Pray Instead?

[[email protected]]

God judges, not us. Just because you feel that they deserve a prison term, does not mean that God feels the same way. The end is not here quite yet, God can still turn this country around. How big is your faith? Is it big enough to believe God to turn this country around, or do we just throw our hands up in the air and ride the wave and do nothing about it?

The simple truth is that you are in denial.
Divine judgment is already upon us. Are you blind?

I have been hearing the same clap trap for forty years and the American condition hasn't changed (meaning our national attitude toward God). If anything it's gotten worse. A LOT worse.

Beginning in the late 50's a call to repentance went out. It was uttered by many preachers. As the years went on the choir of voices became louder. Here are a few.

"We are at a turning point in our history. Too many of us now tend to worship self-indulgence and consumption. Human identity is no longer defined by what one does, but by what one owns. This is not a message of happiness or reassurance, but it is the truth. It is a warning."
- President Jimmy Carter

"A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death."
M.L. King

"Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as His divine messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with justice and it seems that I can hear God saying to America,
'You are too arrogant. If you don't change your ways I will rise up and break the back bone of your power.'"
- Rev Martin Luther King Jr. (circa 1967)

In the late 1960's and early 1970's the Holy Spirit initiated a nation wide revival. The event made all the newspapers and a portrait of Jesus even graced the cover of TIME magazine. What happened after that was very sad. The major main stream denominations rejected the Holy Spirit. I had the embarassing misfortune to witness that personally and participate in the debate. I was even present at some of the meetings of my own denomination, which was Episcopal at the time.

Following the revival the voices urging repentance grew less and less. Frequent calls for a national day of prayer also became less frequent. Today I can't remember the last time the president of the united States issued a proclamation for a national day of prayer.

The united States has passed the point of no return and is presently under judgment. Statements that "we are on the edge" or "at a tipping point" or "the end is not quite here yet" are merely meant to postpone the acceptance of personal and national spiritual responsibility. God's deferrment of judgment is meant to allow man time to repent. Man's deferrment of judgment is meant to allow his own sin and rebellion to continue.

Time is up.

America is being judged for its arrogance and its foolishness.

For the arrogance of military and monetary supremacy, we are drinking the vintage of war and greed. Our blood and our resources are to be endlessly pillaged at the feet of the putrid flag of rabid nationalism. The Pentagon, which is now a second government beyond civilian control, has built a war machine that is larger than the next fifteen nations combined. Twelve of them are allies.
Financially, we are now witnessing the greatest transfer of wealth to occur in all of human history. None can deny it. There is no longer ANY gold or silver to back American currency and there hasn't been any for many years. Our currency isn't worth the paper its printed on.

For the foolishness of passive indifference toward Heaven, God has denied us wisdom.

On September 16,1985 America crossed the line. That's a while ago isn't it? What happened then? The uS Commerce Dept. declared that America had become a debitor nation. Nobody much cared what that announcement meant at the time. Today we know. Everybody knows.

What have we been praying for during the past forty years? Wisdom for our leaders. What have we gotten? Foolishness and greed. Look and look hard at reality. Our crooked leaders are robbing us hand over fist. Our honest leaders stumble around in confused circles like a man who has been hit in the head with a baseball bat. Other leaders are consumed with sexual lust, a matter which claims no ones' attention any more.

We should have been praying for repentance for ourselves as well as our leaders. We should have spent our time building reliance upon the mercy of God instead of wasting it on the biggest military industrial complex in history. Today THEY rule our hearts, not God.

The land that most of us grew up in is already gone. What remains is but the empty shell of greatness. America is doomed.

There remains yet a hope for those who are called by the name of Christ. Prayers on behalf of brothers and sisters may yet result in mercy from the Most High. That is my daily request, anyway. I do not pray for our leaders. They are beyond hope. I pray instead for those who know and fear God. May those of us called by His name find mercy.

WAKE UP.....or go back to sleep and say nothing.

 

[burningfire]

The simple truth is that you are in denial.
Divine judgment is already upon us. Are you blind?

I have been hearing the same clap trap for forty years and the American condition hasn't changed (meaning our national attitude toward God). If anything it's gotten worse. A LOT worse.

Beginning in the late 50's a call to repentance went out. It was uttered by many preachers. As the years went on the choir of voices became louder. Here are a few.

"We are at a turning point in our history. Too many of us now tend to worship self-indulgence and consumption. Human identity is no longer defined by what one does, but by what one owns. This is not a message of happiness or reassurance, but it is the truth. It is a warning."
- President Jimmy Carter

"A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death."
M.L. King

"Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as His divine messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with justice and it seems that I can hear God saying to America,
'You are too arrogant. If you don't change your ways I will rise up and break the back bone of your power.'"
- Rev Martin Luther King Jr. (circa 1967)

In the late 1960's and early 1970's the Holy Spirit initiated a nation wide revival. The event made all the newspapers and a portrait of Jesus even graced the cover of TIME magazine. What happened after that was very sad. The major main stream denominations rejected the Holy Spirit. I had the embarassing misfortune to witness that personally and participate in the debate. I was even present at some of the meetings of my own denomination, which was Episcopal at the time.

Following the revival the voices urging repentance grew less and less. Frequent calls for a national day of prayer also became less frequent. Today I can't remember the last time the president of the united States issued a proclamation for a national day of prayer.

The united States has passed the point of no return and is presently under judgment. Statements that "we are on the edge" or "at a tipping point" or "the end is not quite here yet" are merely meant to postpone the acceptance of personal and national spiritual responsibility. God's deferrment of judgment is meant to allow man time to repent. Man's deferrment of judgment is meant to allow his own sin and rebellion to continue.

Time is up.

America is being judged for its arrogance and its foolishness.

For the arrogance of military and monetary supremacy, we are drinking the vintage of war and greed. Our blood and our resources are to be endlessly pillaged at the feet of the putrid flag of rabid nationalism. The Pentagon, which is now a second government beyond civilian control, has built a war machine that is larger than the next fifteen nations combined. Twelve of them are allies.
Financially, we are now witnessing the greatest transfer of wealth to occur in all of human history. None can deny it. There is no longer ANY gold or silver to back American currency and there hasn't been any for many years. Our currency isn't worth the paper its printed on.

For the foolishness of passive indifference toward Heaven, God has denied us wisdom.

On September 16,1985 America crossed the line. That's a while ago isn't it? What happened then? The uS Commerce Dept. declared that America had become a debitor nation. Nobody much cared what that announcement meant at the time. Today we know. Everybody knows.

What have we been praying for during the past forty years? Wisdom for our leaders. What have we gotten? Foolishness and greed. Look and look hard at reality. Our crooked leaders are robbing us hand over fist. Our honest leaders stumble around in confused circles like a man who has been hit in the head with a baseball bat. Other leaders are consumed with sexual lust, a matter which claims no ones' attention any more.

We should have been praying for repentance for ourselves as well as our leaders. We should have spent our time building reliance upon the mercy of God instead of wasting it on the biggest military industrial complex in history. Today THEY rule our hearts, not God.

The land that most of us grew up in is already gone. What remains is but the empty shell of greatness. America is doomed.

There remains yet a hope for those who are called by the name of Christ. Prayers on behalf of brothers and sisters may yet result in mercy from the Most High. That is my daily request, anyway. I do not pray for our leaders. They are beyond hope. I pray instead for those who know and fear God. May those of us called by His name find mercy.

WAKE UP.....or go back to sleep and say nothing.

I am not disagreeing with your post. What you state is true, but it does not mean we cannot pray for salvation for our leaders. Nobody is beyond hope for God. This country is being judged for the junk it has done and because it lost sight of God.

 

[[email protected]]

I am not disagreeing with your post. What you state is true, but it does not mean we cannot pray for salvation for our leaders. Nobody is beyond hope for God. This country is being judged for the junk it has done and because it lost sight of God.

The dead are beyond hope. Those that pray for the dead are wasting their time. They do not have God's ear in the matter.

Prayers for our leaders are like prayers for a dead body; a complete waste of time. Want proof? Prayers for wisdom for our leaders have been going up for the past forty years. I think it's safe to say those prayers haven't been answered. Why? How do you spell judgment?

THE DEAD ARE BEYOND HOPE.

The body of Christ is alive and I pray daily for all those in this country who are called by the name of Christ.

It is better to pray for a live body than a dead one.

 

[Foreigner]

The dead are beyond hope. Those that pray for the dead are wasting their time. They do not have God's ear in the matter.

Prayers for our leaders are like prayers for a dead body; a complete waste of time.

-- Since God hasn't answered prayer to the degree that YOU expect it to be answered, it is a "complete waste of time."

Congratulations, though, on negating the whole idea of praying for those who are lost to find God and be saved.

Apparently you think God is not up to the challenge....

 

[[email protected]]

-- Since God hasn't answered prayer to the degree that YOU expect it to be answered, it is a "complete waste of time."

Congratulations, though, on negating the whole idea of praying for those who are lost to find God and be saved.

Apparently you think God is not up to the challenge....

Nice job of denial in the first part and redirection in the second. You nearly pulled it off. Nearly, but not quite.

For the latter, I never said or implied that one ought not pray for the lost. Ever.
My statement was clearly and repeatedly that prayers for OUR LEADERS are a waste of time. God does not hear them.
Want scripture references? I can supply a bushel of them upon request.

Again, what prayers are made of God on behalf of our leaders? For the past forty or fifty years those prayers have been for wisdom. I know, I've been there to read the petitions and hear the requests for prayer to go up to God.

The criteria for any answered prayer is that it be answered. duh?
One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

So then, back to your first objection, it does appear that you are in denial.
This is the first stage of mental adjustment to a prognosis of death. In this case, national.
Second stage is grief. There are a lot of people in the second category these days.
Third stage is acceptance. That's me in case you haven't guessed.
The forth stage is burial and I hope I'm not around for that show, thank you very much.

Whether God is up to the challenge or not is academic. What God IS DOING is at hand.
Judgment is upon the united States.
For the sin of arrogance, we drink the cup of foolishness & confusion. Is this not a perfect description of Washington?
For the sin of passive indifference, we drink the cup of godless religion, perpetual indulgence of the flesh and attacks upon the foundations of our faith.
"Rare is the church today THAT HAS A REAL IMPACT on the lives of those who attend."
- Dallas Willard
THE DIVINE CONSPIRACY

Wake up and smell the coffee. It's a lot later than you think.

Instead of filling one's mind with fantasies about the way things OUGHT to be or the way one WISHES they are, a very sober examination of American society is in order.

But you have to pull your head out of the sand first, or wherever else it's buried.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
BTW Ever hear of Cinco de Mayo?

It's the same day this year as the National Day of Prayer. Mexican-Americans & Americans in general celebrate the victory of the Mexican army over the French in 1862. It is generally accepted as a celebration of Mexican heritage and pride.

On May 5, 2011, will Americans be celebrating PRIDE or HUMBLING themselves before God in prayer?
Will they be partying and imbibing the spirits of tequila by the gallon or seeking the Holy Spirit of God in humility?

You don't have to be a mind reader to guess what I think they'll be doing.

 

[Foreigner]

Nice job of denial in the first part and redirection in the second. You nearly pulled it off. Nearly, but not quite.

For the latter, I never said or implied that one ought not pray for the lost. Ever.
My statement was clearly and repeatedly that prayers for OUR LEADERS are a waste of time. God does not hear them.

-- Very nice. You contradict yourself within one paragraph.
I never said you said you shouldn't pray for the last. I pointed out that you said we shouldn't waste our time praying for leaders because it is "a waste of time." If they need prayer then they likely aren't walking in God's will, correct?

So tell me, if they are not doing God's will........are they not lost.

Please try to focus:

"exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2

What YOU'RE saying is that we should ignore what Timothy calls us to do in God's divinely inspired Word.......Gosh, what a great idea!

Again, what prayers are made of God on behalf of our leaders? For the past forty or fifty years those prayers have been for wisdom. I know, I've been there to read the petitions and hear the requests for prayer to go up to God.

-- You of course know what the only prayers for world leaders have been for the last 50 years, and no one has prayed for anything other than wisdom, even though it calls for us to pray for more than that in the scripture from Timothy that I provided.

And you OF COURSE somehow know that NONE of those prayers have EVER been answered over the last 50 years. LOL Good luck with that.


With claims like that, followed by your classy responses of "duh?" and "But you have to pull your head out of the sand first, or wherever else it's buried" and then a sidetrack to Cinco De Mayo, one is left wondering which medications you forgot to take this morning.




.

 

[Angelina]

The dead are beyond hope. Those that pray for the dead are wasting their time. They do not have God's ear in the matter.

Prayers for our leaders are like prayers for a dead body; a complete waste of time. Want proof? Prayers for wisdom for our leaders have been going up for the past forty years. I think it's safe to say those prayers haven't been answered. Why? How do you spell judgment

Were we not once like the Gentiles [unbelievers] and without hope also? ....

Ephesians 2

[sup]1[/sup] And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, [sup]2[/sup] in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, [sup]3[/sup] among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
[sup]4[/sup] But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, [sup]5[/sup] even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), [sup]6[/sup] and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [sup]7[/sup] that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [sup]8[/sup] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [sup]9[/sup] not of works, lest anyone should boast. [sup]10[/sup] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
[sup]11[/sup] Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— [sup]12[/sup] that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [sup]13[/sup] But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

I praise God that we are still able to pray for those who are unable to pray for themselves because they are blinded by the enemy of this world. Just as we once were once enemies of the cross... and just as they are right now....

Matthew 5
[sup]43[/sup] “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ [sup]44[/sup] But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, [sup]45[/sup] that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. [sup]46[/sup] For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? [sup]47[/sup] And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? [sup]48[/sup] Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Be Blessed!

 

[[email protected]]

-- Very nice. You contradict yourself within one paragraph.
I never said you said you shouldn't pray for the last. I pointed out that you said we shouldn't waste our time praying for leaders because it is "a waste of time." If they need prayer then they likely aren't walking in God's will, correct?

So tell me, if they are not doing God's will........are they not lost.

Looking or talking like a Christian, as politicans do, doesn't make them one.
Being out of God's will, or not doing it doesn't equate to being lost or unsaved either.
This is not a difficult concept. Please try to keep up.

Have you never encountered a Christian who was out of God's will in their lives?
The tone of your posts and objections suggests that you probably put me in that category. Are you now judging a brother because of his political views? hmmmmm

A boy I know recently got a new tattoo. It's a cross wrapped in an American flag. Disgusting to my way of thinking, yet it probably makes him popular in biker bars.
The image on his skin (a violation of O.T. law BTW), is above his rib cage beneath his right arm.

OK, so now he thinks he has Jesus on his side. On his side, get it?

Americans have a similarly grotesque view of their political righteousness before God.
They drape their crosses with the stars and stripes, believing that they are beyond divine reproach and that God is obliged to bless them because of it.

NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IS FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

You can quote scripture all day to justify American duplicity, but you will never succeed in impressing God with it.
It didn't work with Jesus when satan tried it and it won't work today when Americans quote the Bible and go on sinning so willfully.

America is now under divine judgment. My DAILY prayer is for the deliverance of all those who are called by Christ's name FROM WASHINGTON'S WICKEDNESS.

We as a people have been betrayed by our own government and I for one will not add a single prayer of support to these liars, thieves and murderers who committ their crimes in the name of God and the American people.

NEVER.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

"Disbelief in God can lead a poor soul into believing in government and business."


Thought this group would like this.

 

[[email protected]]

"Disbelief in God can lead a poor soul into believing in government and business."


Thought this group would like this.

Well said.

Humanity is hard wired to believe in something greater than itself.

Even atheists.

The problem is that when people reject God they are FORCED by their own nature (which they cannot change) to focus their allegiance upon something else.
Some become hedonists, others worship science, but most worship the state and/or its' national leaders.

The problem with worshipping the state is that the state in turn is corruptable. If it becomes debauched, then there are no rules at all to keep the government from doing whatever it pleases TO WHOMEVER it pleases.

Atheists will justify this state-worship by denying that the bloodiest wars in history, those of the twentieth century, were motivated and prosecuted by atheist or godless governments; NAZI Germany, Stalinist Russia, Fascist Italy, Imperial Japan, Communist China and North Korea.

Unfortunately, America is already in that condition. Prayer in public and even some private institutions is now illegal. Christianity and the name of God is being mocked openly (on billboards in some cases). This was never the intent of the Constitutional separation of church and state, yet corrupted society encourages it because the practice SEEMS to remove man's responsibility to a higher power. American militaristic nationalism is at a level higher than at any other time in its history. Governmental policies are not seriously questioned or reversed AT ALL because such examination is considered unpatriotic or seditious. The major portion of blame for this lies squarely in the lap of American churches for it is there that the garden of faith in government alone has been cultivated while the name of Christ is ignored. And we wonder why the godless grow audacious.

It is absolutely essential that humanity believe and act on the belief of a power higher than itself.
There will never be peace on this planet until such a belief is accepted by all it's residents.

 

[Foreigner]

"exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2



- Sorry rjp, you can continue to type until you think you've finally found something to say, but...

 

[[email protected]]

"exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2



- Sorry rjp, you can continue to type until you think you've finally found something to say, but...

Many Christians today pray for a debauched government while the ship of state sinks slowly into the fetid excrement it has made for itself.

THE BIGGEST problem today isn't the corruption in Washington, it's the Laodicean church that sits in its luke warm pews saluting the flag of the most aggressive war mongering nation on earth (three wars simultaneously now and TWO MORE in sight = a total of 5). Even our allies acknowledge it - our 'good' Christian churches don't - or won't. To do otherwise would require a bit of honesty and courage and might actually result in action.

What do you pray when you pray for our leaders? Wisdom? It has escaped them. Such prayers are NOT heard. Open your eyes and look if you are not too afraid to see it.

Do you pray for compassion from our leaders? Even as we argue here they are forming their plans to rob our pay checks and steal from the aged and infirm. Do you deny it or will you pretend it isn't happening?

What is the scripture you quoted?......"that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity"

ARE WE living a tranquil and quiet life or is there a storm sweeping down upon us that will blow away our way of life, our hope for the future and even our very freedom to pray those prayers?

You have quoted scripture well, but it is an exhortation to persons and individuals. READ what the Bible says God's attitude is about NATIONS which have turned their backs upon Him.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa 59:2

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
Mic 3:4

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them: so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surly hide my face in that day for all the evils, which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
Deuteronomy 31:17-18

Are you a Christian, sir? Do you pray as you argue others ought? Are you a moral person? If so, you do well.

Surely you can not and do not turn a blind eye to the absolute corruption and debauchery in which our leaders have sunk. Come now and give an honest answer, do you not see it? If you are an honest man, and I have no reason to suppose you are not, you will admit to it.

What point am I trying to make here?

My point first and foremost is to attempt by whatever logic, or argument, or persistance, or device I can find to inspire Christians in the truth that God is opposed to the direction the united States is taking and the leadership behind it.

If God is just, then He must be opposed to these men and women who seek to plunder us and ruin us all.

I will not waste my time praying for a debauched government any more than Lot wasted his time praying for his wicked town.
When Abraham petititioned God, did he pray for the leaders of Sodom and Gomorrah or did he pray for the righteous who lived there?
I choose the way of Abraham and not the politically correct way of today's American church.

I PRAY for all those who are called by the name of Christ.
Is that wrong or opposed to scriptural precedent? It certainly is not.
I include you in the group I pray for sir, whether you agree with me or not.

God has a way of dealing with these situations and I fear that He has much in store for America that will not be seen to be pleasant or good.

A hurricane is now upon us which will sweep away the wicked and all their deeds.
I live in Florida and have lived through many such storms.
Know this, that every hurricane has a peaceful calm eye.
It is my ardent prayer that those who are called by the name of Christ will be led by His gracious providence into that eye - while the storm ravages everything beyond the eyewall.

May you find peace there as well, even if you continue to bend the knee on behalf of those who care not for your soul, your life or the country that once was ours.

 

[Foreigner]

Sorry rjp, but your whole post comes down to telling people not do what we are scripturally called to do:


exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2


Sorry, but I am going to have to go with what God says over what you say.

Tough call, but.....;)

 

[[email protected]]

Sorry rjp, but your whole post comes down to telling people not do what we are scripturally called to do:


exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2


Sorry, but I am going to have to go with what God says over what you say.

Tough call, but.....;)

Did you not read how Abraham behaved in the same situation? HE prayed for the righteous, not that God would spare the cities.
If you pray for God to spare the wickedness of our leaders, you may either find yourself praying against God's will or simply wasting your time.
As I stated before, prayers for wisdom on the part of our leaders FOR THE PAST FORTY YEARS have gone unheard.
The situation has become worse, not better.
Are you blind or simply indifferent to the truth?

I pray as I see the need. The need of the righteous today is greater than the need of a corrupt government.
In fact, one of the main reasons for the war mongering and debauchery in Washinton is that Good Christians don't question what's going on at all.
Their attitude is that they were voted in and after that we have nothing to do with their actions.
Irresponsible and blind indifference! Unpatriotic and inhumane!

You are free to assume whatever attitude you wish, but when the shouting is over and things get really really worse will you continue to pray that the wicked continue to rule over us? Many "good Christians" with that same attitude lived in Germany during the 1930's and continued to pray for their government, even as it was bombed into oblivion around them. Theirs was a corrupt and wicked regime, but they never saw it. Likewise in the 1860's the "good Christians" of the southern uS prayed for God to support their government, which included slavery - one of the most heinous crimes against humanity.

So go ahead and shut your eyes to what is really going on and waste your prayers on a government that God has abandoned. You have the right to waste your time.

I prefer to follow the example of Abraham, whom God reckoned as righteous, and pray for the righteous THAT WE BE DELIVERED from our leaders and that OUR LEADERS are called to justice.

America is now under the judgment of God. For its arrogance, we drink the cup of foolishness (lack of wisdom) and aggressive militarism.
For our passive indifference toward God, we drink the cup of depravity and witness the pointless loss of the blood of our young and the profit of our hard work.

 

[Foreigner]

Again, if it comes down to you or what God says to do in his divinely inspired Word, I gotta go with God.


Unlike you, I don't feel qualified to question Him or claim that what He says to do is a waste of time.


I choose simply to obey.


exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2

 

[[email protected]]

Again, if it comes down to you or what God says to do in his divinely inspired Word, I gotta go with God.


Unlike you, I don't feel qualified to question Him or claim that what He says to do is a waste of time.


I choose simply to obey.


exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2

Do you obey God or your American jingoist mentality?

This is such a thing as right and wrong.
Using scripture to justify the illegal, unjust, immoral actions of a corrupt government won't get one's prayers heard.

My country right or wrong doesn't work with God. You don't have to be a rocket scientist or theologian to figure that one out.
Unfortunately the idea that "my country" could be wrong is usually over the head of those who see stars and strips instead of the cross (or maybe because the cross lately is covered by the flag).

Ask yourself if your convictions are inspired by American exceptionalist patriotism or from an honest intent to seek God's heart in righteousness and truth.

In all our dialogue, you continue to support the country - never a righteous attitude. I wonder why.

 

[[email protected]]

There is yet another BIBLICAL precedent for 'throwing stones' at a God ordained leader - and NOT praying for him.

Consider King David of 1st and 2nd Samuel. This is he of whom it was said that 'this is a man after God's own heart'.
Yet David sinned against God and man by taking a woman not his wife.
Even David was subject to the judgment of God for his sexual aberrantions (shall America escape?).

David's son rose up and seized the kingdom away from him for a time.
The passage of scripture in 2 Samuel 16:5-13 sees the former king fleeing for his life.

I'll not quote it all, but please don't let that stop you from looking it up if you dare.

As David and his motley crew fled the wrath of his son Absolom the man Shimei found them and began to hurl insults.
Shimei cursed David and even threw stones and gravel at him. One of his soldiers wanted to kill the man for his insults.

And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more may this Benjamite now do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him.
2Sa 16:11

So David and his men went by the way: and Shimei went along on the hill side over against him, and cursed as he went, and threw stones at him, and cast dust.
2Sa 16:13

It would be within the scope of scripture for me to begin to utter curses against our leaders.
Yet all I am doing is refraining from prayer for them, begging instead that the deliverance of God benefit the righteous (including you, sir).

How many Biblical precedents and examples do you require?
It is NOT an axiom that one pray for a wicked leader.
THAT is a lie thrust upon us by the warmongers and propagandists who have wrapped themselves in a bloody, unjust and lying flag.

I prefer the holy cross and truth of Jesus Christ.

 

[Foreigner]

How many Biblical precedents and examples do you require?
It is NOT an axiom that one pray for a wicked leader.

-- LOL Enhance your calm. If I was to follow what you are saying, that means David should have only been prayed for when he WAS FOLLOWING GOD. And when he needed prayer most, we should not have lifted him up to God for guidance and correction.


I read what you said about David and you miss an important part: Jesus said to pray for those who hurt you.


Would that not include errant leaders whose actions hurt us in many ways and on many levels?


You also make a giant leap in that one example to say it only proves that we should not pray for any of today's leaders.


Sorry, but that is ridiculous.

I prefer the holy cross and truth of Jesus Christ.

And yet you reject His Word...


exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2


Sorry, but searching God's Word to find a way to try to void what Jesus calls us to do is hardly the best use of your time.


Sincere prayer NEVER comes back void. Even if it doesn't help those you wish to help in the way you hoped, it strengthens your relationship with God and you are blessed for it. It's called "Blessings through Obedience."


Strange...
According to you, God will smile down on you and say "Well done, good and faithful servant" if you intentionally DON'T pray for someone.


Good luck with that.





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[[email protected]]

Sincere prayer NEVER comes back void.

We now see your true colors, that you have made your prayers equal to the promises and work of God Himself.

You have attempted to ascend to the very throne of God by means of the self-importance of your petitions. Such is the trap and lie of satan, which I reject entirely. You have been persuaded to believe a lie.

You continue to misquote and misunderstand every single assertion I've made and now claim to be as holy and almighty as God Himself. This is exactly the attitude of exceptionism that Americans have fallen prey to.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa 59:2

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
Mic 3:4

You are very busy editing out all the truth of God's word, substituting your own brand instead.

According to the passages I've quoted, there ARE times when sincere prayer isn't heard.
Yet you deny the plain intent of scripture each and every time.
Where do these words come from may I ask?
Do they or do they not apply to America?

If your prayers for our leaders have indeed been heard by God, then tell my why is so much corruption debauchery and wickedness still present in Washington? Are you supporting this activity by your prayers or are you opposing it? If supporting, then I am forced to agree that your prayers have been heard. If opposing, then why haven't they been heard?
The cop out reasoning is to say that you've not been praying hard enough. I don't buy it and I doubt you do.

For prayer to be heard by God, it must be in accord with His will.

I reiterate that God will not hear ANY prayers that support wicked leadership.
The Lord of Lords puts men upon the thrones of earth and takes them down again.
If He judges one such man to be wicked and deserving of removal, will ANY prayers prevent it?

That is my argument simply stated.
No prayer will support a wicked leader, nor will it sway God from His purpose to punish such a man AS WELL AS THE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT HIM.

Know this, that if the time came that God did not listen to the prayers of His own people Israel, then He will certainly not hear the prayers of America in the midst of its arrogance, rebellion and sin.

First must come petitions of humble sincere repentance.
The LAST THING you'll hear from America these days is humility.
We are a proud people and the only way that will happen is if God forces us to our knees.

I fear that such a judgment is exactly what is happening.
Things have gone so bad that nothing will stop it, even your holy prayers.

 

[Foreigner]

We now see your true colors, that you have made your prayers equal to the promises and work of God Himself.

You have attempted to ascend to the very throne of God by means of the self-importance of your petitions. Such is the trap and lie of satan, which I reject entirely. You have been persuaded to believe a lie.

You continue to misquote and misunderstand every single assertion I've made and now claim to be as holy and almighty as God Himself. This is exactly the attitude of exceptionism that Americans have fallen prey to.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa 59:2

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
Mic 3:4

- rjp, you are doing the very thing you claim I am doing LOL


You posted two scriptures - in red, no less - but you leave out the part that they are talking about people caught up in sin who themselves have put the block between themselves and God.


I was not aware that I had to dumb down my explanation to include that the person praying is one who has been earnestly striving to live a Christ-like life.


We are told in Hebrews that we can "boldly" approach the Throne of Grace. That is because if we truly are Christians, we are joint heirs with Jesus and are allowed to pray with confidence. Not because we have earned it, but because God's grace and mercy allow it.


Your claim of "self-importance" in these prayers is as comical as it is dishonest. You, if you truly are a Christian, understand that your right to approach God is because of His grace and mercy and not anything you have done or earned, OR the specific topic you wish to approach him with.


No one -- except you -- is claiming a "self-importance of their petitions."




exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2

In Timothy we are called to pray for our leaders ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^


You are telling me that we should ignore the instruction of God's divinely inspired scripture. Repeatedly, no less. Sorry, no can do.



PS - If you are going to claim that I am continuing to "misquote and misunderstand every single assertion I've made" you should give an example of what I claim and what you actually said. That might accidentally give something you say credence.

Otherwise, you are simply fulfilling the role of the whining child.