The old image of redemption and the new.

justbyfaith · Apr 30, 2021

Let me warn you in advance....this post may be a little graphic.

The Lord gave me a dream last night. There was an image of my redeemed soul on my toilet, like a reflection on the water, that had been placed there the last time I had gone to the bathroom. When I peed on it, it dissolved.

I believe that the Lord spoke to me concerning this, and said that when I had my experience of being redeemed in 1989, that it created an image of my redeemed self, when I defecated (going #1 in my toilet) on who I was before my redemption, accepting the reality of Jeremiah 17:9.

And I believe that He is saying that by defecating (going #1) on the image of who I became back then, that that image will be dissolved and a new image will be able to form.

I am to consider that who I am in the flesh is that I am "the chief of sinners" and that my "heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

In taking on this attitude that who I am in the flesh is sinful, God tells me that He considers that I have "an honest and good heart" (Luke 8:15). He will create me in a new image of redemption as I "defecate" on my old image of redemption...saying that it is a Jeremiah 17:9 heart.

As I continue to take on the attitude that I have a Jeremiah 17:9 heart, God will respond with justification in my life; saying that my heart is a Luke 8:15 heart.

How I perceive myself will always be different than how God sees me.

If I think of myself as good, the Lord will think of me as evil.

But if I think of myself as evil, the Lord will be able to change my behaviour as I rely on the Holy Spirit to live His life in me and through me; and thus the life that is lived out in my flesh will be one of bearing the fruit of goodness (Galatians 2:20, Galatians 5:22-23).

In seeing myself as evil, I will be less inclined to live my own life and will be more inclined to allow Christ to live His life in me and through me.

Thus a new image of redemption will be formed as who I was before dissolves because I disrespect the old image by counting it as a Jeremiah 17:9 heart.

BloodBought 1953 · Apr 30, 2021

justbyfaith said:
Let me warn you in advance....this post may be a little graphic.

The Lord gave me a dream last night. There was an image of my redeemed soul on my toilet, like a reflection on the water, that had been placed there the last time I had gone to the bathroom. When I peed on it, it dissolved.

I believe that the Lord spoke to me concerning this, and said that when I had my experience of being redeemed in 1989, that it created an image of my redeemed self, when I defecated (going #1 in my toilet) on who I was before my redemption, accepting the reality of Jeremiah 17:9.

And I believe that He is saying that by defecating (going #1) on the image of who I became back then, that that image will be dissolved and a new image will be able to form.

I am to consider that who I am in the flesh is that I am "the chief of sinners" and that my "heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

In taking on this attitude that who I am in the flesh is sinful, God tells me that He considers that I have "an honest and good heart" (Luke 8:15). He will create me in a new image of redemption as I "defecate" on my old image of redemption...saying that it is a Jeremiah 17:9 heart.

As I continue to take on the attitude that I have a Jeremiah 17:9 heart, God will respond with justification in my life; saying that my heart is a Luke 8:15 heart.

How I perceive myself will always be different than how God sees me.

If I think of myself as good, the Lord will think of me as evil.

But if I think of myself as evil, the Lord will be able to change my behaviour as I rely on the Holy Spirit to live His life in me and through me; and thus the life that is lived out in my flesh will be one of bearing the fruit of goodness (Galatians 2:20, Galatians 5:22-23).

In seeing myself as evil, I will be less inclined to live my own life and will be more inclined to allow Christ to live His life in me and through me.

Thus a new image of redemption will be formed as who I was before dissolves because I disrespect the old image by counting it as a Jeremiah 17:9 heart.

Watching a Man’s descent into madness is not a pretty thing to see,...is this what awaits those that preach a False ” Gospel” Of Lucky Repentance for Salvation.....

Toilets and Defecation are so fitting for your “ visions” and you don’t even see it....Your Spiritual “ Dreams and Visions” are a load of Crap.....The Irony taking place is almost unbelievable .....

You are a sick man....please get help....you are in my prayers...

justbyfaith · May 1, 2021

Where do you suggest I get help? I have already given my heart to Christ.

If He hasn't helped me, and if He can't help me, then there is absolutely no hope for anyone.

The reality is that there is a very real spiritual application to my "dreams and visions"...

I believe that my dream happened merely because my body was needing to release urine while I was in the middle of my REM cycle and my brain interpreted that as me going to the bathroom in real life in the midst of my dream cycle. The Holy Spirit used that dream to show me something that is a scriptural truth; and which I have already known to be a scriptural truth.

But apparently you reject the truth that is related because you are the natural man who cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:14)...not even when they are related in carnal terminology.

The reality is that "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

If you can focus on that scripture instead of the way that it was related to you, through the interpretation of a dream, maybe you will even be able to receive some spiritual insight into a scriptural reality that you seem to be unaware of....

That you are a sinner.

It may be that the dream was given to remind me of that scriptural reality (that I am a sinner) in such a way that I might be able to receive it again as a truth that applies to me.

And, the dream in question may also speak to someone who reads about it, in the same way that it spoke to me.

But as for you, you are a judgmental person who always has three fingers pointing back at you (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42) any time that you judge...

God can speak through Balaam's donkey...so you might even be wise to understand that He can even speak through someone like me...who preaches the law as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ and is determined by false teachers to be a spreader of "leaven"...because I preach the law as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ.

BloodBought 1953 · May 2, 2021

justbyfaith said:
God can speak through Balaam's donkey...so you might even be wise to understand that He can even speak through someone like me...who preaches the law as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ and is determined by false teachers to be a spreader of "leaven"...because I preach the law as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ.

A Flat - Out Lie.....and he knows better....anybody that has followed our debates knows that I am in TOTAL AGREEMENT with this! I have said it many times....The purpose Of the Law is to show you that you can’t keep it....it was given to “ close your mouth”...... to show you that you are a Sinner who MUST have a Savior....

The Law takes you by the hand and delivers you to the Savior.....It is INDISPUTABLE that the Law is a “ Schoolmaster”——- once again.....JBF KNOWS that I am in agreement with him on this matter....The Bible could not “ make” it any clearer......

JBF ALSO KNOWS why I accuse him of being a “ spreader Of Leaven” .....He Teachers a False , Perverted “Gospel” that maintains that 1Cor 15:1-4 does not Save by simply Believing it and Resting in it....In His Perverted World, the Gospel “might” be Essential—— it just ain’t Adequate on its own to Save Anybody......

His False Gospel says ......” Yeah sure , Jesus Saves.... B U T .....once ya know “ that” you must REPENT of all of your Sins before you die or you will go to Hell”......
It’s a clear ADDITION to the True Gospel Of 1 Cor15:1-4 and Paul’s says that if one Adds to His Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing they will “ Fall From Grace”..... that could mean anything from a “ crippled” Christian Walk to the Damnation If you Soul—- intelligent Bible Teachers disagree.....

There is “ NO” disagreement on the following: If you go farther than just “Believe” a False, Perverted so- called Gospel , and go on to actually TEACH it—— You are “ Accursed” —- Damned by God Forever

It’s Simple: Don't Gamble with your Salvation—- REST in the Gospel....

justbyfaith · May 7, 2021

There are many biblical passages that teach us that we must repent in order to be saved.

I would suggest reading Ezekiel 33:11-20 and really digging into what it means for your life...really meditating on its contents.

The question that I would also have is, once a person comes to Christ, does he continue to walk in the same old way that he used to walk?

I think that such passages as 1 John 3:5-9 tell us what the answer to that is.

The passage in question goes as far as to say that the person who is born again is no longer a sinner...in the sense of someone who commits sin...while not in the sense of someone who has indwelling sin.

Someone can have indwelling sin and yet not be a committer of sins. For the element of sin, dwelling within us, can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it doesn't any longer have any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

Jesus said, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:31-32)

Free from what?

Jesus clarifies in John 8:34...

"He who sins is the servant of sin."

If you are a sinner in the sense that you are slave to sin, then you have yet to be sanctified.

People go down two venues of discussion when determining whether someone who isn't sanctified will go to heaven. Many believe that sanctification isn't necessary...a few believe that one must be wholly sanctified at the point of death in order to go to heaven.

I think that the many ought to consider the testimony of Matthew 7:13-14 concerning this.

One thing I do know...we have an identity in Christ that is unshakable, that we are righteous...and this identity is my identity even if I blow it (Romans 4:5).

The exhortation is, now that you have this new identity, go and live like it is your identity.

If you are righteous, live like a righteous person (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

justbyfaith · May 7, 2021

The law is a schoolmaster...

The question is...what does it teach us?

If it teaches us that we cannot be holy and that we are to just give up on being holy...

Then I don't see how that in any way glorifies the Lord or accomplishes His purposes in the life of the believer.

Is it not the Lord's purpose for the law that we have charity out of a pure heart and of a good conscience and of faith unfeigned (1 Timothy 1:5)?

The law does indeed show us that we cannot be holy...however, this applies to the unbeliever who is devoid of the Holy Spirit.

The law shows you that you cannot live up to God's righteous standard...and yet God's righteous standard remains there to tell you that you come short of the glory of the Lord...

And if you are in the right frame of mind, you are discontented with such a state of being (Romans 7:24). It irks you that you cannot measure up to God's standard of righteousness.

Romans 7:14-25 is there to show you that you are in a state of being that is unacceptable to the Lord....that you are bound by the law of sin and death.

In Romans 8:2, it becomes clear that the law of the Spirit of life is able to set you free from the law of sin and death.

It is when you surrender your life to Christ, and place your faith in Him, that you will find that the love of the Lord is shed abroad in your heart (Romans 5:5)...and that you therefore have the power to live a life that is pleasing to God (see, for example, Acts of the Apostles 1:8)...because now you are motivated by the love of the Lord instead of your old, carnal nature.

It is God who works in you both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

However, you must be born again (John 3:3, 1 John 3:9).

The law is given to show clearly who is born again, and who is not (see also 1 John 3:4).

Those who are born again are motivated by the love of God...and therefore the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in them (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

If you are not a law-abiding citizen of the kingdom of heaven, you ought to question as to whether you are truly born again (Philippians 2:12, 2 Peter 1:10, 2 Corinthians 13:5).

Because if you have the Holy Spirit, and bear the fruit of the Spirit...then there is no law that will condemn any of your behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23)...you will be a law-abiding citizen of the kingdom.

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

justbyfaith said:
The law is a schoolmaster...

The question is...what does it teach us?

If it teaches us that we cannot be holy and that we are to just give up on being holy...

Then I don't see how that in any way glorifies the Lord or accomplishes His purposes in the life of the believer.

Is it not the Lord's purpose for the law that we have charity out of a pure heart and of a good conscience and of faith unfeigned (1 Timothy 1:5)?

The law does indeed show us that we cannot be holy...however, this applies to the unbeliever who is devoid of the Holy Spirit.

The law shows you that you cannot live up to God's righteous standard...and yet God's righteous standard remains there to tell you that you come short of the glory of the Lord...

And if you are in the right frame of mind, you are discontented with such a state of being (Romans 7:24). It irks you that you cannot measure up to God's standard of righteousness.

Romans 7:14-25 is there to show you that you are in a state of being that is unacceptable to the Lord....that you are bound by the law of sin and death.

In Romans 8:2, it becomes clear that the law of the Spirit of life is able to set you free from the law of sin and death.

It is when you surrender your life to Christ, and place your faith in Him, that you will find that the love of the Lord is shed abroad in your heart (Romans 5:5)...and that you therefore have the power to live a life that is pleasing to God (see, for example, Acts of the Apostles 1:8)...because now you are motivated by the love of the Lord instead of your old, carnal nature.

It is God who works in you both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

However, you must be born again (John 3:3, 1 John 3:9).

The law is given to show clearly who is born again, and who is not (see also 1 John 3:4).

Those who are born again are motivated by the love of God...and therefore the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in them (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

If you are not a law-abiding citizen of the kingdom of heaven, you ought to question as to whether you are truly born again (Philippians 2:12, 2 Peter 1:10, 2 Corinthians 13:5).

Because if you have the Holy Spirit, and bear the fruit of the Spirit...then there is no law that will condemn any of your behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23)...you will be a law-abiding citizen of the kingdom.

You do hold that Christians are "not under Law" Romans 6:14 don't you? Am I understanding you correctly?

justbyfaith · May 7, 2021

GracePeace said:
You do hold that Christians are "not under Law" Romans 6:14 don't you? Am I understanding you correctly?

Christians are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6), as concerning condemnation.

However, as concerning obedience, Christians are under the law towards Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21).

The law is written on the heart and mind of the New Covenant believer (Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5); and he is not disobedient to it.

The venue by which he obtains this righteousness is not through attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts; but by faith, the believer receives the Spirit (Galatians 3:14) and thus he bears the fruit of the Spirit against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23).

It is a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21) that it is righteousness indeed.

The believer can also look into the perfect law of liberty and if he abides in it, he will be blessed in his doings (James 1:25).

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

justbyfaith said:
Christians are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6), as concerning condemnation.

Nope, they're "not under Law" with respect to "service to God".

justbyfaith · May 7, 2021

GracePeace said:
Nope, they're "not under Law" with respect to "service to God".

I disagree with you.

See my biblical reasons for believing what I do in post #8 (The old image of redemption and the new.).

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

justbyfaith said:
I disagree with you.

See my biblical reasons for believing what I do in post #8 (The old image of redemption and the new.).

So, you disagree with Paul who says Christians are "not under Law"?

I think you are misunderstanding what "under" means or what "Law" means, but you're misunderstanding something.

If you say "not under Law" means "not condemned by the Law", then what does "under Grace" mean? Condemned by Grace? LOL!

quietthinker · May 7, 2021

All who argue they are justified in deliberately breaking God's Commandments do not speak with the Spirit of God but rather a Spirit which masquerades as that of God.

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

justbyfaith said:
Christians are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6), as concerning condemnation.

So, you disagree with Paul who says Christians are "not under Law"?

I think you are misunderstanding what "under" means or what "Law" means, but you're misunderstanding something.

If you say "not under Law" means "not condemned by the Law", then what does "under Grace" mean? Condemned by Grace? LOL!

justbyfaith said:
However, as concerning obedience, Christians are under the law towards Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21).

"The Law of Messiah" is obviously not "the Law of Moses" : Christ repudiates the Torah in Matthew 5 and in Matthew 19--see my post here.

justbyfaith said:
The law is written on the heart and mind of the New Covenant believer (Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5); and he is not disobedient to it.

Yes, and? None of this contradicts the statement that we're "not under Law".

justbyfaith said:
The venue by which he obtains this righteousness is not through attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts; but by faith, the believer receives the Spirit (Galatians 3:14) and thus he bears the fruit of the Spirit against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23).

Explain how this is relevant as a response to what I'm asserting--ie, "we're not under Law but under Grace".

justbyfaith said:
It is a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21) that it is righteousness indeed.

The righteousness of God attested to by the Law and Prophets refers to being forgiven.

justbyfaith said:
The believer can also look into the perfect law of liberty and if he abides in it, he will be blessed in his doings (James 1:25).

The Law of Liberty is what is written in the believers' hearts, not the Torah.

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

quietthinker said:
All who argue they are justified in deliberately breaking God's Commandments do not speak with the Spirit of God but rather a Spirit which masquerades as that of God.

Jesus Himself denounced the Torah, because its standards weren't high enough.

Matthew 5:33-48
33“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.g
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,h let him have your cloak as well. 41And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
43“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers,i what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 19:3-9
3And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” 4He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” 7They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” 8He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”a

The rabbis agreed that some commandments were given only as concessions to the wickedness in mens' hearts--eg, Rashi on Deuteronomy 21:11 says "Scripture is speaking (makes this concession) only in view of man’s evil inclination (his carnal desires) (Kiddushin 21b). For if the Holy One, blessed be He, would not permit her to him as a wife, he would nevertheless marry her although she would then be forbidden to him."

Another less-than-stellar law : "you can beat your slave to death as long as he doesn't die the same day."

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

quietthinker said:
All who argue they are justified in deliberately breaking God's Commandments do not speak with the Spirit of God but rather a Spirit which masquerades as that of God.

In the context of this conversation, what you've said here sounds like a false dichotomy : we are BOTH "not under Law" AND "fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law" BECAUSE we are "under Grace [God writes His Laws on our hearts]".

quietthinker · May 7, 2021

GracePeace said:
So, you disagree with Paul who says Christians are "not under Law"?

I think you are misunderstanding what "under" means or what "Law" means, but you're misunderstanding something.

If you say "not under Law" means "not condemned by the Law", then what does "under Grace" mean? Condemned by Grace? LOL!

"The Law of Messiah" is obviously not "the Law of Moses" since Christ repudiates the Torah in Matthew 5 and in Matthew 19.

Yes, and? None of this contradicts the statement that we're "not under Law".

Explain how this is relevant as a response to what I'm asserting--ie, "we're not under Law but under Grace".

The righteousness of God attested to by the Law and Prophets refers to being forgiven.

The Law of Liberty is what is written in the believers' hearts, not the Torah.

Have you wondered why there is so much lawlessness in your country? Could it be many citizens have taken the repeated message by 'christians' that the law has been done away with seriously and feel no obligation for restraint. And why not; if God's Laws no longer apply why should the lesser ie, mans laws be respected?

The Law of Liberty also called the Royal Law says 'do not murder' ....I wonder where it says that?....and is the Law of Liberty written on your heart any different to the Law written on stone?

Ahhhh yes, the wily one who opposes God and his Law confounds the minds of men so that they justify lawlessness even while reaping its
results and even while trumpeting their own conflicting views.

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

quietthinker said:
Have you wondered why there is so much lawlessness in your country? Could it be many citizens have taken the repeated message by 'christians' that the law has been done away with seriously and feel no obligation for restraint. And why not; if God's Laws no longer apply why should the lesser ie, mans laws be respected?

The Law of Liberty also called the Royal Law says 'do not murder' ....I wonder where it says that?....and is the Law of Liberty written on your heart any different to the Law written on stone?

Ahhhh yes, the wily one who opposes God and his Law confounds the minds of men so that they justify lawlessness even while reaping its
results and even while trumpeting their own conflicting views.

1. You don't understand what "not under Law" means. If people don't live righteously they cannot claim to be "under Grace". Paul was "dead to Law" and taught believers the same Romans 7:1-6. Your argument is with him, not me. If you want to enliven yourself to the Law you will die to God. Simple as that.

2. I haven't looked deeply into how Christianity should affect government, myself, so I can't comment.

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

justbyfaith said:
However, as concerning obedience, Christians are under the law towards Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21).

GracePeace said:
So, you disagree with Paul who says Christians are "not under Law"?
"The Law of Messiah" is obviously not "the Law of Moses" : Christ repudiates the Torah in Matthew 5 and in Matthew 19--see my post here.

Also, impossible to ignore, Paul is BOTH "not under Law" AND "within Messiah's Law" 1 Corinthians 9:20-21, so, no, the Law of Messiah cannot be the Law of Moses.

quietthinker · May 7, 2021

GracePeace said:
1. You don't understand what "not under Law" means.

Oh I understand what it means alright...and what's more, I understand why it is laboured by many 'christians' They want the liberty to be lawless, ie to be able to act with impunity while at the same time redefining it to that end.

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

quietthinker said:
Oh I understand what it means alright...and what's more, I understand why it is laboured by many 'christians' They want the liberty to be lawless, ie to be able to act with impunity while at the same time redefining it to that end.

So, Paul was "lawless"?

The old image of redemption and the new.

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