My replies to veteran in blue.
Yes, I know. Col.1:15 is a declared statement with the details given next in the 16-20 verses involving the creation too. It has to be taken as a whole, not by separating that "firstborn of every creature" phrase.
Why do you keep saying "creature" instead of creation?
In Romans 8:22 the Greek word 'ktisis' is rendered as "creation" in the KJV. It's the same Greek word rendered "creature" throughout the KJV NT (except ktisma in a couple of places). Dr. James Strong defined ktisis as 'original formation', which is even more accurate concerning Paul's subject there.
I'll cut to the chase on that, so to speak. Assign it how you please. Romans 8:19-24 is about God's creation that He placed in bondage to corruption for this present world. It's a pointer back to the creation once existing in a different state, which is why Paul reveals the whole creation (ktisis) groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now, also with us waiting in hope for the adoption. Compare it with prophecy about the future new heavens and a new earth.
You really just don't see a difference in the word 'creation' and 'creature'?
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(KJV)
Well, here you quote the KJV as saying "creation" but in the other post you said "creature."
Rev 1:8
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come, the Almighty.
(KJV)
Veteran, I told you that is what Revelations said. You don't think there is a difference in saying the first and the last compared to no beginning and no end? You quote scripture here that says the beginning and the end---so where is the scripture to support it when you said Jesus has "no beginning and no end"?
Rev 22:12-13
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(KJV)
Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, and Omega is the last. It's a symbolic expression for completeness. So who was first Author? The LORD. And who's the Finisher (Heb.12:2)? The LORD. It's symbolic for eternality.
Again, you did not say Jesus was the beginning and the end and the first and the last, you said Jesus was without beginning and without end.
You NEVER heard me say that Jesus wasn't with The Father before being born in the flesh through Mary's womb. Yeshua, Messiah, Iesous, Jesus Christ is Immanuel (GOD with us) when He was born in the flesh. He was fully God in OT times, and He was fully God while born in the flesh, and He is fully God after His Resurrection. Christ as the Heavenly Pattern always has existed. He simply came in the same flesh as ours to suffer death for us on the cross to defeat the devil and the power of death, and thereby offer us Salvation. In the Book of Isaiah when He says He is The Saviour, and there is no one else, that is Christ saying that.
I think you are missing what I tried to explain. You say Jesus had a body in heaven---before he came to earth, right? God is "invisible," so did God create Jesus in a visible form (of Himself) in heaven, before Jesus came to earth? If you say yes, then you are saying that Jesus was 'created' or 'begotten' or 'born'. Jesus is God. So, you couldn't say that God is one and Jesus is another, and that Jesus gave himself a body in heaven.
The Image likeness of God is that of the image of Man. Even the Archangel Gabriel's name means 'man of God'. That's from Genesis 1:26-27 when God said let Us create man in Our Own Image. The image of man is from the Heavenly Image of God, and it does not require a flesh and blood body.
Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
(KJV)
Mark 12:25
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
(KJV)
Here is another scripture I want you to consider.....
Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Did you see that? God made the universe THROUGH Jesus.
Understanding The Trinity ???
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Are you still wanting to take that Co.1:15 phrase "firstborn of every creature" out of the context of the rest of those verses? If it were rendered "creation" in the KJV would it really make in difference, since Paul explains his meaning of that phrase in the next Col.1 verses? And in those next verses we know it has nothing to do with any idea that Christ was created.
I was directly quoting from the KJV Bible which has the Greek word ktisis rendered as "creature" in Romans 8:19-21. I did not make any changes. Look at KJV Bible in Romans 8.
Rev 1:8
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come, the Almighty.
(KJV)
It's right there if you'd simply look at it with common sense instead of assigning a flesh reasoning of limitations to it. If that Alpha and Omega expression is used for The Almighty as written there, how must that then be applied? It must be applied in the Eternal sense. And I'm not going to take up a bunch of space to quote to you many other Scriptures in God's Word that declares His Eternal Nature everlasting, when you should already know about them. It sounds like you simply want to argue and not learn anything.
That kind of deductive reasoning won't work. We have to stay within the parameters of God's Word about it. Bud02 just gave a hint about Christ's body in OT times from the Gen.18 event of His appearing to Abraham. But unlike Bud02, I don't believe it meant a flesh type body, for flesh is the body Christ took upon Himself only when born through woman's womb. The LORD has a body Image in the Heavenly too, as shown in Daniel 7:9, and there's no Scripture support for it being a flesh body in Heaven. You yourself quoted Paul as saying flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven, so what gives with your focus on the matter? The rest of Paul's quote in 1 Cor.15:50 is that neither does corruption inherit incorruption. That's about the difference between a flesh body and a "spiritual body" that apostle Paul taught there.
Yes, but does that mean Christ was created? Still No. Trying to argue that point is useless once the Col.1:16-20 verses are admitted for what they declare, along with many other Scriptures in God's Word that declare Christ Jesus as God The Son, especially His Name 'Immanuel' which means 'God with us', even as defined in the Matthew 1 Scripture. Jesus was fully GOD before He came in the flesh, and fully GOD while in the flesh, and still is fully GOD today...
Heb 13:8
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
(KJV)
I would just like to say I don't believe this to be human flesh or the flesh that Jesus was born from Mary in.
But it is clearly a body and to most I would say indiscernible from our own. Jacob wrestled with the Lord. It took a bit for Tomas to believe Jesus had risen. The two Angles that were with the Lord were mistaken for men by the men of Sodom and Gomorrah. Melchizedek whom Abraham paid a tenth of everything to.
Paul writes that Melchizedek was with out father or mother, without beginning or ending of days or end of life.
David writes
Psalm 110:4
[sup]4[/sup] The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
In all as veteran and myself have said the evidence is that the Lord's appearance in a " body " in the OT on earth is plenty. Did Jesus know Abraham? Apparently that's exactly what the Jews understood Him to say, and Jesus confirms with I AM.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I haven't read everyone's response yet, so forgive me if I am repeating what someone else has already written. If Jesus become God in the flesh, then before He humbled Himself, he had to have all the characteristics of God - omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscience - He also had to be the Alpha and the Omega as described in Revelation. If so, He had to exist before the beginning or creation. [font="arial][size="2"]Anathasus wrote about the nature of the Trinity in the 4th century, in response to several heretical groups - you can read all of his works online at the Ethereal Library through Calvin College. Basically, God has to be Trinue in order for Christians to remain faithful to the doctrine of monotheism because Jesus and the Holy Spirit share all the aspects of God with the Father.[/size][/font]
[font="arial] [/font]
[font="arial][size="2"]By the 7th century, the church had hammered out the Doctrine of the Incarnation, which describes Jesus as 100% man and 100% God - and that it is impossible to separate the two natures.
[/size][/font]
anastacia said:
Why don't you look in the KJV of Romans 8 and you'll find out? In Rom.8:22 that same Greek word ktsis is rendered as "creation". In all other Rom.8 examples it's rendered as "creature". In the context of those Rom.8 verses it's still the same idea about God's creation.
You're being silly now. Look at the KJV Bible in Romans 8 to see what I'm talking about. You're going totally out in left field on that creature wording, trying to infer that Christ was created before He came in the flesh.
You've gone totally irrational, fanatical with your thought process even, because it's been you that has been trying to attack my simple quoting of Scripture in Romans 8 per the King James Bible Version. And now you refuse to even look at the Alpha and Omega Scripture quotes from Revelation I offerred.
At this point, I think you would argue with yourself even, you're in such confusion.
I'm not "tapped out" as you say. You've simply chosen to believe something else other than what Scripture says in Col.1. And when someone shows you your error, you get upset.
The heavenly order type body, or spiritual body or resurrection body that apostle Paul was describing in 1 Cor.15 is hard for many to understand. But we really have no excuse in not understanding it because of the many Biblical examples of angelic presences appearing within this earthly dimension without having been born through woman's womb. Genesis 18 was one such example. The word angel itself does not mean a heavenly created being, it simply means 'messenger'.
Satan's propaganda of ghosts, poltergeists and horror films has done its job it was purposed for, to scare the heck out of people for even thinking about the idea of a heavenly body from the Heavenly dimension. Just the thought of angelic presence being around us that we cannot see with our flesh eyes scares the heck out of many.
I too believe that our Lord Jesus was the Melchisedec of Genesis that met Abraham and offered him bread and wine, which were symbols that the New Covenant was always first, and that it would come. And I love the example of our Lord Jesus appearing to His Apostles after His Resurrection on the shore while they were fishing, where He already had a fire going and was cooking fish for them (John 21).
It's that kind of body that will allow us to live upon this earth forever in God's Eternity. It is not a body of death at all, and it's certainly not a literal flesh body like we have today that gets old, sick, and dies. I look forward to that future existence.
Nomad
I have 2 questions
1.) Have you ever encountered anyone that claimed that Jesus had a human nature but He wasn't a Human Being?
2.) Do you know any scholars who specifically refer to Jesus as a Human Being
The NewGuy
I have 2 questions
1.) Have you ever encountered anyone that claimed that Jesus had a human nature but He wasn't a Human Being?
2.) Do you know any scholars who specifically refer to Jesus as a Human Being
The NewGuy
Wow. You just get worse and worse. You are out of control. Stop with the personal attacks. Is that the way you do your family in your home? Learn how to talk like a Christian man to another Christian, and a female Christian to top it off. And I'll be more delicate with you since I realized you mentioned you were in your 70's.
You can't perceive what some of scriptures are saying in more than one passage. And, you also foster a very weird and strange doctrine of humans made by Satan. Maybe you spent too much time reading other books that you should not of. Regardless, you should not entertain such strange teachings.
Like I said before, I'm finished talking with you, so please don't come back just to personally attack, like you did in your last post to me.
God bless.
Col 1:15-17 is an interesting one. Because it says Jesus is the creator of every created thing, then it calls him 'first born of all creation' , it seems like a contradiction, but after you look at the use of first born in other verses it makes better sense.
Exodus 4:22- This is what the Lord says: Israel is my first born Son. (obviously not a referrence to being born)
Psalm 89:27 -(here David is called first born, yet he was the last kid born in his family, out of 7 or 8 siblings, so first born here does not refer to being born)
Jeremiah 31:9- (Ephraim is called first born, yet Mannasseh was born before Epraim, again, not referring to actually being born).
So, in scripture, 'first born' does carry meaning other than being born.
Proto-ktistos- the greek word for 'first created', Paul did NOT use this word.
p.s. thanks for the info Nomad, good stuff.
Exodus 4:22- This is what the Lord says: Israel is my first born Son. (obviously not a referrence to being born)
Psalm 89:27 -(here David is called first born, yet he was the last kid born in his family, out of 7 or 8 siblings, so first born here does not refer to being born)
Jeremiah 31:9- (Ephraim is called first born, yet Mannasseh was born before Epraim, again, not referring to actually being born).
So, in scripture, 'first born' does carry meaning other than being born.
Proto-ktistos- the greek word for 'first created', Paul did NOT use this word.
p.s. thanks for the info Nomad, good stuff.
What you say here is something to consider carefully. Though, I do not see the word "firstborn" in these other scriptures you given quite the same way as in Colossians 1:15.
What exactly are you saying about Paul not saying the 'first created"?
I would like to ask you something--- Jesus was born on earth, given a body. Do you believe Jesus had a type of body in heaven before he came to earth? If yes, do you believe that Jesus made himself the body he had in heaven? Do you believe Jesus just always existed with a body in heaven, or that God gave Jesus his body in heaven?
If you take one step forward in Col 1:15 to Col 1:16-17 you will see that it could have been Himself that fashioned a body. But a look in Gen reveals that we are made in Gods image Gen 1:26, so which is it? Its the classic question of which came first the chicken or the egg? Which came first the image,,,,likeness,,,,,,, or God, " after our likeness " It in my opinion It's not easily answered, and just what would the knowledge of it change? Not to mention the words let us,,,,,,,,,, in our Image This seems to imply just what most suspect that the Father, Son And Spirit are one acting as one. Now lets add the last factor, God is Spirit. John 4:23-24
Its questions like these that have less effect on your understanding of the basics of salvation. But as I discussed with Nomad understanding just who Jesus was, in what form He came, can. Its like a door, once the door is compromised it allows all sorts of things in. Just as the hot button issue of works, once you open the door to a works based salvation in comes the flood, the leaven.
I posted a reply yesterday that I think captures the thought. It was about Paul and his conversion, in the thread "saved threw the bible alone"
Paul is a perfect example of someone acting outside the power of the Holy Spirit. All of his knowledge and works meant nothing until divine intervention.
Isa 64:6 filthy rags is the translation I like.
And by the way where are Paul's works before salvation? Killing Christians? Paul's message is just what he experienced, By grace you are saved by faith and that not of yourself.
Works that are pleasing to God come after salvation.
BTW that is exactly what James teaches. Underlined is one favorite quote of works based salvationers. But notice hes not talking about salvation threw works. Hes speaking about the saved not the unsaved. Works are the result of the Spirit that now lives in you. Thats James message.
James 2:17 Sorry I'm getting off track
Well, at least you are considering the possibility that Jesus might of been "fashioned a body" in heaven before coming to earth. You then bring up Genesis and bring up the question of "which is it?" I just don't think what you bring up about Genesis is as complicated as you seem to think it is, nor do I think it nullifies the question, the question of whether or not Jesus was firstborn by God in heaven.
I think the scriptures can be telling us that Jesus was God's first created, unless it is about being firstborn from the dead only.
When Jesus came to earth, God gave him a body. Jesus was God in the flesh. God gave Himself an earthly body. So why do some here say no right away about God giving Jesus a body first time in heaven--- before coming to earth and having an earthly body?
This is a difficult topic, so I'm glad you are studying these scriptures with me. But I do think the question you ask: "Which came first the image....likeness....or God," after our likeness." I think that it is kind of confusing how you ask that. Would you mind clarifying for me? I do think that the image would come second though...if I'm understanding you right. I mean, an image has to be an image of a likeness that is already there. Right?
Your next comments I think are you just trying to be rude to me because I replied to you in another thread that I didn't think you should of asked one of the questions that you asked. You don't seem to hold back on any topic, so why would these types of questions not be looked at?
What you say about a door being opened and letting all sorts of things in is, well, of no warrant. People have made false doctrines on scriptures. Do you not argue your beliefs against a JW on their false doctrine that Jesus was the angel Micheal? Are you that afraid to study the scripture of Colossians 1:15, John 1:1, John 17:5, John 17:24, Hebrews 1:2 and Hebrews 1:6? They are the scriptures! I'm not saying we will come to an agreement other than it's beyond our grasp, but there's nothing wrong with studying to try to understand these scriptures.
I believe very much that Jesus had a body before being born threw Mary. That He visited Abraham in this body. And I also added some other verses that you may have missed, I posted a reply to veteran just before you relied to him yourself. I don't know that you read it. As to first born first Paul speaks of all things were created in heaven and earth visible and invisible. In verse 18 he makes the fist born statement clear after establishing Jesus is the creator, The word became flesh as John says. He is the fist first born of the dead. Col 1:18. Now lets remember what John also says about seeing the Father John 1:18 and Jesus confirms in John 6:46 So by reason of detection we can safely say that was Jesus in Gen 18, walking, eating, and speaking to Abraham, not God the Father. What we begin to see is that the Father is very elusive but ever present. Because even in the garden it was Jesus not the Father or else we would not read no man has seen the Father. Now I believe that Adam walked with God, latterly. Just as it says Enoch walked with God Gen 5:22 and the language is completely clear in Gen 6:9 Noah walked with God. The NT tells us this is and was Jesus, not the Father.
Some more clues can be found in proverbs. Now Wisdom dwells together with prudence, to find out knowledge and discretion. Pr 8:12. But more importantly is what comes later.
I can only conclude that Wisdom witnessed what we know from the scriptures. Wisdom witnessed Jesus creating all things. But yet she says she was established the word nawsak,
5258 nacak naw-sak' a primitive root; to pour out, especially a libation, or to cast (metal); by analogy, to anoint a king:--cover, melt, offer, (cause to) pour (out), set (up).
She uses the word LORD
3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare
1961 hayah haw-yaw a primitive root (Compare 1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.
The more I look the more I realize just how Jesus is the only representation the creation has ever known or seen of the Father. Wisdom herself knows Jesus as God. Col 1:16 But yet we know He has a Father which no man has seen, you can only know Him threw Jesus, to whom only the Father can reveal the Son. John 6:44 Like I said ever elusive yet ever present. Yet clearly seen in Jesus. But in my opinion the search amplifies Jesus, He is Gods Door Threw Him all things were created, in heaven and earth, Col 1:16 That means Angles as well. Jesus is said to be the Word of God, when we speak how do we separate the thought from the word. It manifest itself in action threw the lips I blow air that makes a sound. That's when thought changes to words and becomes a substance in the created world, and that's as far as I go. John 14:9
Please just ignore the rest of my statements as being personal. Some times I forget that I'm speaking to someone and tend to be impersonal I apologize.
Thank you for the apology, it means a lot to me. And I very much enjoyed reading what you posted here. It really does help me understand things better. I think I'm a little in shock that someone understands what I have been wondering about. No, I think I'm in a lot of shock. lol So excuse me for these two questions I must ask you again: Do you believe God created Jesus in heaven before the creation of the world? And, do you believe the scriptures saying Jesus was the firstborn...is about Jesus being firstborn over all creation, and that firstborn does not mean only firstborn from the dead?
Jesus created Heaven read Col 1:16-17 again.
Please only the Father can revel Jesus to men, And the Father is unknown to all except the Son,I have done my best
Jesus is said to be the Word of God, when we speak how do we separate the thought from the word. It manifest its self in action threw the lips I blow air that makes a sound. That's when thought changes to words and becomes a substance in the created world, and that's as far as I go. John 14:9......................Gen 1:3................John 8:12
God the Father is Spirit, John 4:24 Jesus is the working hand of God in substance, all substance was created by Jesus, both in heaven and earth. I hope you are beginning to see just how close and far away the Father is.
Just carefully read what we have talked about, until you agree or disagree. You have called me out on a big topic, I'm learning myself so lets just agree to reason together.
Its late time for bed God Bless you Anastacia.
I have carefully read what we have talked about....and I'll read it over many times. I'm thankful to have you to study this with. God bless you. And good night. =]
There you go again making false accusations against me when I have given you no cause to do so. Right off the bat you tried to bring denominationalism into our discussion which was totally irrelevant to sticking to the Scripture as written. I nipped your attempt on that and that upset you. That you are in confusion with the false idea that Jesus was created before He was born in the flesh is simply a fact, because of all the Biblical evidence against that doctrine. I'm not going to sugarcoat that fact no matter who you are, or who you think you are.
When you're prepared to apologize to me for your initial unwarranted attacks, then I will do the same.
Exactly! And that's how it's used in Col.1:15 about Christ, as an expression of preeminence over all things.
I didn't make any false accusations to you. You did defend the belief of Satan creating humans. And I did not try to bring in denominationalism into our discussion. I was trying to see if there were many others with your belief. You didn't nip any thing in the bud, and the only thing that is upsetting is these constant false accusations. What do yo mean "who you think you are"?
Let's get along better than this, okay? Here's my apology---I'm sorry. What am I sorry for? I'm sorry that we are getting along so bad. Do you accept my apology?
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