letter, Col 1:15-20 . But rather we have come to the same conclusion Paul did by examining the scriptures. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Again I realize I can't improve on Pauls choice of words even after the move into English, the first born. Lets just reflect on our discovery, confirming Paul was certainly speaking of both, first born "in the beginning and in salvation for mankind", as Anastacia was so persistent in knowing. This also points to our completed race 1 Cor 9:24 to know as we have been known 1 Cor 13:12 . And finally Romans 8:19 will come to pass. Sons as in more than one.
I can't point out the importance of the other end of this spectrum, The one we just looked at, who is Jesus from the beginning, He is the image of the invisible God, We have seen He walked with Noah and Abraham, in a "body". He then left His divine body to take on the flesh of mankind. I like my God He's a mans man He does not just sit on high like men today and speak of things they have never known, offering advice about things they themselves have not lived. But My God is a God of knowing, of doing, speaking and teaching of the things He knows and has done. I believe like wise He raises his children the same way. Jesus came and walked a life in the flesh of mankind to please His Father, He expects no less from us, under His divine counselor the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 2:14 Romans 8:3 Hebrews 2:17-18 Hebrews 4:15-16 . So lets all go out and do as Jesus told the Samaritan woman and take a deep drink from the well of Life.
[sup]13[/sup] Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, [sup]14[/sup] but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
[sup]15[/sup] The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
The water is right there but you have to draw the water out. Rev 3:20
God the Father (mind)
Jesus (heart)
HS (soul)
All God - three in one.
Aspen, you got that from the sign of the cross didn't you?
For the Holy Spirit you said "soul." The Holy Spirit is a Spirit. A soul is a spirit with a human body.
It is a metaphor, Anastacia
I'd like to add John 1:1 to this.Do you believe God created Jesus in heaven before the creation of the world? And, do you believe the scriptures saying Jesus was the firstborn...is about Jesus being firstborn over all creation, and that firstborn does not mean only firstborn from the dead?
I'd like to add John 1:1 to this.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is not a creation.
I also think the "Did Jesus have a body in heaven" is really a redundant argument because in my opinion, being created in the image of God could mean his nature (which is what I think it references). We cannot be created in the image of a physical body as then, what bodies are we given at the end times? Ones NOT in his nature? But one way or the other I really don't think this is a point to spend much time on.
As far as Christ being the firstborn...
I HIGHLY suggest you guys check out Matt Chandler's sermon series on Colossians.
http://fm.thevillage...rmons&match=any
It is one of THE BEST series I have ever listened to. I believe Part 4 is the one that addresses this, I recommend the whole series though, you won't be disappointed.
If you don't want to listen to Part 4, here's a transcript of it: http://fm.thevillage...eEternalSon.pdf
That said, this series made me a huge Chandler fan. He does an excellent job with it, discusses the historical background, great exegesis, and pulls a ton more out of the first chapter of Colossians than what one would think you can pull out of it (Colossians has become one of my favorite books).
And here's a snippet speaking of the Firstborn (No use me telling you about it when Chandler does such an excellent job). Note again, it's a transcript so it won't read as well as something written.
On a side note, it also calls Jesus the firstborn from among the dead. Now that’s great news
because that means there will be others. There will be more. If you get a chance this week, I
strongly recommend you read 1 Corinthians 15 where it talks about His resurrection from the
dead. I think Christians are very confused about this subject in regards to our resurrection. I’ve
heard preachers and pastors come out of 1 Corinthians 15 at funerals where it says, “Where oh
death is your victory? Where oh death is your sting?” And I always want to go, “Right here!
We’re at a funeral. There’s a body in a casket. The sting is right here.” The point of 1
Corinthians 15 isn’t that death doesn’t sting and hurt right now. The point of 1 Corinthians 15 is
that there’s coming a day where we’ll have new, imperishable bodies, bodies that will never die,
will not grow weary, will not grow faint. That day is coming. It’s not some ethereal, float up, sit
on a cloud, play a harp; that’s not our future. Strong, physical, undying, unable to get sick,
glorious bodies given to us at the resurrection, that’s the promise of 1 Corinthians 15 and that’s
what Jesus purchased for us in the cross and the resurrection. He is the firstborn from among the
dead, and we will join Him. That’s when death no longer has sting, that’s when death no longer
has victory, that’s when it’s swallowed up, when death is no more. That’s when it’s over. So we
put a lot of hope there. We put a lot of trust there, a lot of confidence there.
What scripture are you using that Jesus was a created being?Hi TexUs, I'll check out the links you gave. I do want to say that I see the scriptures about God creating Jesus, then Jesus creating the whole universe. Jesus had a body when he came to Earth, and Jesus was given his gloried body when he went back to Heaven. Jesus is the beginning and the end, the first and the last. God had the plan of salvation before the world was created. Jesus was with God from the beginning, Jesus was God. Don't know why you have a hard time seeing that Jesus was created by God for an Earthly body, but not before he came to Earth.
I do, I don't know why you'd think I'd disagree?I want to ask you if you believe in the life of the spirit after the death of the physical, earthly body? It sounds like you don't.
What scripture are you using that Jesus was a created being?
I really don't know how you can say "Jesus was and was with God" in the beginning and come away with him being a created being? How does God create another God but yet still be of himself?
I do, I don't know why you'd think I'd disagree?
Hebrews 1:2... Of course, he made the universe through Christ, Colossians supports this as well. How is this evidence for Jesus being a created being?Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Did you see that? God made the universe THROUGH Jesus.
Colossians 1:5 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Hebrews 1:2... Of course, he made the universe through Christ, Colossians supports this as well. How is this evidence for Jesus being a created being?
Colossians 1:5... Firstborn among the dead, is what's supported, in my opinion (look at v18).
I read what you and bud posted however I really don't see anything that supports Christ being created. One cannot use Colossians as the firstborn term is later clarified with the "dead" term by Paul.
Yea and that's why I don't think he's created.Since God made everything through Jesus....then you have to figure it out. If you don't see it....then you don't see it. It is in the scriptures. If you believe God and Jesus are one, and that Jesus is the visible of the invisible God....and you still can't see it, then that's all I can tell you.
Yea and that's why I don't think he's created.