The Timing Of The Seventh Trumpet

Vincent · Jan 17, 2011

[font="Arial]The seventh trumpet is one of the most significant and certainly the easiest to understand of all the trumpets. It introduces some of the final events of our time. Such as the establishment of God’s kingdom, the outpouring of God’s wrath and the final judgment.

But let's begin with the most controversial of all Christian beliefs, the rapture. I don’t like to use that word “rapture” because I think it is misleading, so I will refer to this event as our final resurrection or transformation. Whatever you like to call this event it is the event described by Paul in [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%204:16-17&version=NIV"]1 Thess 4:17[/url] and it takes place just before the seventh trumpet sounds.

Revelation 10:6-7 "There will be no more delay! But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished".

Just before the seventh trumpet sounds, the mystery will be accomplished. The mystery of God is the final resurrection and transformation of the righteous into eternal life.

1 Corinthians 2:7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

Now, let’s try to establish when, in relation to other events, is the seventh trumpet blown.

When the seventh trumpet blows, Revelation tells us three things.

1. The kingdom of God begins and he will reign forever and ever.
2. God’s wrath has come.
3. Time for the judging of the dead (death is thrown into the lake of fire).

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[/font][/color]So we see that God’s everlasting kingdom begins when the seventh trumpet blows, which means that for this to happen [u]before[/u] the millennium, the millennium must be (a part of) God’s [u]everlasting kingdom[/u]. But can God’s everlasting kingdom begin when we know that Satan will be released again in a thousand years? How is that possible? How is it possible for Satan to be released into God’s perfect kingdom? And since we know that God’s kingdom is to last “[u]forever and ever[/u]” we can not put a thousand year limit on it. In other words, it’s impossible to reconcile God’s kingdom beginning [u]before[/u] Satan is released from his prison to deceive the nations. Using simple logic we can see that the millennium is not God’s kingdom and God’s kingdom must begin [u]after[/u] Satan is done away with, after the millennium.

But if that’s not enough, we also know that the judging of the dead (which begins at the 7th trumpet) happens after Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. And, at the time of judging, “[i]death and Hades[/i]” are thrown into the lake of fire, so [u]there is no more death after the time of judging which begins when the seventh trumpet blows[/u]. How then can this trumpet blow before the millennium? We know that Satan will bring the armies of the earth against Jerusalem after the millennium, but if there is no more death, then what’s the point? If you can’t kill anyone, why have an army? [color="#ff0000"]This proves that when Satan is released from his prison, after the millennium, death has not yet been thrown into the lake of fire. Which means that the seventh trumpet can not have blown before the millennium.

Now let’s see how the harvest and wrath fit into all of this.

Revelation 14:14-19. This passage describes the “harvest of the earth” and the “grapes of wrath”. The harvest of the earth is the second resurrection. This happens just before the seventh trumpet is blown. Then the harvest of the grapes happens just after the seventh trumpet is blown. We know this because the description of the grapes being trampled is a description of the pouring out of God's seven bowls of wrath. The seven bowls are God's wrath. Not the seals or the trumpets, only the bowls. So the seventh trumpet blows just after our resurrection/transformation and before wrath.

Now notice the similarities between the grapes of wrath and what happens to Satan after the millennium.

The Grapes of Wrath

Notice when the grapes of wrath are gathered, they are "trampled in the winepress outside the city" (Revelation 14:20). When the beast and his armies are defeated by Jesus (after Satan had been released from his prison) they had "surrounded the city". In this description in Revelation 20:7-10, it is explained that fire comes down from heaven and devours them. This fire is the sharp sickle that harvests the grapes of wrath.

Notice also in the description of the grapes being trampled in the winepress that it relates the depth of the blood to "horses bridles". The horses are representative of an army. Clearly when the grapes are trampled outside the city it is an army surrounding the city. Just as depicted in Revelation 20:7-10.

So the description of the grapes being trampled in the winepress of God’s wrath is the same event described in Revelation 20, which we know happens after the millennium.

The Battle of Armageddon is similarly depicted several different ways in Revelation.

The Battle of Armageddon

The first reference to the battle of Armageddon is in Revelation 16:12-16

[sup]12[/sup] Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. [sup]13[/sup] And I saw three evil[sup][a][/sup] spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. [sup]14[/sup] They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

[sup]15[/sup] “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

[sup]16[/sup] And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew nameArmageddon.[sup][b][/sup]

“Armageddon” is the Hebrew word for “Megiddo” which is a place about 100 km north of Jerusalem. This is where they gather to prepare for battle. Notice that this description is part of the sixth bowl, which is after the harvest of the earth.

The second reference to this battle is in Revelation 19:19. Here the word Armageddon is not used but the description is the same.

Revelation 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.

The third reference to this battle is in Revelation 20:7-10. This description is clear that the battle happens after the thousand years are over.

Revelation 20:7-10 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison [sup]8[/sup] and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. [sup]9[/sup]They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. [sup]10[/sup] And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

In all three references, Satan gathers all the armies of the earth and marches against Jerusalem. Clearly they are all describing the same event. Which is further evidence that the trumpets and bowls all take place after the millennium.

And most importantly, when the seventh bowl is poured out, God says “it is done!”. It can not be done if Satan still has some cards to play. It can only be done when it is all done. That is irrefutable.

So to summarize, the seventh trumpet signals the start of wrath, the start of judging and the start of God's everlasting kingdom. Judging brings with it the end of death. This is strong evidence that the seventh trumpet is not blown before the millennium, because there will still be death during and after the millennium. Also, God's everlasting kingdom can not begin until after Satan is done away with for good, which means God's kingdom can not begin until after the millennium which means the seventh trumpet can not be blown until after the millennium.

The other stuff about the harvest of the earth, the grapes of wrath and the battle of Armageddon all support this timeline, as explained above.

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242006 · Jan 17, 2011

Vincent said:
[font="Arial]The seventh trumpet is one of the most significant and certainly the easiest to understand of all the trumpets. It introduces some of the final events of our time. Such as the establishment of God’s kingdom, the outpouring of God’s wrath and the final judgment.[/quote]

[color="#5d5d5d"][font="Arial][/font][/color][color="#000000"]You already made two mistakes. Final judgment comes after the Lord's Day -- not the seventh trumpet. God's kingdom comes thereafter the final judgment.

But let's begin with the most controversial of all Christian beliefs, the rapture. I don’t like to use that word “rapture” because I think it is misleading, so I will refer to this event as our final resurrection or transformation. Whatever you like to call this event it is the event described by Paul in 1 Thess 4:17 and it takes place just before the seventh trumpet sounds.

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That simply is not true!! See 1 Thes. 4:16 -

1Th 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The seventh trumpet is sounded with Christ's return, which ends this flesh dispensation of time and ushers in the Lord's day [1000 years of Rev. 20].

Revelation 10:6-7 "There will be no more delay! But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished".

Just before the seventh trumpet sounds, the mystery will be accomplished. The mystery of God is the final resurrection and transformation of the righteous into eternal life.

1 Corinthians 2:7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

Now, let’s try to establish when, in relation to other events, is the seventh trumpet blown.

When the seventh trumpet blows, Revelation tells us three things.

The kingdom of God begins and he will reign forever and ever.

God’s wrath has come.

Time for the judging of the dead (death is thrown into the lake of fire).

[font="Arial]
[/font][/color]So we see that God’s everlasting kingdom begins when the seventh trumpet blows, which means that for this to happen [u]before[/u] the millennium, the millennium must be (a part of) God’s [u]everlasting kingdom[/u]. But can God’s everlasting kingdom begin when we know that Satan will be released again in a thousand years? How is that possible? How is it possible for Satan to be released into God’s perfect kingdom? And since we know that God’s kingdom is to last “[u]forever and ever[/u]” we can not put a thousand year limit on it. In other words, it’s impossible to reconcile God’s kingdom beginning [u]before[/u] Satan is released from his prison to deceive the nations. Using simple logic we can see that the millennium is not God’s kingdom and God’s kingdom must begin [u]after[/u] Satan is done away with, after the millennium.

But if that’s not enough, we also know that the judging of the dead (which begins at the 7th trumpet) happens after Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. And, at the time of judging, “[i]death and Hades[/i]” are thrown into the lake of fire, so [u]there is no more death after the time of judging which begins when the seventh trumpet blows[/u]. How then can this trumpet blow before the millennium? We know that Satan will bring the armies of the earth against Jerusalem after the millennium, but if there is no more death, then what’s the point? If you can’t kill anyone, why have an army? [color="#ff0000"]This proves that when Satan is released from his prison, after the millennium, death has not yet been thrown into the lake of fire. Which means that the seventh trumpet can not have blown before the millennium.

Now let’s see how the harvest and wrath fit into all of this.

Revelation 14:14-19. This passage describes the “harvest of the earth” and the “grapes of wrath”. The harvest of the earth is the second resurrection. This happens just before the seventh trumpet is blown. Then the harvest of the grapes happens just after the seventh trumpet is blown. We know this because the description of the grapes being trampled is a description of the pouring out of God's seven bowls of wrath. The seven bowls are God's wrath. Not the seals or the trumpets, only the bowls. So the seventh trumpet blows just after our resurrection/transformation and before wrath.

Now notice the similarities between the grapes of wrath and what happens to Satan after the millennium.

The Grapes of Wrath

Notice when the grapes of wrath are gathered, they are "trampled in the winepress outside the city" (Revelation 14:20). When the beast and his armies are defeated by Jesus (after Satan had been released from his prison) they had "surrounded the city". In this description in Revelation 20:7-10, it is explained that fire comes down from heaven and devours them. This fire is the sharp sickle that harvests the grapes of wrath.

Notice also in the description of the grapes being trampled in the winepress that it relates the depth of the blood to "horses bridles". The horses are representative of an army. Clearly when the grapes are trampled outside the city it is an army surrounding the city. Just as depicted in Revelation 20:7-10.

So the description of the grapes being trampled in the winepress of God’s wrath is the same event described in Revelation 20, which we know happens after the millennium.

The Battle of Armageddon is similarly depicted several different ways in Revelation.

The Battle of Armageddon

The first reference to the battle of Armageddon is in Revelation 16:12-16

[sup]12[/sup] Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. [sup]13[/sup] And I saw three evil[sup][a][/sup] spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. [sup]14[/sup] They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

[sup]15[/sup] “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

[sup]16[/sup] And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew nameArmageddon.[sup][b][/sup]

“Armageddon” is the Hebrew word for “Megiddo” which is a place about 100 km north of Jerusalem. This is where they gather to prepare for battle. Notice that this description is part of the sixth bowl, which is after the harvest of the earth.

The second reference to this battle is in Revelation 19:19. Here the word Armageddon is not used but the description is the same.

Revelation 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.

The third reference to this battle is in Revelation 20:7-10. This description is clear that the battle happens after the thousand years are over.

Revelation 20:7-10 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison [sup]8[/sup] and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. [sup]9[/sup]They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. [sup]10[/sup] And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

In all three references, Satan gathers all the armies of the earth and marches against Jerusalem. Clearly they are all describing the same event. Which is further evidence that the trumpets and bowls all take place after the millennium.

And most importantly, when the seventh bowl is poured out, God says “it is done!”. It can not be done if Satan still has some cards to play. It can only be done when it is all done. That is irrefutable.

So to summarize, the seventh trumpet signals the start of wrath, the start of judging and the start of God's everlasting kingdom. Judging brings with it the end of death. This is strong evidence that the seventh trumpet is not blown before the millennium, because there will still be death during and after the millennium. Also, God's everlasting kingdom can not begin until after Satan is done away with for good, which means God's kingdom can not begin until after the millennium which means the seventh trumpet can not be blown until after the millennium.

The other stuff about the harvest of the earth, the grapes of wrath and the battle of Armageddon all support this timeline, as explained above.
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Your analysis is all messed up. There are two resurrections -- not one. Unless you think that God is completely unfair, then all those, who have lived and died in the flesh having never known Christ, do have a chance at salvation. That occurs during the Lord's Day as they are taught by those who passed the test in the flesh dispensation of time [made the first resurrection]. Satan is kept around during the Lord's Day to deceive those taught during that millennium.

Martin W. · Jan 19, 2011

Vincent

I recognize the work you have put into your post. I have not had the time to go through it step by step yet.

Here is my point

I cannot locate , or have lost in a flood here , a scholarly study on the trumpets question. It is not an easy study , I did not understand it completely at the time (nor do I now) but it cleared up some things for me.

So from memory , and subject to correction , I do recall this:
--the last trump
--the last trumpet
Describe two different things. Often we read them as being the same event.

That is all I recall. It is like there is the trump of God , and the trumpets sounded by the angels , and they are different events

Sorry I do not provide the proper information and don't have the time to spend on it right now.

If you have the time and ability Vincent , maybe you could research it a bit deeper. I feel it is an important subject and I would certainly appreciate your findings. Thank you.

Martin W.
I do not play the trumpet , but want to know how..

242006 · Jan 19, 2011

Martin W. said:
So from memory , and subject to correction , I do recall this:
--the last trump
--the last trumpet
Describe two different things. Often we read them as being the same event.

This concept was developed by Rapturists in effort to counter the argument made by Christians that the 'trump' of 1 Thes. 4:16 is the 7th trumpet sounded of Rev 11:15.

The only distinguishment is in the English rendering. It is the exact same Greek word used in 1 Thes. 4:16 as in Rev. 8:2,16 [and 1 Cor. 15:52].

Vincent · Jan 19, 2011

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veteran said:
Vincent, to help you see the 7th trumpet timing better, I offer response to what you posted...

Rev.10 says the when the 7th trumpet 'begins to sound' then God's mystery is finished, and not before its sounding. Rev.11 shows the 7th trumpet occurring along with the 3rd last woe.

At Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet, it begins the Milennium reign of Christ, and there will be a judgment (not the later great white throne judgment). That first one will be about Christ separating the goats from His sheep for the Milennium timing. It's about those of the first resurrection vs. the spiritually dead of Rev.20:5. The "second death" will still be in effect for those of the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29). The unjust will be changed/resurrected on that 7th trumpet event too, but will still be subject to the second death (souls dead without The Holy Spirit).

God's everlasting Kingdom will indeed 'begin' on earth with Christ's coming and gathering of His faithful saints to Jerusalem at the 7th trump. It begins, but is not complete until after the lake of fire event. It begins on earth with that "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" (at Jerusalem) of Rev.20:9. The wicked will still be on earth, but outside... that camp of the saints (i.e., the "outer darkness"; Rev.22:14-15). The tree of life and God's River will begin on earth, along with a literal temple per the Book of Ezekiel.

Then after Christ's thousand years reign, and after the lake of fire event with death destroyed, that's when God's Kingdom in full is going to manifest upon this earth, as the new heavens and a new earth. Some earth changes occur with Christ's coming, but a lot more changes occur in final after the lake of fire event. Yet when Christ returns to start His thousand years reign on earth, that's truly when God's Kingdom will begin on earth literally, and never ever be destroyed. But it's going to manifest in stages.

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[font="arial][size="2"] [/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="2"] [/size][/font][font="arial][size="2"]So you agree that God's kingdom begins at the seventh trump, but you insist that the seventh trump is blown before the millennium. Don't you think it's a bit of a stretch to say that God's kingdom is "kind of" established at the start of the millennium and then "fully" established after the millennium? I think that is a prime example of making scripture say what you want it to say.[/size][/font]

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veteran said:
That's not correct. Notice Christ gives a warning between the 6th and 7th vial (bowl) in Rev.16:15 later.

Rev 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)

veteran said:
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veteran said:
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Apostles Paul and Peter linked the day of The LORD and cup of God's wrath timing with Christ's coming "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). Christ is warning His saints there specifically in that time period between the 6th and 7th vials. And just like the mystery being finished at the sounding of the 7th trumpet per Rev.10, got that same kind of declaration there on the 7th vial. That reveals the 7th trumpet and 7th vial are timed together.

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[font="arial] [/font][font="arial][size="3"]I'll have to think about that.[/size][/font][font="arial] [/font][font="arial] [/font]

veteran · Jan 20, 2011

Vincent said:
So you agree that God's kingdom begins at the seventh trump, but you insist that the seventh trump is blown before the millennium. Don't you think it's a bit of a stretch to say that God's kingdom is "kind of" established at the start of the millennium and then "fully" established after the millennium? I think that is a prime example of making scripture say what you want it to say.

Vincent said:
I'll have to think about that.

I think it's a bit of stretch to infer I said "kind of" when I didn't.

God's Kingdom on earth will begin with Christ's second coming as written in God's prophets. But as also shown, it will not be fully manifest on earth until after death, hell, Satan and the wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire. That concept shouldn't be difficult to understand, since God also showed His Salvation coming in progressive stages per Old Testament and New Testament history. If you're having a difficult time understanding that, then it shows you probably need more Bible study.

tomwebster · Jan 20, 2011

All of the Seals, Trumps and Vials are completed when we get to the Day of the Lord.

Vincent · Feb 6, 2011

veteran said:
I think it's a bit of stretch to infer I said "kind of" when I didn't.

God's Kingdom on earth will begin with Christ's second coming as written in God's prophets. But as also shown, it will not be fully manifest on earth until after death, hell, Satan and the wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire. That concept shouldn't be difficult to understand, since God also showed His Salvation coming in progressive stages per Old Testament and New Testament history. If you're having a difficult time understanding that, then it shows you probably need more Bible study.

Of course I paraphrased "kind of" to simplify your statements, but it is essentially what you said and that is not a stretch. You said that "God's everlasting Kingdom will indeed 'begin' on earth with Christ's coming" (which you claim happens before the millennium) and then you said "Then after Christ's thousand years reign, and after the lake of fire event with death destroyed, that's when God's Kingdom in full is going to manifest upon this earth".

First of all you put the word "begin" in quotes which signifies a "less than certain" usage of the word, and then you said God's kingdom would be "manifest in full" after the millennium. So if it is manifest in full after, you are implying that it is not manifest in full before the millennium. So when I paraphrase with "kind of" I think that is a fair wording.

What I am seeing in your arguments is a lack of willingness to accept what is clear. God's everlasting kingdom can not be partially manifest at one point and then fully manifest at another point. It simply begins when it begins. And to break it down and make this question a little easier, all you have to do is ask yourself "Can God's everlasting kingdom be interrupted by Satan?". I'm going to say, no.

So if God establishes some kind of rule on earth during the millennium then it can't be the everlasting kingdom we are talking about, because it does not last beyond a thousand years.

veteran · Feb 14, 2011

Vincent said:
Of course I paraphrased "kind of" to simplify your statements, but it is essentially what you said and that is not a stretch. You said that "God's everlasting Kingdom will indeed 'begin' on earth with Christ's coming" (which you claim happens before the millennium) and then you said "Then after Christ's thousand years reign, and after the lake of fire event with death destroyed, that's when God's Kingdom in full is going to manifest upon this earth".

Vincent said:
First of all you put the word "begin" in quotes which signifies a "less than certain" usage of the word, and then you said God's kingdom would be "manifest in full" after the millennium. So if it is manifest in full after, you are implying that it is not manifest in full before the millennium. So when I paraphrase with "kind of" I think that is a fair wording.

You never read anywhere that I said Christ's Kingdom on earth begins prior to the Milennium. You might have read that from others, but not from me.

Christ's Kingdom and reign with His elect kings and priests will begin on earth at His return, like Rev.11:15-19 shows with the 7th trumpet, and per Rev.20. I can't make it any clearer than that brother. That's when Christ's direct rule on earth will begin and never end, as per our LORD by all the OT prophets and NT Apostles.

But if you'll note what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15:23-28, Christ's future "thousand years" reign will manifest with a difference than it will after the thousand years with God's Kingdom. What difference is that? If you'll read Rev.20, Satan, the wicked, and the abode of hell are not yet destroyed until AFTER Christ's thousand years reign. With His reign after the thousand years, Satan, the wicked, death, and hell ALL go into the "lake of fire". Have you not read that Rev.20 Scripture?

Moreover, per Ezekiel 40 forward, there's going to be a Milennium Temple setup during Christ's thousand years reign. But in Rev.21:22 there is no more temple which is for after the thousand years. The new heavens and a new earth time is not until the Great White Throne Judgment and "lake of fire" event is over.

What I am seeing in your arguments is a lack of willingness to accept what is clear. God's everlasting kingdom can not be partially manifest at one point and then fully manifest at another point. It simply begins when it begins. And to break it down and make this question a little easier, all you have to do is ask yourself "

Can God's everlasting kingdom be interrupted by Satan?". I'm going to say, no.

So if God establishes some kind of rule on earth during the millennium then it can't be the everlasting kingdom we are talking about, because it does not last beyond a thousand years.

What it sounds like you're doing is interpreting the idea of Christ's everlasting reign as if Satan, the wicked, death, and hell are all destroyed at the start of Christ's thousand years reign of Rev.20. That's not what the Scripture states. You're also misinterpreting the meaning of the "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. The Rev.11:15 Scripture declares Christ's everlasting reign de facto over all nations with the 7th trumpet. Nowhere does Scripture infer His reign ends after the thousand years. That's a false idea some preacher no doubt has planted in your mind.

Charlie · Feb 18, 2011

Dear Vincent:

I agree the sounding of the 7th trumpet marks the coming of the new heaven and earth.

The fact the sounding of the 7th trumpet is separated from the sounding of the 6th trumpet, in scriptures, by the 7 thunders, should alert us to a break in the timing.

Jesus will reign from heaven, during the 1,000 years, but not on earth, in accordance with Jeremiah 30:9,

But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

As I see it, those who will be given incorruptible bodies in the resurrection/rapture, will rule and reign with Jesus Christ from heaven, during the 1,000 years and I think they will be the ones who are referred to as servants in Matt. 25:14-30.

As to the resurretion and the rapture, what do you think is meant by 'accounted worthy' in Luke 20:27-36 and 21:36?

God Bless you. Charlie.

Charlie · Feb 18, 2011

Charlie -- Sorry, double post.

God Bless you/. Chrlie

Charlie · Feb 18, 2011

CharlesBaker said:
Charlie -- Sorry, double post.

God Bless you. Charlie

veteran · Feb 18, 2011

CharlesBaker said:
Dear Vincent:

I agree the sounding of the 7th trumpet marks the coming of the new heaven and earth.

The fact the sounding of the 7th trumpet is separated from the sounding of the 6th trumpet, in scriptures, by the 7 thunders, should alert us to a break in the timing.

Jesus will reign from heaven, during the 1,000 years, but not on earth, in accordance with Jeremiah 30:9,

But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

As I see it, those who will be given incorruptible bodies in the resurrection/rapture, will rule and reign with Jesus Christ from heaven, during the 1,000 years and I think they will be the ones who are referred to as servants in Matt. 25:14-30.

As to the resurretion and the rapture, what do you think is meant by 'accounted worthy' in Luke 20:27-36 and 21:36?

God Bless you. Charlie.

Then you're not really reading what the Scripture states either. The Jer.30:9 verse does not say Jesus will rule from Heaven during that "thousand years". The following Ps.2 Scripture does show Christ's future reign to be on earth.

Ps 2:6-9
6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee.
8 Ask of Me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
(KJV)

And the following verse declares where Christ's servants that reign with Him during that time will be...

Rev 20:9
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(KJV)

The Godhead is Three Persons as One. That's how Christ can be on earth de facto (like He was after His resurrection) and The Father still be in Heaven during that time.

Rev 11:14-19
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
(KJV)

Rev 19:19-21
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him That sat on the horse, and against His army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him That sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of His mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
(KJV)

That beast and false prophet are roles manifest only for the tribulation. Those roles are destroyed at Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet, but Satan and the unjust are not yet destroyed.

Rev 20:1-4
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)

The Rev.20:9 verse shows where Satan and his final army will go to attack after the thousand years; it will be "the camp of the saints" and "beloved city" that will be "up on the breadth of the earth", as written.

Per the Ezekiel 40 forward Scripture about the Milennium Temple, Christ will go back and forth from earth and Heaven during that thousand years reign. His saints will serve Him in that Temple at His table at that camp of the saints on earth, which is what our Lord Jesus was talking about with the following...

Luke 12:37
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
(KJV)

Rev 3:20-21
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne.
(KJV)

rjp34652@yahoo.com · Mar 15, 2011

Vincent said:
So to summarize, the seventh trumpet signals the start of wrath, the start of judging and the start of God's everlasting kingdom. Judging brings with it the end of death. This is strong evidence that the seventh trumpet is not blown before the millennium, because there will still be death during and after the millennium. Also, God's everlasting kingdom can not begin until after Satan is done away with for good, which means God's kingdom can not begin until after the millennium which means the seventh trumpet can not be blown until after the millennium.
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"Judging brings with it the end of death."
I don't think you are entirely wrong with this statement, just partially wrong. To paraphrase the old hymn, the STING of death will be removed, but not the essence of it. Not completely. Go back to Revelation and examine the image of the founding of the heavenly city. It states that a river will flow out of the city and that the Tree of Life will grow on both sides of the river. It's fruit will be used for healing. If there is no death, then why is healing needed? What of accidental deaths? The ideology of the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon earth is one of physicality, meaning that the laws of physics are only partially amended.

veteran · Mar 23, 2011

Vincent: "So to summarize, the seventh trumpet signals the start of wrath, the start of judging and the start of God's everlasting kingdom. Judging brings with it the end of death. This is strong evidence that the seventh trumpet is not blown before the millennium, because there will still be death during and after the millennium. Also, God's everlasting kingdom can not begin until after Satan is done away with for good, which means God's kingdom can not begin until after the millennium which means the seventh trumpet can not be blown until after the millennium."

Like Rev.20 shows, the ONLY kind of death remaining after Christ's return on the 7th trumpet is the "second death"...

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
(KJV)

Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(KJV)

Since the only type of death existing during that thousand years is the casting into the lake of fire, and that lake of fire event does not happen until the thousand years are over, then how will people be dying during the thousand years?

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

At the sound of His voice is the "shout" of 1 Thess.4:16 when Christ returns. It coincides with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God. It's the same last trump Paul mentioned in 1 Cor.15:52, which is the final 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11:15. The wicked who have done evil will be resurrected at that time also, to the "resurrection of damnation". Then Christ's thousand years reign begins.

So if the wicked are already resurrected too for the thousand years like our Lord Jesus showed in John 5:28-29, who will still be dying during that thousand years?

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The Timing Of The Seventh Trumpet

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