Understanding The Trinity ???
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In reflecting on the conversations I sincerely hope and am sure of in myself, I have not over stepped my intent, to share some insight without having to resort to my opinion. To reflect on that which I can not improve upon, that is Paul's letter, Col 1:15-20 . But rather we have come to the same conclusion Paul did by examining the scriptures. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Again I realize I can't improve on Pauls choice of words even after the move into English, the first born. Lets just reflect on our discovery, confirming Paul was certainly speaking of both, first born "in the beginning and in salvation for mankind", as Anastacia was so persistent in knowing. This also points to our completed race 1 Cor 9:24 to know as we have been known 1 Cor 13:12 . And finally Romans 8:19 will come to pass. Sons as in more than one.
I can't point out the importance of the other end of this spectrum, The one we just looked at, who is Jesus from the beginning, He is the image of the invisible God, We have seen He walked with Noah and Abraham, in a "body". He then left His divine body to take on the flesh of mankind. I like my God He's a mans man He does not just sit on high like men today and speak of things they have never known, offering advice about things they themselves have not lived. But My God is a God of knowing, of doing, speaking and teaching of the things He knows and has done. I believe like wise He raises his children the same way. Jesus came and walked a life in the flesh of mankind to please His Father, He expects no less from us, under His divine counselor the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 2:14 Romans 8:3 Hebrews 2:17-18 Hebrews 4:15-16 . So lets all go out and do as Jesus told the Samaritan woman and take a deep drink from the well of Life.
[sup]13[/sup] Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, [sup]14[/sup] but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
[sup]15[/sup] The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
The water is right there but you have to draw the water out. Rev 3:20
I can't point out the importance of the other end of this spectrum, The one we just looked at, who is Jesus from the beginning, He is the image of the invisible God, We have seen He walked with Noah and Abraham, in a "body". He then left His divine body to take on the flesh of mankind. I like my God He's a mans man He does not just sit on high like men today and speak of things they have never known, offering advice about things they themselves have not lived. But My God is a God of knowing, of doing, speaking and teaching of the things He knows and has done. I believe like wise He raises his children the same way. Jesus came and walked a life in the flesh of mankind to please His Father, He expects no less from us, under His divine counselor the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 2:14 Romans 8:3 Hebrews 2:17-18 Hebrews 4:15-16 . So lets all go out and do as Jesus told the Samaritan woman and take a deep drink from the well of Life.
[sup]13[/sup] Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, [sup]14[/sup] but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
[sup]15[/sup] The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
The water is right there but you have to draw the water out. Rev 3:20
You sure did not disappoint my expectations for a serious and deep discussion of this difficult topic. I'm so thankful for having this conversation with you. May our Shepherd keep us away from false doctrine, as we trust in Him to lead us to all truth.
Sometimes a bit of contrast makes the picture easier to see.
I don't necessarily support what the author of this video teaches, but its the contrast from my own understanding in Wommacks teaching I find interesting.
Wommacks teaching on the Word from about 6:20 to 7:30 He says that Jesus is the result of the spoken word of men.
I don't necessarily support what the author of this video teaches, but its the contrast from my own understanding in Wommacks teaching I find interesting.
Wommacks teaching on the Word from about 6:20 to 7:30 He says that Jesus is the result of the spoken word of men.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Aspen, you got that from the sign of the cross didn't you?
For the Holy Spirit you said "soul." The Holy Spirit is a Spirit. A soul is a spirit with a human body.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
You got that from the sign of the cross, didn't you? And you said the Holy Spirit was "soul." The Holy Spirit is Spirit.
I'd like to add John 1:1 to this.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is not a creation.
I also think the "Did Jesus have a body in heaven" is really a redundant argument because in my opinion, being created in the image of God could mean his nature (which is what I think it references). We cannot be created in the image of a physical body as then, what bodies are we given at the end times? Ones NOT in his nature? But one way or the other I really don't think this is a point to spend much time on.
As far as Christ being the firstborn...
I HIGHLY suggest you guys check out Matt Chandler's sermon series on Colossians.
http://fm.thevillage...rmons&match=any
It is one of THE BEST series I have ever listened to. I believe Part 4 is the one that addresses this, I recommend the whole series though, you won't be disappointed.
If you don't want to listen to Part 4, here's a transcript of it: http://fm.thevillage...eEternalSon.pdf
That said, this series made me a huge Chandler fan. He does an excellent job with it, discusses the historical background, great exegesis, and pulls a ton more out of the first chapter of Colossians than what one would think you can pull out of it (Colossians has become one of my favorite books).
And here's a snippet speaking of the Firstborn (No use me telling you about it when Chandler does such an excellent job). Note again, it's a transcript so it won't read as well as something written.
On a side note, it also calls Jesus the firstborn from among the dead. Now that’s great news
because that means there will be others. There will be more. If you get a chance this week, I
strongly recommend you read 1 Corinthians 15 where it talks about His resurrection from the
dead. I think Christians are very confused about this subject in regards to our resurrection. I’ve
heard preachers and pastors come out of 1 Corinthians 15 at funerals where it says, “Where oh
death is your victory? Where oh death is your sting?” And I always want to go, “Right here!
We’re at a funeral. There’s a body in a casket. The sting is right here.” The point of 1
Corinthians 15 isn’t that death doesn’t sting and hurt right now. The point of 1 Corinthians 15 is
that there’s coming a day where we’ll have new, imperishable bodies, bodies that will never die,
will not grow weary, will not grow faint. That day is coming. It’s not some ethereal, float up, sit
on a cloud, play a harp; that’s not our future. Strong, physical, undying, unable to get sick,
glorious bodies given to us at the resurrection, that’s the promise of 1 Corinthians 15 and that’s
what Jesus purchased for us in the cross and the resurrection. He is the firstborn from among the
dead, and we will join Him. That’s when death no longer has sting, that’s when death no longer
has victory, that’s when it’s swallowed up, when death is no more. That’s when it’s over. So we
put a lot of hope there. We put a lot of trust there, a lot of confidence there.
Hi TexUs, I'll check out the links you gave. I do want to say that I see the scriptures about God creating Jesus, then Jesus creating the whole universe. Jesus had a body when he came to Earth, and Jesus was given his gloried body when he went back to Heaven. Jesus is the beginning and the end, the first and the last. God had the plan of salvation before the world was created. Jesus was with God from the beginning, Jesus was God. Don't know why you have a hard time seeing that Jesus was created by God for an Earthly body, but not before he came to Earth.
I want to ask you if you believe in the life of the spirit after the death of the physical, earthly body? It sounds like you don't.
What scripture are you using that Jesus was a created being?
I really don't know how you can say "Jesus was and was with God" in the beginning and come away with him being a created being? How does God create another God but yet still be of himself?
I do, I don't know why you'd think I'd disagree?
Here are some scriptures for you to consider:
Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Did you see that? God made the universe THROUGH Jesus.
Colossians 1:5 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
As for my wondering if you believed in the life of the spirit after death of the body.....it was something about the way you brought up and explained 1 Corinthians 15. Glad to hear you believe in the life of the spirit.
Hebrews 1:2... Of course, he made the universe through Christ, Colossians supports this as well. How is this evidence for Jesus being a created being?
Colossians 1:5... Firstborn among the dead, is what's supported, in my opinion (look at v18).
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
The word 'firstborn' in this context is not to be understood literally as in 'first in time.' The 'firstborn' in Hebrew culture would often refer to one who was head, chief, supreme or preeminent. This is exactly what we have described in Col. 1:15-18. Christ as the fountainhead or source of all things is preeminent above all things in the Universe and the Church. The word 'firstborn' has nothing to do with the physical body the Son received at his incarnation. Read through the passage quoted above and pay close attention to how Christ's preeminence is described in each verse. Also, if you would like to see an OT example of the word 'firstborn' in action, see the portion of a messianic Psalm I quote below.
Psa 89:27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
The word 'firstborn' in this context is not to be understood literally as in 'first in time.' The 'firstborn' in Hebrew culture would often refer to one who was head, chief, supreme or preeminent. This is exactly what we have described in Col. 1:15-18. Christ as the fountainhead or source of all things is preeminent above all things in the Universe and the Church. The word 'firstborn' has nothing to do with the physical body the Son received at his incarnation. Read through the passage quoted above and pay close attention to how Christ's preeminence is described in each verse. Also, if you would like to see an OT example of the word 'firstborn' in action, see the portion of a messianic Psalm I quote below.
Psa 89:27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.
If you really want to know about how the first born over all creation is what I believe from the scriptures, then maybe it will help to read everything bud02 and I posted to each other. Some people only feel secure in believing what their religion/pastors teach them, but some people believe that the Holy Spirit teaches them. I like reading and learning from other Christians, but ultimately I only believe what the Holy Spirit leads me to believe and accept.
I read what you and bud posted however I really don't see anything that supports Christ being created. One cannot use Colossians as the firstborn term is later clarified with the "dead" term by Paul.
Since God made everything through Jesus....then you have to figure it out. If you don't see it....then you don't see it. It is in the scriptures. If you believe God and Jesus are one, and that Jesus is the visible of the invisible God....and you still can't see it, then that's all I can tell you.
So answer this: Do you believe Jesus is God in the flesh? If yes, then do you believe while Jesus was on earth, that there was still God, the Father, in Heaven? Or, are you a oneness Penecostal?
You easily enough admit that Jesus was born (created) on earth, but you don't want to admit he was alive first in Heaven?
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