Pray Instead?

[Episkopos]

...so...nobody thinks we should pray for the guy...? i was hoping to get some input on this.

I believe that this should be the extent of our involvement in the things of this world. We are to pray for those in the temporal governments.

BTW This is my first real post here...so please go easy on me this time. ;)

 

[[email protected]]

-- You are asking what I meant when it is something YOU said.

Please reread ANY of my posts in this thread. I have NEVER said: ""In all our dialogue, you continue to support the country - never a righteous attitude. I wonder why."

Those are YOUR exact words. I have never said anything of the sort.

Please provide the exact quote I have made or go take your medication.

Please answer the question.......

I know what I said and what I meant when I wrote about American exceptionalist nationalism.

What did YOU mean.

 

[[email protected]]

I believe that this should be the extent of our involvement in the things of this world. We are to pray for those in the temporal governments.

BTW This is my first real post here...so please go easy on me this time. ;)

Two things I disagree with in your statement:

1.) That prayer is the total extent of involvement in the things of this world.

What about paying taxes, honorable loyalty to the government, military service when necessary and political responsibility?
Too many Christians and too many Americans in general believe that their only duty is to vote for their representatives and after that ignore what they do.
Do you grow a garden or farmer's field that way? Certainly not.
Planting a seed is only one step in a process of producing good fruit.
If you ignore the garden or field, then the insects and the weeds will take over and you'll have little or no profit for your effort.
Prayer is like that. It's a seed of faith and hope. Once done the citizen must get off their knees and pay attention to what their seed is becoming.

Someone once wrote that idle hands are the devil's workshop. Prayers are empty when physical action is called for afterwards.
We have been given hands to pray and to work, knees to submit to God and to walk in His world.

2.) There are a number of scriptures in the Bible which can be used to justify support for the temporal government.
There are also a number of passage in the N.T. which indicate that the Roman Empire was not as oppressive, unjust and corrupt as modern states.
For example:
"For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:"
Rom 13:3

As I've stated earlier, St. Paul was never persecuted for wearing Jewish skin, yet that happens frequently in the world today - even in America. What would the apostle say if he knew the present world condition?
In the thirteenth chapter of his epistle to the Romans, Paul wrote:
"Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience' sake."

Did you see the last part, "for conscience' sake"? What does that mean? I can tell you with certainty that it does NOT mean that a Christian citizen casts his vote and then ignores the process that follows.
For conscience sake, the Christian MUST continue to take an active role in the process.

The Bible goes much further in Christian duty than passive support of government. In Ephesians it says, "For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." Notice it says that we are to WRESTLE AGAINST wickedness. This passage is often used in regards to spiritual warfare, but in the case of politics prayer leads to action.

It is the Christian duty to education himself about the issues of the day and to respond to them in terms of physical political action. At the very least one MUST contact one's representatives vehemently and frequently in the form of letters and email. There are numerous lobby groups which are actively influencing legislation. If Christians do not speak, then those special interest groups are the only voices that will be heard.

Today the united States is consumed with unreasonable militarism. It has infected our society at every level and the principle support for the torture, unjust bombing and illegal wars we are now conducting is THE CHURCH. Mindless and voiceless support for the government is tantamount to support for wickedness in high places.

Any country that finds itself at war over 5,000 miles away from its shores must have been looking for a fight.
- Will Rogers

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when they deserve it."
- Mark Twain

Justice does not help those who slumber but helps only those who are vigilant.
- Mahatma Ghandi

Peace will not come out of a clash of arms but out of justice lived and done by unarmed nations in the face of odds.
- Mahatma Ghandi

The wars of the united States today are neither just, nor moral, nor legal.
Because America has turned away from God, He will no longer hear our prayers.
Divine judgment is upon us.

It does not take the form of hurricanes, tornadoes, floods or fire.
God has allowed us to become what we want.

Our leaders drink the brew of foolishness rather than wisdom.
Our country is drinking the vintage of endless war because we have turned away from peace and justice and we are suffering from Godless humanism because we have collectively denied our duty to God, our country and our communities.

My prayer is not for wisdom for our leaders, fifty years of such prayers have not been heard or answered.
Instead I pray for all those called by the name of Christ, that God would have mercy upon them and deliver them from this present age of wickedness.

 

[Episkopos]

Two things I disagree with in your statement:

1.) That prayer is the total extent of involvement in the things of this world.

What about paying taxes, honorable loyalty to the government, military service when necessary and political responsibility?
Too many Christians and too many Americans in general believe that their only duty is to vote for their representatives and after that ignore what they do.
Do you grow a garden or farmer's field that way? Certainly not.
Planting a seed is only one step in a process of producing good fruit.
If you ignore the garden or field, then the insects and the weeds will take over and you'll have little or no profit for your effort.
Prayer is like that. It's a seed of faith and hope. Once done the citizen must get off their knees and pay attention to what their seed is becoming.

Someone once wrote that idle hands are the devil's workshop. Prayers are empty when physical action is called for afterwards.
We have been given hands to pray and to work, knees to submit to God and to walk in His world.

2.) There are a number of scriptures in the Bible which can be used to justify support for the temporal government.
There are also a number of passage in the N.T. which indicate that the Roman Empire was not as oppressive, unjust and corrupt as modern states.
For example:
"For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:"
Rom 13:3

As I've stated earlier, St. Paul was never persecuted for wearing Jewish skin, yet that happens frequently in the world today - even in America. What would the apostle say if he knew the present world condition?
In the thirteenth chapter of his epistle to the Romans, Paul wrote:
"Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience' sake."

Did you see the last part, "for conscience' sake"? What does that mean? I can tell you with certainty that it does NOT mean that a Christian citizen casts his vote and then ignores the process that follows.
For conscience sake, the Christian MUST continue to take an active role in the process.

The Bible goes much further in Christian duty than passive support of government. In Ephesians it says, "For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." Notice it says that we are to WRESTLE AGAINST wickedness. This passage is often used in regards to spiritual warfare, but in the case of politics prayer leads to action.

It is the Christian duty to education himself about the issues of the day and to respond to them in terms of physical political action. At the very least one MUST contact one's representatives vehemently and frequently in the form of letters and email. There are numerous lobby groups which are actively influencing legislation. If Christians do not speak, then those special interest groups are the only voices that will be heard.

Today the united States is consumed with unreasonable militarism. It has infected our society at every level and the principle support for the torture, unjust bombing and illegal wars we are now conducting is THE CHURCH. Mindless and voiceless support for the government is tantamount to support for wickedness in high places.

Any country that finds itself at war over 5,000 miles away from its shores must have been looking for a fight.
- Will Rogers

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when they deserve it."
- Mark Twain

Justice does not help those who slumber but helps only those who are vigilant.
- Mahatma Ghandi

Peace will not come out of a clash of arms but out of justice lived and done by unarmed nations in the face of odds.
- Mahatma Ghandi

The wars of the united States today are neither just, nor moral, nor legal.
Because America has turned away from God, He will no longer hear our prayers.
Divine judgment is upon us.

It does not take the form of hurricanes, tornadoes, floods or fire.
God has allowed us to become what we want.

Our leaders drink the brew of foolishness rather than wisdom.
Our country is drinking the vintage of endless war because we have turned away from peace and justice and we are suffering from Godless humanism because we have collectively denied our duty to God, our country and our communities.

My prayer is not for wisdom for our leaders, fifty years of such prayers have not been heard or answered.
Instead I pray for all those called by the name of Christ, that God would have mercy upon them and deliver them from this present age of wickedness.

Ironically you quoted Gandhi who was anything but a violent sort of person! ;)

We are to give to all who ask....that would include taxes. It is just money after all. But we are not here to kill people rather to save them. Military service? Only if we can bring life....not death.

There is a trade in the army called a chaplain. Do these kill the "enemy". If a minister is not required to kill for country, then why should a disciple of Christ be so required? Better to rot in jail!, no?

And who is the enemy...other people who disagree with us? Who decides this? God?

The warfare of a Christian disciple is NOT according to flesh and blood but is in the heavenlies.....it is spiritual. The greatest enemy in this world...is our own selves. Once THAT enemy is overcome, we are to lay down our lives for others...not take their lives. We are to follow our Master Jesus Christ.

I think too often people are confusing Jesus Christ with Genghis Khan!

Of what spirit are we really if we have no principles beyond the ordinary citizen of any country?

How are we any different from others in the world?

We are to love others...even our enemies. THEN we will be truly following our Master's example.

 

[Foreigner]

Please answer the question.......

I know what I said and what I meant when I wrote about American exceptionalist nationalism.

What did YOU mean.

-- Having said nothing like what you said, I have nothing to explain as far as what I meant.

If you want an opinion on something I ACTUALLY SAID, please quote me specifically and ask.

 

[[email protected]]

Ironically you quoted Gandhi who was anything but a violent sort of person! ;)

We are to give to all who ask....that would include taxes. It is just money after all. But we are not here to kill people rather to save them. Military service? Only if we can bring life....not death.

There is a trade in the army called a chaplain. Do these kill the "enemy". If a minister is not required to kill for country, then why should a disciple of Christ be so required? Better to rot in jail!, no?

And who is the enemy...other people who disagree with us? Who decides this? God?

The warfare of a Christian disciple is NOT according to flesh and blood but is in the heavenlies.....it is spiritual. The greatest enemy in this world...is our own selves. Once THAT enemy is overcome, we are to lay down our lives for others...not take their lives. We are to follow our Master Jesus Christ.

I think too often people are confusing Jesus Christ with Genghis Khan!

Of what spirit are we really if we have no principles beyond the ordinary citizen of any country?

How are we any different from others in the world?

We are to love others...even our enemies. THEN we will be truly following our Master's example.

You have deftly avoided the issue. What is one's DUTY to one's family, community and country not to mention the fellowship of faith?

Sometimes answers here are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good. There is a physical component to life which is realistic. Sooner or later one has to draw the line.

Case in point is that you wrote "we are to give to all who ask". I know you don't mean that at all. Why did you write it? If you are really serious about that let's see if you meant it or if you're just hedging your argument with empty words.

Write me a check for five thousand dollars.

NOW.

I'm asking. You're telling. You did say that we are to give to all who ask did you not?
Do you mean what you say or are you just pontificating?

Let's get serious about the subject for a minute. Endless philosophy and tennis matching word for word gets nowhere fast.

There is such a thing as responsibility and duty IN THIS WORLD. We MUST live by that. Spiritual things are for the spiritual (and most people have no idea what that means either), and worldly things are for the world. At what point then, does one draw the line?

I'll tell you.

You pray about a thing and then you get up off your knees and get to work. The work part is generally harder than the pray part, BUT IT MUST BE DONE.

That means political responsibility as well as family responsibility. It means that consequences result from behavior, bad or good.

Divine judgment and holy duty are one and the same. We have a duty to God and a responsibility to our community and nation and that means more than mumbled words from time to time.

It means work.

PS
Send me a private email and I'll tell you where to send the check.

Unless of course you've seen the light - five grand worth anyway.

-- Having said nothing like what you said, I have nothing to explain as far as what I meant.

If you want an opinion on something I ACTUALLY SAID, please quote me specifically and ask.

I think you have nothing to contribute except empty argument and personal insult.

How about answering the question? All I want is a definition of your terms.

How many times do I have to ask?

Once again, what do YOU mean by the use of the term American exculsionism -or- what do you think it means?

 

[Episkopos]

You have deftly avoided the issue. What is one's DUTY to one's family, community and country not to mention the fellowship of faith?

Sometimes answers here are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good. There is a physical component to life which is realistic. Sooner or later one has to draw the line.

Case in point is that you wrote "we are to give to all who ask". I know you don't mean that at all. Why did you write it? If you are really serious about that let's see if you meant it or if you're just hedging your argument with empty words.

Write me a check for five thousand dollars.

NOW.

I'm asking. You're telling. You did say that we are to give to all who ask did you not?
Do you mean what you say or are you just pontificating?

Let's get serious about the subject for a minute. Endless philosophy and tennis matching word for word gets nowhere fast.

There is such a thing as responsibility and duty IN THIS WORLD. We MUST live by that. Spiritual things are for the spiritual (and most people have no idea what that means either), and worldly things are for the world. At what point then, does one draw the line?

I'll tell you.

You pray about a thing and then you get up off your knees and get to work. The work part is generally harder than the pray part, BUT IT MUST BE DONE.

That means political responsibility as well as family responsibility. It means that consequences result from behavior, bad or good.

Divine judgment and holy duty are one and the same. We have a duty to God and a responsibility to our community and nation and that means more than mumbled words from time to time.

It means work.

PS
Send me a private email and I'll tell you where to send the check.

Unless of course you've seen the light - five grand worth anyway.



I think you have nothing to contribute except empty argument and personal insult.

How about answering the question? All I want is a definition of your terms.

How many times do I have to ask?

Once again, what do YOU mean by the use of the term American exculsionism -or- what do you think it means?

What about duty to the One who redeemed us?

If we behave like any other man...what does that say about our lives?

Let the world look after the world. The world is not concerned with the things of the kingdom...and those of us who are cannot get entangled in temporal things to any degree!

PS Please send me a PM concerning your monetary situation.

 

[Foreigner]

I think you have nothing to contribute except empty argument and personal insult.

How about answering the question? All I want is a definition of your terms.

How many times do I have to ask?

Once again, what do YOU mean by the use of the term American exculsionism -or- what do you think it means?

-- You really ARE in need of help, aren't you.

You make this statement: "In all our dialogue, you continue to support the country - never a righteous attitude. I wonder why."

And then you ask me what I mean by YOUR statement.

I have pointed out to your twice that in YOUR statement but you continue to ask what I meant by it.

I hope that you get help soon rjp. Sincerely.

 

[[email protected]]

What about duty to the One who redeemed us?

If we behave like any other man...what does that say about our lives?

Let the world look after the world. The world is not concerned with the things of the kingdom...and those of us who are cannot get entangled in temporal things to any degree!

PS Please send me a PM concerning your monetary situation.

"What about duty to the One who redeemed us?" That's a quote from your post. So, what about it? Duty to Christ, I mean.

In America that particular duty has been diluted by our particular brand of militaristic nationalism. All is colored by the red, white and blue - including the cross and one's duty to one's self, one's family, one's nation and to the world in general - not to mention Our Lord Jesus Christ.

"In the United States many churches display the American flag. The Christian flag is usually put on one side and the American flag on the other. Does having two flags in your church mean that Christianity and the American establishment are equal? If it does, you are really in trouble."
- Francis Schaeffer

Let me educate you on the effect of nationalism upon American culture and how it affects our faith. Flag etiquette states that the American flag must be displayed to its own right. Every other flag and icon is assumed to be of lesser worth and value and is therefore displayed to the US flag's left. That means if you are in a line, the American flag is on the right and your state flag, your groups flag, etc. is to the left of it in line. If you are in church looking forward, the 'proper' display of the American flag will appear to be on the left (it's own right) with all lesser flags and icons to the right of it INCLUDING THE CROSS OF CHRIST AND THE ALTAR/TABLE OF WORSHIP. This means that even in the sanctuary of God's house of prayer the American flag is superior in value to the cross of Christ. Our allegiance, therefore, is to the flag - NOT CHRIST.

Do symbols mean anything? You bet they do. Every single symbol has meaning, right from the lines on the roads we drive to the political and religious dividing lines in church. It's part of the culture, you see. What symbols are important to us and how do we assign them priority?

Self-styled 'patriots' do not want to hear news that American culture is on the rocks. They are only interested in raising the banner of the state over all - including that of devotion to God. That we are at fault for turning our backs upon God and our fellow man, that we are in the midst of divine judgment and that our culture is on the verge of collapse is not important or is a bogus assertion to them. The truth is that every single expert on the subject of cultural collapse is writing and speaking and warning of imminent collapse. Faux patriots deny the warnings. The real question is what will happen when the fertilizer hits the ventilator? When, not if.

I love my country, but I hate my government. We have prayed for wisdom to be granted to our leaders. It has been given, but they've used it to betray us. We pray for peace (at least we used to), but glorify war. We take our innocent boys and girls, put them in uniform and teach them to be killers. We reward them with praise for killing in foreign lands, but when it happens at home we are hypocritically shocked! And then we ask God why we are being forced to drink the cup of bloody hell we have poured out upon the world at large.

What about our duty to the one who redeemed us? It seems to me we are ignoring it. The second commandment is to love our neighbors, but we hate them - we really do and we've armed ourselves against them. Every Christian I know has a gun. Do unto others is an axiom for liberty, yet we DO OTHERS and try to hide from the consequences.

If a Christian really has a sense of duty to the one who redeemed him, then he needs to raise serious objections to the way our culture and our government is corrupting the principles which God has presented to us in His Word. Duty is not religious only - sooner or later politics is involved.

Unfortunately the American culture is rotten beyond redemption and WILL FALL. Our duty therefore is to be a light in the dark times that will come. That means duty to our neighbors - not just piety. Piety alone buys you nothing. Read the book of James.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...