Revelation 12

[Truthnightmare]

Revelation 12:9-12
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren [satan/antichrist] is cast down [to the earth], which accused them before our God day and night [documenting that satan is held in Heaven].
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death [documenting Tribulation Martyrs].
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. KJV​

Carrying on the above Scripture, we see that satan (dragon/serpent/antichrist/etc.), when cast out, attacks the remnant for a time times and half time:​

Revelation 12:13-17
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. KJV​

the second part of the Tribulation (assumed on good evidence to be a five month period―but not enough evidence exists in the Scriptures to state for sure that it is exactly five months). The first part of the Tribulation being the below 42 months (1260 days = 42 months):​

Revelation 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. KJV​

Immediately after the above 42 months (1260 days), satan/antichrist/etc. is cast out for his (assumed 5) months reign:​

Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. KJV​

And then the above Scripture leads into the one posted above first, which mentions the time times and half time. So, the above Scripture, representing the persecutions in the first part of the Tribulation, happens before satan arrives here in person for the second part of the Tribulation.
In other words, Revelation chapter twelve covers BOTH PARTS of the Tribulation, and draws distinction between them both; i.e., 1260 days (42 Mo.) for the first, and time times and half (5 Mo. [shortened from Daniel's 3½ years by Christ in Mat 24:22) for the second.
Also, observe that satan-antichrist is cast out at the same time as the fallen angels:​

Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. KJV​

Moving to Revelation chapter nine, we see that these fallen angels (locust army) have five months time to work their works:​

Revelation 9:5
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. KJV​

And this same locust army/fallen angels mentioned again:​

Revelation 9:10
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. KJV​

We also see that satan/antichrist's time is concurrent with (running along with) the locust army/fallen angels:​

Revelation 9:10-12
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past [Fifth Trump]; and, behold, there come two woes more [6th & 7th Trumps] hereafter. KJV​

In verse 12 above we see that this all happens (satan and his angels arriving) in the Fifth Trump, not in the Sixth Trump as many believe:​

Revelation 9:12
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter. KJV​

There are three of the Trumps that are referred to as the "Woe Trumps," those being the fifth. sixth, and seventh. Therefore, the "one woe" that is "past" in the above is Fifth Trump, the remaining "two woes more hereafter" are the Sixth and Seventh Trumps.​

Revelation 8:12-13
12 And the fourth angel sounded [Forth Trump], and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe [1], woe [2], woe [3], to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels [5th, 6th, 7th Trumps], which are yet to sound! KJV​

A very interesting Chapter to say the least.

 

[Keiw]

Yes, it explains the ride of the white horse at Rev 6:2= the war in heaven-White horse = righteous war in revelation. Satan is the dragon.
1/3 of the stars are the fallen angels( demons)---(12:5= Rev 6:2 a crown given to him=Jesus--notice though Michael rode the white horse in the war in heaven, Rev 19:11 is the continuation of that ride that began at 6:2. Jesus is shown as the rider at 19:11= Michael is Jesus.
1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return( Rev 6:2) hecomes with the trumpet of God( announcing the ride of the white horse) and with the voice of the archangel) --it is his voice.
Daniel 12:1--Its Michael who stands up for Gods chosen in the last days) = as Gods appointed king.

 

[Jack]

Yes, it explains the ride of the white horse at Rev 6:2= the war in heaven-White horse = righteous war in revelation. Satan is the dragon.
1/3 of the stars are the fallen angels( demons)---(12:5= Rev 6:2 a crown given to him=Jesus--notice though Michael rode the white horse in the war in heaven, Rev 19:11 is the continuation of that ride that began at 6:2. Jesus is shown as the rider at 19:11= Michael is Jesus.
1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return( Rev 6:2) hecomes with the trumpet of God( announcing the ride of the white horse) and with the voice of the archangel) --it is his voice.
Daniel 12:1--Its Michael who stands up for Gods chosen in the last days) = as Gods appointed king.

Michael WORSHIPS Jesus!

Heb 1 Let all God's angels WORSHIP Him!

 

[Keiw]

Michael WORSHIPS Jesus!

Heb 1 Let all God's angels WORSHIP Him!

Obeisance is correct for Gods appointed king. Yet one cannot give it to themselves as you suggest.

 

[Jack]

Obeisance is correct for Gods appointed king. Yet one cannot give it to themselves as you suggest.

I quoted YOUR NWT! NWT 1970 Heb 1 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him!

Michael WORSHIPS Jesus!

 

[Keiw]

I quoted YOUR NWT! NWT 1970 Heb 1 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him!

Michael WORSHIPS Jesus!

2024 Jack--Keep up with God.--His truth is progressive for mortals-See Matt 24:45= at the proper time. Obviously 1970 wasn't the proper time to know the facts about that. Your problem is that you spend your time rejecting the teachers is with, and had this written about you centuries ago= Whatever you do to the least of these, my brothers, you do to me. Very sad Jack.

 

[Jack]

2024 Jack--Keep up with God.--His truth is progressive for mortals-See Matt 24:45= at the proper time. Obviously 1970 wasn't the proper time to know the facts about that. Your problem is that you spend your time rejecting the teachers is with, and had this written about you centuries ago= Whatever you do to the least of these, my brothers, you do to me. Very sad Jack.

The WatchTower edited out the Truth that Michael WORSHIPS Jesus, just like they did when Peter said, "Lord you know ALL THINGS"! You just admitted the WatchTower was wrong about God of the Bible. See how God brings out the Truth? Jesus is God! Michael is an angel. Michael WORSHIPS Jesus!

 

[Keiw]

The WatchTower edited out the Truth that Michael WORSHIPS Jesus, just like they did when Peter said, "Lord you know ALL THINGS"! You just admitted the WatchTower was wrong about God of the Bible. See how God brings out the Truth? Jesus is God! Michael is an angel. Michael WORSHIPS Jesus!

I explained that Greek word to you. It was Catholicism who erred using worship for one who has a God--If God had a God there would be more than one God=reality. Jesus has a God, thus bowing in obeisance to Gods appointed king is the correct usage of that Greek word( Proskenaue) for Jesus, not worship.

 

[Jack]

I explained that Greek word to you. It was Catholicism who erred using worship for one who has a God--If God had a God there would be more than one God=reality. Jesus has a God, thus bowing in obeisance to Gods appointed king is the correct usage of that Greek word( Proskenaue) for Jesus, not worship.

NWT 1970 Heb 1:6 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him.

I just quoted YOUR JW bible! Michael WORSHIPS Jesus!

 

[Brakelite]

NWT 1970 Heb 1:6 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him.

I just quoted YOUR JW bible! Michael WORSHIPS Jesus!

What is an angel? What evidence do you have that Michael is one?

 

[Brakelite]

KJV Revelation 12:1-6
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Women are prophetic metaphors for the church. A pure woman, as in this case, a faithful wife/church. A prostitute, an unfaithful woman, apostate church. The woman above represents the faithful followers of God who looked on expectation of the appearance of Messiah...such as John the Baptist, and Simeon and Anna. In other words, the church ready and waiting on expectation to bring forth the Messiah, even in longing and travail.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Obviously Satan, as explained later in the chapter. But the devil in person did not stand before Mary, or the church, in order to kill the child. Satan uses agents. The agent at this time was Herod who was representing pagan Rome.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Jesus.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore
days.
The church, as a direct result of persecution, fled into the wilderness after Christ's ascension. First persecuted by the Jews, then pagan Rome, and after the 4th century or thereabouts, but increasing exponentially thereafter from around the 6th century, until the 18th century, papal Rome was responsible for the persecutions. 1260 years.

 

[Jack]

What is an angel? What evidence do you have that Michael is one?

Jude 1:9 (NKJV)
9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

 

[Keiw]

NWT 1970 Heb 1:6 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him.

I just quoted YOUR JW bible! Michael WORSHIPS Jesus!

It doesn't say that now so why try to deceive? Only deceivers try to deceive by satans will. Next time show the whole truth on the matter.

 

[Jack]

It doesn't say that now so why try to deceive? Only deceivers try to deceive by satans will. Next time show the whole truth on the matter.

Deceivers? Yep that's the WatchTower. Editing the Truth from their bible.

NWT Heb 1:6 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him!

Michael WORSHIPS Jesus!

Oh yeah, the WatchTower also edited out Peter's statement to Jesus, "Lord you know ALL THINGS"!

Yet, deceivers indeed!

I wonder how soon they will edit out Thomas' statement to Jesus, "My Lord and my GOD"!

 

[Brakelite]

Jude 1:9 (NKJV)
9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

The word archangel, simply means chief messenger. It does not necessarily mean a created being.
President Biden is the Commander in Chief of all the armed forces is he not? Does that make him a soldier? Pilot? Seaman? In the same manner, Michael is the chief of all the armed forces in heaven... The angelic host... But that does not mean He is a created angel. Is not Jesus the Lord of hosts? Chief Messenger of the covenant? The Word of God?
And why would not Jesus appeal to His Father in rebuking Satan? Did He not say to the women at the tomb, "I am going to your God and My God"?

 

[Jack]

The word archangel, simply means chief messenger. It does not necessarily mean a created being.

All were created except God. Of course Michael is a "created being".

President Biden is the Commander in Chief of all the armed forces is he not? Does that make him a soldier? Pilot? Seaman? In the same manner, Michael is the chief of all the armed forces in heaven... The angelic host... But that does not mean He is a created angel. Is not Jesus the Lord of hosts? Chief Messenger of the covenant? The Word of God?
And why would not Jesus appeal to His Father in rebuking Satan? Did He not say to the women at the tomb, "I am going to your God and My God"?

Jude 1:9 (CJB)
9 When Mikha’el, one of the ruling angels, took issue with the Adversary, arguing over the body of Moshe, he did not dare bring against him an insulting charge, but said, “May Adonai rebuke you.”

Jude 1:9 (CEV)
9 Even Michael, the chief angel, didn't dare to insult the devil, when the two of them were arguing about the body of Moses. All Michael said was, "The Lord will punish you!"

Jude 1:9 (NLT2)
9 But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, “The Lord rebuke you!” (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses’ body.)

Jude 1:9 (TLB)
9 Yet Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, when he was arguing with Satan about Moses’ body, did not dare to accuse even Satan, or jeer at him, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you."

Jude 1:9 (TEV)
9 Not even the chief angel Michael did this. In his quarrel with the Devil, when they argued about who would have the body of Moses, Michael did not dare condemn the Devil with insulting words, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

 

[Brakelite]

All were created except God. Of course Michael is a "created being".

Jude 1:9 (CJB)
9 When Mikha’el, one of the ruling angels, took issue with the Adversary, arguing over the body of Moshe, he did not dare bring against him an insulting charge, but said, “May Adonai rebuke you.”

Jude 1:9 (CEV)
9 Even Michael, the chief angel, didn't dare to insult the devil, when the two of them were arguing about the body of Moses. All Michael said was, "The Lord will punish you!"

Jude 1:9 (NLT2)
9 But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, “The Lord rebuke you!” (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses’ body.)

Jude 1:9 (TLB)
9 Yet Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, when he was arguing with Satan about Moses’ body, did not dare to accuse even Satan, or jeer at him, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you."

Jude 1:9 (TEV)
9 Not even the chief angel Michael did this. In his quarrel with the Devil, when they argued about who would have the body of Moses, Michael did not dare condemn the Devil with insulting words, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Chief Messenger... Mighty Messenger... One of the mightiest of Messengers... Ruling Messenger. I agree with you that all those angels/ messengers, subordinate to the Lord and Creator Jesus, were created beings. But the Chief Messenger? The Angel of the Covenant? The Lord of hosts?

Jude 1:9: “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”

This text identifies Michael as the “archangel.” The only other place in the Bible that uses this term is 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”

Here we read that Jesus has the “voice of the archangel.” He is not borrowing the voice of another being. No, it is literally his voice, because it is at the sound of his voice that the dead are raised from their graves. Compare this with the following texts:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. … Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:25, 28-29)


In no uncertain terms, we see here that Jesus is that archangel whose voice raises the dead. It’s noteworthy that the dispute is over the body of Moses, who later we see resurrected (Matthew 17:3). The fact that Jesus, and not Satan, has the power to resurrect, this grants us more evidence as to who Michael actually is and why Satan tried to resist him.

Additionally, there is a striking parallel between Jude 1:9 and Zechariah 3:2: “And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” The rebuking is, in fact, done by “the LORD.

Daniel 12:1: “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:1-2)

This next text transitions well with the three we just examined because here we also find the resurrection of the dead taking place at the appearance of the archangel. Angels do not have the power to resurrect the dead. That is a prerogative of deity. It is not Michael, as a created angelic being, raising the dead… it is Jesus, manifested as “Michael,” who resurrects the dead.

Daniel 10:13: “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.”

This text calls Michael “one of the chief princes.” Contextually there are two other princes mentioned, the Prince of Persia (verse 13) and the Prince of Grecia (verse 20). Princes are above other people so it follows that these princes are “chief” among their people. Obviously, when the passage says one of it is referring to the princes that the passage is talking about.

Young’s Literal Translation offers an alternative reading, “and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads…” Both first or one of are appropriate translations because Daniel 12:1 says that Michael is the “great” prince. Thus, though there are two other princes, Michael is the first and greatest of them all.

Revelation 12:7: “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.”

This text identifies Michael as the commander of angels (“his angels”). This interpretation works very well with the actual meaning of the word “archangel.”3 The greek word ἀρχάγγελος literally means, “chief of the angels.” Thus Michael is the leader of all the heavenly angels.


Daniel 10:21: “But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.” (Daniel 10:21).

Probably the most significant detail about this verse is that it identifies Michael as the leader of God’s people as well. This is deduced from the fact that it says “your prince” in contrast to the other two princes which belong to Persia and Greece.

What we have gathered so far is strong evidence for Christophany when it comes to the appearance of Michael:

A) Jesus, not an angel, is the one who resurrects the dead:

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.” (John 11:25)

B) Jesus, not an angel, is the one who commands and leads the angels:

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.” (Matthew 13:41)

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True… And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19:11-14)

C) And Jesus, not an angel, is the leader of God’s people:

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Putting all this together we are presented with two options: either there are two Beings in heaven, each performing the same roles, or one being. Either both Jesus and Michael resurrect the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people, or Jesus as Michael resurrects the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people. In light of the evidence presented I think any reasonable Bible student well understands that only Jesus has the power to perform all three of these tasks.

 

[Brakelite]

THE ANGEL OF THE LORD

Throughout the Old Testament we constantly find the appearance of an “angel of the Lord/captain of the hosts” who manifestly turns out to be God. Here are those verses:

Example #1:

“And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude… And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?” (Genesis 16:7-10, 13)

Example #2:

“And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son.” (Gen 22:15-16)

Example #3:

“And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.” (Genesis 31:11-13)

Example #4:

“But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.” (Judges 13:21-22)

In these first four examples we find an angel who is identified as “the God who sees,” “the Lord,” the “God of Bethel,” and the God that appears to Manoah and his wife. Since God is appearing to these individuals as the “angel of the Lord” it is evident that the use of the word “angel” does not always mean it is a created, angelic being. Not every time, at least.

Let’s examine some other examples:

Example #5:

“And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:24-30)

Jacob identifies this mysterious man as God, and the prophet Hosea refers to him as an “angel” (Hosea 12:2-4). Since “no man hath seen the Father” (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) and yet Jacob, along with Manoah and his wife, saw God “face to face,” it is evident that this divine angel was none other than Jesus himself.

Example #6:

“And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.” (Exodus 3:3-6)

Here, the angel identifies himself as “God.” In verse 14 God tells Moses that he is the great “I AM.” This is absolute proof that it was Jesus, the “angel of the Lord” that appeared to Moses, because Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58). Moreover, these verses simultaneously prove that Jesus is not a created angelic being, because “I AM” implies a self-existent, eternal being. We reject the Jehovah’s Witness viewpoint that Jesus is a created being. To Seventh-day Adventists, Jesus is deity, and has always existed. The “angel of the Lord” is simply the tangible pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus in certain instances of the Old Testament.

Example #7:

“Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, [and] spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God… Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.” (Daniel 3:24-25, 28)

Here we have a direct reference to Jesus, the “Son of God.” The King, for a brief moment under direct inspiration of God, recognizes the parallel between Jesus and God’s “angel.”

Example #8:

“And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. (Joshua 5:13-15)

This “captain of the host of the Lord” accepted Joshua’s worship. If this were a mere man or angel of God, he would have put a stop to it immediately (compare with Acts 14:11-15, Rev. 22:8-9). Moreover Joshua was commanded to remove his shoes because he was standing on holy ground. No mere man or angel can make the ground holy. Recall that it was God’s presence that made the ground holy at the scene of the burning bush, where Moses was also told to remove his shoes (Exodus 3:5). Thus the one who appeared to Joshua as the leader of God’s host was God himself, or Jesus, since no man has ever seen the Father.

Moreover there is a connection between this Being and Michael. Note that it says he is the “captain of the host of the Lord.” What does archangel mean again? That’s right, it means “chief of the angels.” Now unless there are two Beings that lead God’s heavenly army (which we do not have scriptural proof for) we are forced to conclude that it was none other than Jesus who appeared to Joshua as Michael, the “captain of the host of the Lord.”

Example #9:

“Behold, I will send my messenger (malak), and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger (malak) of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.” (Malachi 3:1)

In Hebrew, the word “angel” is malak and it simply means “messenger, representative.” The term does not always refer to angelic beings. It can also refer to humans as well. Now according to Matthew 11:7, 10, the first messenger is John the Baptist. Since it was the office of John to prepare the way before Jesus (see John 1:30) it follows that the second messenger in Malachi 3:1, is Jesus. Thus we have Jesus being referred to as a malak, or angel.

The evidence is strong in all of these texts that the appearance of this angel is in fact the appearance of the preincarnate Jesus. He is that archangel, or chief/leader of the angels, or “angel of the Lord” whose voice raises the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people. He is that “angel of the host” and the “messenger of the covenant” as well. No other Being falls into these categories except Jesus Christ himself. Michael is simply his alternative name.

 

[Jack]

Chief Messenger... Mighty Messenger... One of the mightiest of Messengers... Ruling Messenger. I agree with you that all those angels/ messengers, subordinate to the Lord and Creator Jesus, were created beings. But the Chief Messenger? The Angel of the Covenant? The Lord of hosts?

Jude 1:9: “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”

This text identifies Michael as the “archangel.” The only other place in the Bible that uses this term is 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”

Here we read that Jesus has the “voice of the archangel.” He is not borrowing the voice of another being. No, it is literally his voice, because it is at the sound of his voice that the dead are raised from their graves. Compare this with the following texts:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. … Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:25, 28-29)


In no uncertain terms, we see here that Jesus is that archangel whose voice raises the dead. It’s noteworthy that the dispute is over the body of Moses, who later we see resurrected (Matthew 17:3). The fact that Jesus, and not Satan, has the power to resurrect, this grants us more evidence as to who Michael actually is and why Satan tried to resist him.

Additionally, there is a striking parallel between Jude 1:9 and Zechariah 3:2: “And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” The rebuking is, in fact, done by “the LORD.

Daniel 12:1: “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:1-2)

This next text transitions well with the three we just examined because here we also find the resurrection of the dead taking place at the appearance of the archangel. Angels do not have the power to resurrect the dead. That is a prerogative of deity. It is not Michael, as a created angelic being, raising the dead… it is Jesus, manifested as “Michael,” who resurrects the dead.

Daniel 10:13: “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.”

This text calls Michael “one of the chief princes.” Contextually there are two other princes mentioned, the Prince of Persia (verse 13) and the Prince of Grecia (verse 20). Princes are above other people so it follows that these princes are “chief” among their people. Obviously, when the passage says one of it is referring to the princes that the passage is talking about.

Young’s Literal Translation offers an alternative reading, “and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads…” Both first or one of are appropriate translations because Daniel 12:1 says that Michael is the “great” prince. Thus, though there are two other princes, Michael is the first and greatest of them all.

Revelation 12:7: “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.”

This text identifies Michael as the commander of angels (“his angels”). This interpretation works very well with the actual meaning of the word “archangel.”3 The greek word ἀρχάγγελος literally means, “chief of the angels.” Thus Michael is the leader of all the heavenly angels.


Daniel 10:21: “But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.” (Daniel 10:21).

Probably the most significant detail about this verse is that it identifies Michael as the leader of God’s people as well. This is deduced from the fact that it says “your prince” in contrast to the other two princes which belong to Persia and Greece.

What we have gathered so far is strong evidence for Christophany when it comes to the appearance of Michael:

A) Jesus, not an angel, is the one who resurrects the dead:

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.” (John 11:25)

B) Jesus, not an angel, is the one who commands and leads the angels:

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.” (Matthew 13:41)

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True… And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19:11-14)

C) And Jesus, not an angel, is the leader of God’s people:

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Putting all this together we are presented with two options: either there are two Beings in heaven, each performing the same roles, or one being. Either both Jesus and Michael resurrect the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people, or Jesus as Michael resurrects the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people. In light of the evidence presented I think any reasonable Bible student well understands that only Jesus has the power to perform all three of these tasks.

Jesus is God the Creator. He created EVERYTHING, including Michael.

Col 1 By Him all things were created!

The Godhead:

Gen 1:26 God said, "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness".

Colossians 2:9
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

 

[Jack]

THE ANGEL OF THE LORD

Throughout the Old Testament we constantly find the appearance of an “angel of the Lord/captain of the hosts” who manifestly turns out to be God. Here are those verses:

Example #1:

“And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude… And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?” (Genesis 16:7-10, 13)

Example #2:

“And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son.” (Gen 22:15-16)

Example #3:

“And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.” (Genesis 31:11-13)

Example #4:

“But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.” (Judges 13:21-22)

In these first four examples we find an angel who is identified as “the God who sees,” “the Lord,” the “God of Bethel,” and the God that appears to Manoah and his wife. Since God is appearing to these individuals as the “angel of the Lord” it is evident that the use of the word “angel” does not always mean it is a created, angelic being. Not every time, at least.

Let’s examine some other examples:

Example #5:

“And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:24-30)

Jacob identifies this mysterious man as God, and the prophet Hosea refers to him as an “angel” (Hosea 12:2-4). Since “no man hath seen the Father” (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) and yet Jacob, along with Manoah and his wife, saw God “face to face,” it is evident that this divine angel was none other than Jesus himself.

Example #6:

“And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.” (Exodus 3:3-6)

Here, the angel identifies himself as “God.” In verse 14 God tells Moses that he is the great “I AM.” This is absolute proof that it was Jesus, the “angel of the Lord” that appeared to Moses, because Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58). Moreover, these verses simultaneously prove that Jesus is not a created angelic being, because “I AM” implies a self-existent, eternal being. We reject the Jehovah’s Witness viewpoint that Jesus is a created being. To Seventh-day Adventists, Jesus is deity, and has always existed. The “angel of the Lord” is simply the tangible pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus in certain instances of the Old Testament.

Example #7:

“Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, [and] spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God… Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.” (Daniel 3:24-25, 28)

Here we have a direct reference to Jesus, the “Son of God.” The King, for a brief moment under direct inspiration of God, recognizes the parallel between Jesus and God’s “angel.”

Example #8:

“And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. (Joshua 5:13-15)

This “captain of the host of the Lord” accepted Joshua’s worship. If this were a mere man or angel of God, he would have put a stop to it immediately (compare with Acts 14:11-15, Rev. 22:8-9). Moreover Joshua was commanded to remove his shoes because he was standing on holy ground. No mere man or angel can make the ground holy. Recall that it was God’s presence that made the ground holy at the scene of the burning bush, where Moses was also told to remove his shoes (Exodus 3:5). Thus the one who appeared to Joshua as the leader of God’s host was God himself, or Jesus, since no man has ever seen the Father.

Moreover there is a connection between this Being and Michael. Note that it says he is the “captain of the host of the Lord.” What does archangel mean again? That’s right, it means “chief of the angels.” Now unless there are two Beings that lead God’s heavenly army (which we do not have scriptural proof for) we are forced to conclude that it was none other than Jesus who appeared to Joshua as Michael, the “captain of the host of the Lord.”

Example #9:

“Behold, I will send my messenger (malak), and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger (malak) of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.” (Malachi 3:1)

In Hebrew, the word “angel” is malak and it simply means “messenger, representative.” The term does not always refer to angelic beings. It can also refer to humans as well. Now according to Matthew 11:7, 10, the first messenger is John the Baptist. Since it was the office of John to prepare the way before Jesus (see John 1:30) it follows that the second messenger in Malachi 3:1, is Jesus. Thus we have Jesus being referred to as a malak, or angel.

The evidence is strong in all of these texts that the appearance of this angel is in fact the appearance of the preincarnate Jesus. He is that archangel, or chief/leader of the angels, or “angel of the Lord” whose voice raises the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people. He is that “angel of the host” and the “messenger of the covenant” as well. No other Being falls into these categories except Jesus Christ himself. Michael is simply his alternative name.

And that is absolutely true. But it's quite a stretch to say Michael is Jesus. Jesus is called the Savior many times in the NT. Michael? Not even once. Jesus is God. Michael is not.