"The word was a god"?

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Kermos

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Note what God wrote - "You shall have no other gods before me". The Hebrew word translated as before, al, means above, over, upon or against. For example, it's used in Genesis 1:2,20:

2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters
20) And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

YHWH did not say that you shall not have any other gods, He just said that you should not consider any other god (mighty being, or ruler) to be above God in authority and power.

We can have other rulers, but we should not consider them more important and above God. As Jesus taught, Mark 12:17 (WEB):

(17) Jesus answered them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” They marveled greatly at him.

"You shall not worship any other god, for YHWH, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" (Exodus 34:14).

Hmmm, you worship Jesus whom you say is a god (based at least in part on your misunderstanding of John 1:1)!

You have a god named Jesus (John 1:1) for your salvation that is above Jehovah for salvation - Jehovah cannot be approached without first satisfying your a god named Jesus who is above Jehovah.

In other words, you have a god named Jesus as a barrier above or before Jehovah.

The word "before" is a legitimate translation for Strong's Hebrew: 5921. עַל (al) - upon, above, over, against, before, so these all can represent a barrier to some degree.

"You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3" is an accurate translation.

You practice lawless sin (Matthew 7:23) against God's righteous commandment because you have "a god" named Jesus (John 1:1) before (or above) Jehovah.
 

OzSpen

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There are no 3 persons mentioned as God, only the Father, as I said.

The weakness of your position is seen in relying on John 1:1, which does not even refer to Jesus but God.

Jesus is not mentioned in John’s Gospel until v14. And his Gospel is the most anti-trinitarian of the whole Bible. V 20:31 states his Gospel was written for a different purpose; namely, to show Jesus is the Son of God. So, it’s funny to see trinitarians use John’s Gospel for a purpose other than what John intended.

I’m OK with that.

Wrangler,

See #568 where I proved you to be wrong about the 3 persons as God and all of the references are from the Bible.

"The Word" is Jesus and he appears in John 1:1.

Oz
 

Wrangler

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Wrangler,

See #568 where I proved you to be wrong about the 3 persons as God and all of the references are from the Bible.

"The Word" is Jesus and he appears in John 1:1.

Oz
An assertion is not proof. I proved you are misappropriating John’s purpose for writing his Gospel.

Again, the Scriptural support for the trinity is so weak, trinitarians must rely on more ambiguous verses with full emotional investment, like John 1:1 and ignore explicit verses that undermine the trinity, such as 17:3 and 20:17, where Jesus admits he has a God and his God is the only true God.

In response, just ignore it and copy and paste ambiguous verses you prefer. ‘For us, there is one God, the Father;’ a more anti-trinitarian verse is hard to imagine. Why is only the Father explicitly identified as God if that is not true? (Absent from Scripture is ‘God the Son’ and ‘God, the Holy Spirit’. The most obvious reason is the authors of Scripture were monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day, I.e., there is no God but the Father).
 
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Pierac

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All very intersting and true, but you're not addressing my question "You seem to be implying that Jesus did not exist before he was born as a man, so how do you harmonise that with the following verses?"


John 8:58 (ASV):

(58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am. [I have been, or I have existed]​

Here's another couple of verses that imply that Jesus existed before his human birth:

John 8:42 (WEB):
(42) Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven’t come of myself, but he sent me.​
John 16:28 (WEB):
(28) I came from the Father, and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”​


Easy....peassy! Just ask a Jew!!!

Jewish “Ideal” Preexistence

In the English language, and certainly the way young people speak, we often speak about something that happened in the past as though it is happening in the present. For instance, a witness to a bank robbery might say, “And here I am standing in line minding my own business, when bursting through the door comes as a hooded bank robber. He tells us all to get on the floor. He waves his gun around and threatens us. Then he goes up to the teller and yells, ‘Give me the money!’” We understand the events described occurred in the past, even though the narrative is in the present. Speaking of past events in the present is a peculiarity of the English language.

Most languages have peculiarities. The Hebrew mind and language has a peculiarity that English speakers are not accustomed to. They do the opposite of what I have just described. They often use the past tense or the present tense to speak of events yet future. The reason is that the Jews believed that whatever was determined in the mind of God existed before it came to be in history. God is the God who calls the things which do not exist as (already) existing (Rom. 4:17). God promised Abraham that He would give him the promised land and that he would be the father of many descendents. So sure is the fulfillment that sometimes the predictive language is in the past tense, as though it were already accomplished: “To your descendents I “have given” this land” (Gen 15:18). It came to be a common feature of Hebrew thinking that whatever God had decreed already preexisted (in plan and purpose) before it materialized on earth. “When the Jews wished to designate something as predestined, he spoke of it as already existing in heaven.

Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ “was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times” for our sakes who believe in God's word (1Pet. 1:20). This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth, because in the same chapter we find that Christians have also been in the “foreknowledge of God the Father” (1Pet. 1:2). The words “foreknowledge” and “foreknown,” noun and verb, are exactly alike. Peter uses precisely the same idea to refer to both Christians and Jesus. Christians do not preexisted heaven before our birth on earth nor did Jesus.

Similarly, the Bible speaks of Jesus as the Lamb of God who was crucified before the world began (Rev.13:8). Every Bible reader of course knows that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate in Palestine in the first century. But God ordained his crucifixion to happen before he even created the universe. Therefore, in God's mind, and in the Hebrew understanding, that which came to be had already been. The prophetic future was spoken of in the past tense. What God has decreed, He says is as good as done.

In John 17, Jesus prays just before his arrest in the garden, “I glorify You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given me to do. And now, glorify me together with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” (v.4-5) If ever there was a statement that proved the personal preexistence of Jesus with the Father in heaven before he came to earth, surely this is it. Once again, we must caution against haste, for “In Biblical ways of speaking and thinking one may ‘have’ something which is promised in God's plan before one actually has its.” We have already seen this principle in operation, where God's plan of promises are spoken in the “prophetic past tense.” God promised Abraham, “I have given you this land.” God says to Christians, “You are seated with Christ in the heavenlies; you are already glorified (Eph. 2:6; Rom.8:30).

We have these things already in the plan and purpose of God -- even though we do not (yet) have them! Scripture tells us that we have eternal life as a present possession, even though clearly we await the day of our entrance into the life of the Age to come, whether by resurrection for those already dead, or the rapture of the living, when Christ returns. God calls the things that are not as though they already exist (Rom. 4:17). Clearly, in Hebrew thinking, the glory which Jesus had “with” God before the world was, it is the glory that it was present in God's mind and purpose from the beginning.


When we examine the rest of Jesus's prayer, it becomes quite clear that the glory Jesus claimed to have had “with the father before the world was” is a glory in prospect. Jesus is using the peculiar Hebrew way of thinking and speaking by which the past tense is employed to speak of the future. To confirm this all we need to do is follow Jesus’ prayer through. Jesus speaks as though he has already accomplished his work: he says I have “accomplished a work which you have gave me to do” (v.4). Quite obviously he has not actually finish the work because his crucifixion has not yet happened, and his cry from the cross, “It is finished,” has not yet been uttered. Next, Jesus speaks as though the disciples have already fully glorified him (through their preaching ministry) even though the resurrection has not yet happened: he prays, “I have been glorified in them” (v.10).


Jesus also says “I am no more in the world” (v.11) even though he clearly is still in the world. In his own mind, he is already, by faith in the father's promise, sitting in heaven having been resurrected. Jesus says he has already sent the disciples into the world to preach: he prays, “I have sent them into the world” (v.18), even though this did not fully happen until after the resurrection. Jesus prays for his disciples, and “for those also who[will] believed in me through their word” (v.20). That is, he prays for subsequent generations of Christians who will come to faith in Christ down the track. He prays that “the glory which You have given me I have given to them (v.22). He prays that all these believers “which you have given me” (the whole future community of faith) may behold my glory, which You have given me; for You did love [choose] me before the foundation of the world (v.24).

One day the Lord Jesus at his second coming will say to his own people, “Come, you who are blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matt 25:34). In Paul’s language this hope is “laid up for you in heaven” which means it is in God’s promise and plan and is certain of fulfillment (Col. 1:5). This hope is so certain that Paul can even speak of Christians as already glorified (Romans 8:29–30, noting the past tense). Indeed, this plan hatched in God’s mind “according to His own purpose in grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” (2 Tim 1:9). Dunn, in his book, Christology in the Making p238 adds: “The gift was purposed ‘ages ago,’ unless we are to take it that the actual giving and receiving, ‘us’ and ‘Christ Jesus’ were all alike preexistent.” This hope of Christians entering into the age to come was “promised long ages ago” (Tit 1:2). Dunn continues p238.

“Here it is even clearer that what is thought of as happening “ages ago” is God’s promise; and it is that promise of eternal life which has been manifested. Indeed, the text says it is his word that he has manifested - that is, not Christ the Logos, but the word of promise, fulfilled in Christ and offered now back in the kerygma [ message]. In other words, we are back where we started – Christ as the content of the word of preaching, the embodiment of the predetermined plan of salvation, the fulfillment of the divine purpose.”


How did you miss this keithr?
Paul
 
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Pierac

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He did not separate anything. Jesus humbled Himself and took the form of a servant, even though He was ~ always was, even now, and evermore shall be) in the form of God. Paul is very clear about this in Philippians 2.

Pay attention Pinseeker.... Your about to be shown how very much you follow the traditions of men!!!

Now to the second phrase in Philippians 2 that causes a difficulty. It is the one that says Jesus Christ "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself (v. 6-7). It is unfortunate that the Old King James version of the Bible translated this verse completely wrong. It reads that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal with God" and gives the impression that as the preexistent God, Jesus did not think there was anything wrong in being considered equal with God.
It ought to be clear by now that this is the exact opposite of what is meant. The whole context of the passage is about being humble, putting God's will and glory first, and serving others’ interest above one's own interest. Although he was in "the form of God" Jesus did not reckon his God-given status as something to be exploited.

This meaning contrast well with the conduct of Adam who unfortunately did consider equality with God anything to be grasped at. Adam wanted to be like God as Genesis 3:5 teaches. Adam tried to grasp at equality with God. But Jesus would not usurp God's authority for selfish advantage. He said, "I came to serve" (Matt. 20:28), not to snatch! At his arrest in the garden, he said, "Do you not think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels?" (Matthew 26:53). As the Messiah, God's appointed King, he had every right to call for divine protection. He "emptied himself" of all such Messianic privileges.

Therefore, it can be categorically stated that Philippians 2: 5-11 has nothing to do with Jesus Christ being God in a preexistence state. The importance is really very simple and very practical: how are Christians to conduct themselves in this world? Not by imitating the man Adam who forfeited everything by a grab for power and glory, but by imitating Jesus the Messiah (v.5) who through humility and obedience to God gained it all and more. After all, if Jesus was already God, then verses 9 to 11 are nonsensical. There is no "Therefore also God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth." If he was already God, he had this before his birth! No. It is clear that God has given him a new position, a new name (authority), and a new rank that he did not previously possess.

The Greek is very clear here: dio kai means (as in Luke 1:35) "for this reason precisely." Why has God exalted Jesus to His right hand? "Therefore, God has highly exalted him and given him the name above every other name because he is back where he was before as God"? Not at all! He is given the status as a reward for the precise reason that he humbled himself and died. His exalted status is a reward. If we follow the last Adam's pattern, we too will be exalted by God when Christ returns. It is evident, then, that "this hymn does not contained what numerous interpreters seek and find in it: an independent statement about preexistence or even a Christology preexistence… No preexistence of Christ before the world with an independent significance can be recognized even in Philippians 2.

This is the creed of ALL Orthodox Christian Beliefs! All of them!

DEFINITION OF THE COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (451 AD)

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.


So pay close attention.... The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both.


With out even knowing.... you just rejected the Trintiy!
Paul
 

keithr

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Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ “was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times” for our sakes who believe in God's word (1Pet. 1:20). This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth, because in the same chapter we find that Christians have also been in the “foreknowledge of God the Father” (1Pet. 1:2).
Jesus existed in heaven before God changed his nature to be human - John 6 (WEB):

(38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
(46) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father.
(51) I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

The passage that you refer to in your reply to Pinseeker, Philippians 2:5-8 (WEB), also supports the above:

(5) Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,
(6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.
(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.​

And you still haven't accounted for Hebrews 1:2,8,10 (WEB):

(2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.
(8) But of the Son he says, ...
(10) And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.

If Jesus didn't exist before he was made human, then how could he have, in the beginning, laid the foundations of the earth, made the worlds and created the heavens?
 
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PinSeeker

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Pay attention Pinseeker...
No, thanks; I've paid quite enough attention to your... stuff. :)

If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity.
Well I don't "subscribe to the Ke
notic Doctrine," Pierac. I never did and never will. Kenoticism teaches that the divinity of the Son of God was somehow lost or lessened when the Lord took on human flesh and entered our world, which is most assuredly not the case.

No, He "emptied Himself" ~ which is, in the Greek, κενόω, kenoō, which means to make o
f no reputation, be in vain, to make empty... figuratively speaking, to abase ~ precisely as Paul says in Philippians 2 (more on this below). Paul writes, "though He was in the form of God" and "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped." Everything Paul is saying here cannot, with any credibility whatsoever be construed any other way than that Jesus was always and will always be in possession of full divinity and equal with the Father. Indeed, as Paul writes to the Colossians, "in Him (Christ Jesus) all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."

Jesus existed in heaven before God changed his nature to be human - John 6 (WEB):
(38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
(46) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father.
(51) I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​
To this I would add at least one other:

"Thomas said to (Jesus), 'Lord, we don't know where you are going. How can we know the way?' Jesus said to (Thomas), 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, but by Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on, you know Him, and have seen Him.' Philip said to (Jesus), 'Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.' Jesus said to (Philip), "Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father." [John 14:8-9]

It is not possible to hear these verses ~ along with verses 46 and 51 cited above ~ and with any credibility somehow suppose that Jesus's Godly (deific) nature was changed into something entirely other than that, much less that this nature somehow vanished or ceased to be. What Paul says in Philippians 2 gives us even more insight:

"...Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." [Philippians 2:5-8]

Yes, Jesus undeniably existed in heaven before His first coming. But God did not "change His nature" in any sense. Paul says Jesus "emptied Himself" ~ so, whatever one supposes this emptying to be, it was not an action of the Father but of the Son.

Also, clarification regarding this what is meant by Jesus's not "count(ing) equality with God a thing to be grasped": 'Grasped' is translated from the Greek 'harpagmos' (from the root 'harpazo,' which means "to seize upon with force") means "anything snatched, clutched, embraced, or prized" and thus is translated “grasped” or “held onto” as a treasure is clutched and retained. Given this definition we can paraphrase this verse as, "Christ did not regard His equality with God as a treasure to be clutched and retained at all costs.” Jesus refused to selfishly cling to His favored position as the divine Son of God nor view it as a prized possession to be used for Himself, instead subjecting Himself to the Father in complete humility for our sake, which is exactly Paul's context in Philippians 2:5-8. His exhortation to us is to have this "same mind" among ourselves that Christ Jesus had among us, doing nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in complete humility counting others more significant than ourselves.
And you still haven't accounted for Hebrews 1:2,8,10 (WEB):

(2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.
(8) But of the Son he says, ...
(10) And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.

If Jesus didn't exist before he was made human, then how could he have, in the beginning, laid the foundations of the earth, made the worlds and created the heavens?
Well, not "made human," but took on flesh, took the form of a servant. Unless you clarify and say Jesus laid aside His equality with the Father. But sure. See above.

Grace and peace to you both.
 

DavidB

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No, thanks; I've paid quite enough attention to your... stuff. :)


Well I don't "subscribe to the Ke
notic Doctrine," Pierac. I never did and never will. Kenoticism teaches that the divinity of the Son of God was somehow lost or lessened when the Lord took on human flesh and entered our world, which is most assuredly not the case.

No, He "emptied Himself" ~ which is, in the Greek, κενόω, kenoō, which means to make o
f no reputation, be in vain, to make empty... figuratively speaking, to abase ~ precisely as Paul says in Philippians 2 (more on this below). Paul writes, "though He was in the form of God" and "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped." Everything Paul is saying here cannot, with any credibility whatsoever be construed any other way than that Jesus was always and will always be in possession of full divinity and equal with the Father. Indeed, as Paul writes to the Colossians, "in Him (Christ Jesus) all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."

To this I would add at least one other:

"Thomas said to (Jesus), 'Lord, we don't know where you are going. How can we know the way?' Jesus said to (Thomas), 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, but by Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on, you know Him, and have seen Him.' Philip said to (Jesus), 'Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.' Jesus said to (Philip), "Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father." [John 14:8-9]

It is not possible to hear these verses ~ along with verses 46 and 51 cited above ~ and with any credibility somehow suppose that Jesus's Godly (deific) nature was changed into something entirely other than that, much less that this nature somehow vanished or ceased to be. What Paul says in Philippians 2 gives us even more insight:

"...Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." [Philippians 2:5-8]

Yes, Jesus undeniably existed in heaven before His first coming. But God did not "change His nature" in any sense. Paul says Jesus "emptied Himself" ~ so, whatever one supposes this emptying to be, it was not an action of the Father but of the Son.

Also, clarification regarding this what is meant by Jesus's not "count(ing) equality with God a thing to be grasped": 'Grasped' is translated from the Greek 'harpagmos' (from the root 'harpazo,' which means "to seize upon with force") means "anything snatched, clutched, embraced, or prized" and thus is translated “grasped” or “held onto” as a treasure is clutched and retained. Given this definition we can paraphrase this verse as, "Christ did not regard His equality with God as a treasure to be clutched and retained at all costs.” Jesus refused to selfishly cling to His favored position as the divine Son of God nor view it as a prized possession to be used for Himself, instead subjecting Himself to the Father in complete humility for our sake, which is exactly Paul's context in Philippians 2:5-8. His exhortation to us is to have this "same mind" among ourselves that Christ Jesus had among us, doing nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in complete humility counting others more significant than ourselves.

Well, not "made human," but took on flesh, took the form of a servant. Unless you clarify and say Jesus laid aside His equality with the Father. But sure. See above.

Grace and peace to you both.
Here are 3 references for harpazo. None of them have anything to indicate “hold onto.” 2568AE3B-EF95-40FB-ACA4-DAEBFAF3AD2B.png2568AE3B-EF95-40FB-ACA4-DAEBFAF3AD2B.png 2568AE3B-EF95-40FB-ACA4-DAEBFAF3AD2B.png2568AE3B-EF95-40FB-ACA4-DAEBFAF3AD2B.png
 
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PinSeeker

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Here are 3 references for harpazo. None of them have anything to indicate “hold onto.”
Well, I do see "take by force" and "carry off" and "seize" in several instances (since you are into exact words). To not understand those phrases in the sense of holding onto or using would be unfortunate, because that would be consistent and in keeping with Paul's context in that Philippians 2 passage. As I said:

'Grasped' is translated from the Greek 'harpagmos' (from the root 'harpazo,' which means "to seize upon with force"). The Greek 'harpagmos', DavidB, means "anything snatched, clutched, embraced, or prized" and thus is translated “grasped” in some versions and “held onto” in others ~ both meaning the same things ~ as a treasure is clutched and retained. So again, Christ did not regard His equality with God as a treasure to be clutched and retained at all costs. Jesus refused to selfishly cling to His favored position as the divine Son of God nor view it as a prized possession to be used for Himself, instead subjecting Himself to the Father in complete humility for our sake, which is exactly Paul's context in Philippians 2:5-8. Thus Paul's exhortation to us is to have this "same mind" among ourselves that Christ Jesus had among us, doing nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in complete humility counting others more significant than ourselves.

But, hey, anybody can... hold on to (see what I did there?)... anything they want to. :) Hard-headed as it may be... :)

Grace and peace to you.
 

DavidB

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Well, I do see "take by force" and "carry off" and "seize" in several instances (since you are into exact words). To not understand those phrases in the sense of holding onto or using would be unfortunate, because that would be consistent and in keeping with Paul's context in that Philippians 2 passage. As I said:

'Grasped' is translated from the Greek 'harpagmos' (from the root 'harpazo,' which means "to seize upon with force"). The Greek 'harpagmos', DavidB, means "anything snatched, clutched, embraced, or prized" and thus is translated “grasped” in some versions and “held onto” in others ~ both meaning the same things ~ as a treasure is clutched and retained. So again, Christ did not regard His equality with God as a treasure to be clutched and retained at all costs. Jesus refused to selfishly cling to His favored position as the divine Son of God nor view it as a prized possession to be used for Himself, instead subjecting Himself to the Father in complete humility for our sake, which is exactly Paul's context in Philippians 2:5-8. Thus Paul's exhortation to us is to have this "same mind" among ourselves that Christ Jesus had among us, doing nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in complete humility counting others more significant than ourselves.

But, hey, anybody can... hold on to (see what I did there?)... anything they want to. :) Hard-headed as it may be... :)

Grace and peace to you.
Yes I admit, words are important to me. Truth and lies are both expressed in words. The words you apparently need to overlook are seize, snatch, rob, suddenly and decisively. Snatching or grasping something is done suddenly in a moment of time. It has nothing to do with whether or not that something is held onto or retained (as you have now added). Jesus didn’t consider equality with God something to hold onto. He humbly never considered trying to seize or snatch something (equality) that he didn’t possess. That would be robbery. That is the point of Philippians 2, that we should be humble like Jesus. Oh what a problem Philippians 2 is for trinitarians. Just like all the other verses they mangle. But you do have 1,600 years of tradition on your side.
 

tigger 2

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Well, I do see "take by force" and "carry off" and "seize" in several instances (since you are into exact words). To not understand those phrases in the sense of holding onto or using would be unfortunate, because that would be consistent and in keeping with Paul's context in that Philippians 2 passage. As I said:

'Grasped' is translated from the Greek 'harpagmos' (from the root 'harpazo,' which means "to seize upon with force"). The Greek 'harpagmos', DavidB, means "anything snatched, clutched, embraced, or prized" and thus is translated “grasped” in some versions and “held onto” in others ~ both meaning the same things ~ as a treasure is clutched and retained. So again, Christ did not regard His equality with God as a treasure to be clutched and retained at all costs. Jesus refused to selfishly cling to His favored position as the divine Son of God nor view it as a prized possession to be used for Himself, instead subjecting Himself to the Father in complete humility for our sake, which is exactly Paul's context in Philippians 2:5-8. Thus Paul's exhortation to us is to have this "same mind" among ourselves that Christ Jesus had among us, doing nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in complete humility counting others more significant than ourselves.

But, hey, anybody can... hold on to (see what I did there?)... anything they want to. :) Hard-headed as it may be... :)

Grace and peace to you.
..........................................................

There could be some doubt about the meaning of the word harpagmos if we looked only at the NT Greek Scriptures (since harpagmos occurs only at Phil. 2:6 in the entire New Testament). We would then only have the meaning of the source words for harpagmos to determine its intended meaning.

Even so, Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance (by trinitarian writer and trinitarian publisher) tells us that harpagmos means “plunder” and that it comes from the source word harpazo which means: “to seize ... catch away, pluck, take (by force).” - #725 & 726, Abingdon Press, 1974 printing.

“725 harpagmós – to seize, especially by an open display of force. See 726 (harpazō).” - HELPS Word-studies, copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

And the New American Standard Concordance of the Bible (also by trinitarians) tells us: “harpagmos; from [harpazo]; the act of seizing or the thing seized.” And, “harpazo ... to seize, catch up, snatch away.” Notice that all have to do with taking something away by force. - # 725 & #726, Holman Bible Publ., 1981.

In fact, the trinitarian The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 1967, pp. 436, 437, vol. III, tells us:

“We cannot find any passage where [harpazo] or any of its derivatives [which include harpagmos] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’ [as preferred in many trinitarian translations of Phil. 2:6]. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize’, ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense [‘snatch violently’] into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’”

Even the very trinitarian NT Greek expert, W. E. Vine, had to admit that harpagmos is “akin to harpazo, to seize, carry off by force.” - p. 887, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

And the trinitarian The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology tells us that the majority of Bible scholars (mostly trinitarian, of course)

“have taken harpagmos to mean a thing plundered or seized..., and so spoil, booty or a prize of war.” - p. 604, vol. 3, Zondervan, 1986.

The key to both these words (harpagmos and its source word, harpazo) is: taking something away from someone by force and against his will. And if we should find a euphemism such as “prize” used in a trinitarian Bible for harpagmos, it has to be understood only in the same sense as a pirate ship forcibly seizing another ship as its “prize”!

We can easily see this “taken by force” meaning in all the uses of harpazo (the source word for harpagmos) in the New Testament. But since harpagmos itself is used only at Phil. 2:6 in the NT, Bible scholars must go to the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (which is frequently quoted in the NT), the Septuagint.

In the Septuagint harpagmos (in its forms of harpagma and harpagmata) is used 16 times according to trinitarian Zondervan’s A Concordance of the Septuagint, p. 32, 1979 printing. And in every case its meaning is the taking of something away from someone by force. Here they are in the Bagster Septuagint as published by Zondervan: Lev. 6:4 “plunder;” Job 29:17 “spoil” (a “prize” taken by force); Ps. 61:10 (Ps. 62:10 in most modern Bibles) “robberies;” Is. 42:22 “prey;” Is. 61:8 “robberies;” Ezek. 18:7 “plunder;” Ezek. 18:12 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:16 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:18 “plunder;” Ezek. 19:3 “prey;” Ezek. 19:6 “take prey;” Ezek. 22:25 “seizing prey;” Ezek. 22:27 “get dishonest gain” (through the use of “harpazo” or “force”); Ezek. 22:29 “robbery;” Ezek. 33:15 “has robbed;” and Malachi 1:13 “torn victims” (compare ASV).

So, in spite of some trinitarians’ reasonings and euphemistic renderings, it is clear from the way it was always used in scripture that harpagmos means either taking something away by force (a verb), or something which has been taken by force (a noun).

Many trinitarian translators, however, either make nonsense out of the meaning of Phil. 2:6 by actually using the proper meaning of “robbery” or “taken by force” without showing God’s clear superiority over Jesus which the context demands, or, instead, making sense of it by choosing a word that doesn’t have the proper meaning of “taking by force.”

For example, the King James Version (KJV) does use “robbery” (a nearly-accurate meaning for harpagmos) but obviously mangles the meaning of the rest of the statement so that it doesn’t even make proper sense: “thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” This is a nonsensical statement even by itself. In context it is even more inappropriate!

Yes, as we have seen above (Phil. 2:3), even in the KJV it is apparent from context that the purpose of this example is to emphasize lowliness of mind, humility: to regard others as better than yourself (vv. 3-5). Paul certainly wouldn’t destroy this example of humility for fellow Christians by saying that Jesus is thinking that it isn’t robbery for him to be equal with the Most High! Besides being a nonsensical statement, it is just the opposite of humility! Instead, to be in harmony with the purpose of Paul’s example, we must find a Jesus who regards God as superior to himself and won’t give even a moment’s thought about attempting to take that most high position himself, but, instead, humbles himself even further.
 
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Wrangler

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(1Pet. 1:2). The words “foreknowledge” and “foreknown,” noun and verb, are exactly alike. Peter uses precisely the same idea to refer to both Christians and Jesus. Christians do not preexisted heaven before our birth on earth nor did Jesus.
Brilliant analysis. I look forward to Keith's response.
 

Pierac

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If Jesus didn't exist before he was made human, then how could he have, in the beginning, laid the foundations of the earth, made the worlds and created the heavens?

Because Jesus knew who did... and was sent to teach you... BUT you don't listen very well!!!

Let’s return to Genesis 1:26. It is reasonable to suggest then that God in some way took the angels into confidence with Himself when he created Adam? This is collaborated in Job 38:4, 7 where God says that when He laid the foundations of the earth "all the sons of God shouted for joy." The sons of God are of course the angels as Job 1:6 and 2:1 confirm. God's own testimony is that the work of creation, "the heavens," "the earth" and "all things" were His work alone. This fact is established right away at the very outset of Genesis 1 where we are first introduced to God (elohim) the Creator. It is also clear that when he came to create Adam and Eve he told the angels to watch in awe. In this way the heavenly hosts participated as spectators of the miracle of man's creation.

Now if you're still not convinced that the God of creation is one God and not three in one, here is our Lord Jesus own commentary on Genesis 1:26. He will settle this issue for us.

In Matthew 19:4 and Mark 13:19 Jesus tells us…

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

According to Jesus himself the creator God was not "We who made them from the beginning" but a single person He! Jesus does not include himself in the Genesis 1 creation of Adam, and He is also telling us that God (Father) Created all from the beginning.

The creator of the World would be the God that raised Jesus from the dead...

Act 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Did God raise Himself... or did God raise His servant.... Read it... then read it again!!!

Act 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."

Act 10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Act 13:30 "But God raised Him from the dead;

You don't have a clue do you?
Paul
 

PinSeeker

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..........................................................

There could be some doubt about the meaning of the word harpagmos if we looked only at the NT Greek Scriptures (since harpagmos occurs only at Phil. 2:6 in the entire New Testament). We would then only have the meaning of the source words for harpagmos to determine its intended meaning.

Even so, Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance (by trinitarian writer and trinitarian publisher) tells us that harpagmos means “plunder” and that it comes from the source word harpazo which means: “to seize ... catch away, pluck, take (by force).” - #725 & 726, Abingdon Press, 1974 printing.

“725 harpagmós – to seize, especially by an open display of force. See 726 (harpazō).” - HELPS Word-studies, copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

And the New American Standard Concordance of the Bible (also by trinitarians) tells us: “harpagmos; from [harpazo]; the act of seizing or the thing seized.” And, “harpazo ... to seize, catch up, snatch away.” Notice that all have to do with taking something away by force. - # 725 & #726, Holman Bible Publ., 1981.

In fact, the trinitarian The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 1967, pp. 436, 437, vol. III, tells us:

“We cannot find any passage where [harpazo] or any of its derivatives [which include harpagmos] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’ [as preferred in many trinitarian translations of Phil. 2:6]. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize’, ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense [‘snatch violently’] into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’”

Even the very trinitarian NT Greek expert, W. E. Vine, had to admit that harpagmos is “akin to harpazo, to seize, carry off by force.” - p. 887, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

And the trinitarian The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology tells us that the majority of Bible scholars (mostly trinitarian, of course)

“have taken harpagmos to mean a thing plundered or seized..., and so spoil, booty or a prize of war.” - p. 604, vol. 3, Zondervan, 1986.

The key to both these words (harpagmos and its source word, harpazo) is: taking something away from someone by force and against his will. And if we should find a euphemism such as “prize” used in a trinitarian Bible for harpagmos, it has to be understood only in the same sense as a pirate ship forcibly seizing another ship as its “prize”!

We can easily see this “taken by force” meaning in all the uses of harpazo (the source word for harpagmos) in the New Testament. But since harpagmos itself is used only at Phil. 2:6 in the NT, Bible scholars must go to the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (which is frequently quoted in the NT), the Septuagint.

In the Septuagint harpagmos (in its forms of harpagma and harpagmata) is used 16 times according to trinitarian Zondervan’s A Concordance of the Septuagint, p. 32, 1979 printing. And in every case its meaning is the taking of something away from someone by force. Here they are in the Bagster Septuagint as published by Zondervan: Lev. 6:4 “plunder;” Job 29:17 “spoil” (a “prize” taken by force); Ps. 61:10 (Ps. 62:10 in most modern Bibles) “robberies;” Is. 42:22 “prey;” Is. 61:8 “robberies;” Ezek. 18:7 “plunder;” Ezek. 18:12 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:16 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:18 “plunder;” Ezek. 19:3 “prey;” Ezek. 19:6 “take prey;” Ezek. 22:25 “seizing prey;” Ezek. 22:27 “get dishonest gain” (through the use of “harpazo” or “force”); Ezek. 22:29 “robbery;” Ezek. 33:15 “has robbed;” and Malachi 1:13 “torn victims” (compare ASV).

So, in spite of some trinitarians’ reasonings and euphemistic renderings, it is clear from the way it was always used in scripture that harpagmos means either taking something away by force (a verb), or something which has been taken by force (a noun).

Many trinitarian translators, however, either make nonsense out of the meaning of Phil. 2:6 by actually using the proper meaning of “robbery” or “taken by force” without showing God’s clear superiority over Jesus which the context demands, or, instead, making sense of it by choosing a word that doesn’t have the proper meaning of “taking by force.”

For example, the King James Version (KJV) does use “robbery” (a nearly-accurate meaning for harpagmos) but obviously mangles the meaning of the rest of the statement so that it doesn’t even make proper sense: “thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” This is a nonsensical statement even by itself. In context it is even more inappropriate!

Yes, as we have seen above (Phil. 2:3), even in the KJV it is apparent from context that the purpose of this example is to emphasize lowliness of mind, humility: to regard others as better than yourself (vv. 3-5). Paul certainly wouldn’t destroy this example of humility for fellow Christians by saying that Jesus is thinking that it isn’t robbery for him to be equal with the Most High! Besides being a nonsensical statement, it is just the opposite of humility! Instead, to be in harmony with the purpose of Paul’s example, we must find a Jesus who regards God as superior to himself and won’t give even a moment’s thought about attempting to take that most high position himself, but, instead, humbles himself even further.
It clearly does not mean, woodenly, "to steal Godhood away from the Father." To suppose that is quite ridiculous.

1.) In saying, "though he was in the form of God," Paul is clearly implying that He was already in the form of (morphe' in Greek; the thing itself, especially because he uses the same word, morphe' regarding Jesus in relation to man) God.

2.) In saying He "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped," Paul then clearly is saying He set aside equality with God for a time" ~ yes, did not take hold of it forcefully (or any other way) ~ even thought this equality with the Father was in His possession.

All of this is clearly used by Paul in the sense that, yes, he's not taking it forcefully and not then using it to His advantage ~ thereby setting it aside in complete submission to the Father's will ("yet not My will be done but Yours...") and taking on complete humility ~ "look(ing) not only to His own interests, but also to the interests of others, as Paul says, and even elevating others' interests far above His own ~ and becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. As Paul says in Ephesians 5, "Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word."

Even we, on a lesser scale, can all talk about things we don't take a hold of forcefully in the figurative sense and then use to our own personal advantage, though we certainly could. I, for example, don't use my position of authority as, say, the father of my children, as such ~ to my personal advantage ~ though I most certainly could. Because I am their father, and I could pull rank on them and even weaponize my fatherhood in many different ways, but I do not. I would hope no parent does that, but it does happen from time to time, unfortunately.

Yeah, you know, Jehovah's Witnesses love to talk about "trinitarian acrobatics," but believers in the triune Jehovah would bounce that right back at JWs ~ both in the acrobatics JWs engage in in interpreting Paul's statements themselves and in the acrobatics JWs engage in in twisting the trinitarian view into something it is not. So it goes, and so be it.

Grace and peace to you, Tigger.
 
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keithr

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Because Jesus knew who did... and was sent to teach you... BUT you don't listen very well!!!
Hebrews 1:2 clearly says that God made the worlds though His Son, or as the KJV translates it "by whom also he made the worlds". Verses 8-10 clearly show God saying that His Son, Jesus, "in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth" and that the heavens were the work of Jesus' hands. It could not be much clearer. To say that Jesus did not exist before his human life but that he knew who created the heavens and the earth, does not explain those verses. You are clearly not listening/reading/understanding what Paul wrote. He wrote that Jesus was God's agent who performed the creation. You've written a lot about agency in this thread so I know you understand that concept. For example, in post #456 you wrote:

To the Jewish mind, accustomed to Old Testament teaching on the principles of agency and representation by which God appoints a man to speak or act on his behalf, such a concept was both familiar and acceptable.

So why can't you accept that the Hebrews 1 account is a description of Jesus, in his pre-human form, acting as God's agent who performed the creation. Paul tells us why in Colossians 1 (WEB), talking of the Son of God's love (His most beloved Son):

(16) For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
(17) He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.
(18) He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Let’s return to Genesis 1:26. It is reasonable to suggest then that God in some way took the angels into confidence with Himself when he created Adam? This is collaborated in Job 38:4, 7 where God says that when He laid the foundations of the earth "all the sons of God shouted for joy." The sons of God are of course the angels as Job 1:6 and 2:1 confirm. God's own testimony is that the work of creation, "the heavens," "the earth" and "all things" were His work alone. This fact is established right away at the very outset of Genesis 1 where we are first introduced to God (elohim) the Creator. It is also clear that when he came to create Adam and Eve he told the angels to watch in awe. In this way the heavenly hosts participated as spectators of the miracle of man's creation.
And as Colossians 1:16 confirms, the angels were created by Jesus. Note what Geneses 1:26, that you referred to, says - “Let us make man in our image” - God was giving instructions to His agent in the creation - His Son Jesus.

Now if you're still not convinced that the God of creation is one God and not three in one, here is our Lord Jesus own commentary on Genesis 1:26. He will settle this issue for us.
I am convinced that God is one God and not three, or three in one. I have not argued against that - I don't believe in the Trinity! This is what Jesus said in Revelation 3:14 (WEB):

(14) “To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: “The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of God’s creation, says these things:
or as the TLV translates it, "the Originator of God’s creation".

Act 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Did God raise Himself... or did God raise His servant.... Read it... then read it again!!!
God raised His Son Jesus from death. I don't need to read it again - I agree with you. You're digressing again from the point I am addressing, that Jesus did exist before he lived as a human.

You don't have a clue do you?
I do have a clue. I have quoted several clues from the Bible for you, but you seem to ignore them or totally fail to understand them. You don't believe what the Bible teaches about Jesus.
 

PinSeeker

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Yes I admit, words are important to me.
Well, they're very important to anyone, regardless who they are or what they believe. Yes, words are very important to me, too. We can agree on that, at least. To suggest that words are not important to me or anyone else is quite ridiculous.

The words you apparently need to overlook are seize, snatch, rob, suddenly and decisively.
Not at all. See my response to Tigger above, although that's not the first time I've said what I said; I acknowledged them to you, too, if you remember.

Snatching or grasping something is done suddenly in a moment of time. It has nothing to do with whether or not that something is held onto or retained (as you have now added).
giphy.gif


Jesus didn’t consider equality with God something to hold onto.
Agreed.

He humbly never considered trying to seize or snatch something (equality) that he didn’t possess.
Ah, "that He didn't possess..." Now who's adding to Scripture, David? And even twisting it into something it is not? That would be you, my friend, As I said to Tigger above:

1.) In saying, "though he was in the form of God," Paul is clearly implying that He was already in the form of (morphe' in Greek; the thing itself, especially because he uses the same word, morphe' regarding Jesus in relation to man) God.

2.) In saying He "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped," Paul then clearly is saying He set aside equality with God for a time" ~ yes, did not take hold of it forcefully (or any other way), even seize it ~ even though, by clear implication, this equality with the Father was in His possession.

That would be robbery. That is the point of Philippians 2, that we should be humble like Jesus.
Well, we agree on Paul's point at least. :)

Oh what a problem Philippians 2 is for trinitarians.
Well, what Jehovah's Witnesses have twisted it into; yes, that is a problem. But it is what it is.

Just like all the other verses they mangle.
Jehovah's Witnesses. Yes.

But you do have 1,600 years of tradition on your side.
Ah yes, so people were in the dark about what Paul really said for 1800 years... LOL! My goodness.

Grace and peace to you, David.
 

DavidB

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..........................................................

There could be some doubt about the meaning of the word harpagmos if we looked only at the NT Greek Scriptures (since harpagmos occurs only at Phil. 2:6 in the entire New Testament). We would then only have the meaning of the source words for harpagmos to determine its intended meaning.

Even so, Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance (by trinitarian writer and trinitarian publisher) tells us that harpagmos means “plunder” and that it comes from the source word harpazo which means: “to seize ... catch away, pluck, take (by force).” - #725 & 726, Abingdon Press, 1974 printing.

“725 harpagmós – to seize, especially by an open display of force. See 726 (harpazō).” - HELPS Word-studies, copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

And the New American Standard Concordance of the Bible (also by trinitarians) tells us: “harpagmos; from [harpazo]; the act of seizing or the thing seized.” And, “harpazo ... to seize, catch up, snatch away.” Notice that all have to do with taking something away by force. - # 725 & #726, Holman Bible Publ., 1981.

In fact, the trinitarian The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 1967, pp. 436, 437, vol. III, tells us:

“We cannot find any passage where [harpazo] or any of its derivatives [which include harpagmos] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’ [as preferred in many trinitarian translations of Phil. 2:6]. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize’, ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense [‘snatch violently’] into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’”

Even the very trinitarian NT Greek expert, W. E. Vine, had to admit that harpagmos is “akin to harpazo, to seize, carry off by force.” - p. 887, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

And the trinitarian The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology tells us that the majority of Bible scholars (mostly trinitarian, of course)

“have taken harpagmos to mean a thing plundered or seized..., and so spoil, booty or a prize of war.” - p. 604, vol. 3, Zondervan, 1986.

The key to both these words (harpagmos and its source word, harpazo) is: taking something away from someone by force and against his will. And if we should find a euphemism such as “prize” used in a trinitarian Bible for harpagmos, it has to be understood only in the same sense as a pirate ship forcibly seizing another ship as its “prize”!

We can easily see this “taken by force” meaning in all the uses of harpazo (the source word for harpagmos) in the New Testament. But since harpagmos itself is used only at Phil. 2:6 in the NT, Bible scholars must go to the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (which is frequently quoted in the NT), the Septuagint.

In the Septuagint harpagmos (in its forms of harpagma and harpagmata) is used 16 times according to trinitarian Zondervan’s A Concordance of the Septuagint, p. 32, 1979 printing. And in every case its meaning is the taking of something away from someone by force. Here they are in the Bagster Septuagint as published by Zondervan: Lev. 6:4 “plunder;” Job 29:17 “spoil” (a “prize” taken by force); Ps. 61:10 (Ps. 62:10 in most modern Bibles) “robberies;” Is. 42:22 “prey;” Is. 61:8 “robberies;” Ezek. 18:7 “plunder;” Ezek. 18:12 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:16 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:18 “plunder;” Ezek. 19:3 “prey;” Ezek. 19:6 “take prey;” Ezek. 22:25 “seizing prey;” Ezek. 22:27 “get dishonest gain” (through the use of “harpazo” or “force”); Ezek. 22:29 “robbery;” Ezek. 33:15 “has robbed;” and Malachi 1:13 “torn victims” (compare ASV).

So, in spite of some trinitarians’ reasonings and euphemistic renderings, it is clear from the way it was always used in scripture that harpagmos means either taking something away by force (a verb), or something which has been taken by force (a noun).

Many trinitarian translators, however, either make nonsense out of the meaning of Phil. 2:6 by actually using the proper meaning of “robbery” or “taken by force” without showing God’s clear superiority over Jesus which the context demands, or, instead, making sense of it by choosing a word that doesn’t have the proper meaning of “taking by force.”

For example, the King James Version (KJV) does use “robbery” (a nearly-accurate meaning for harpagmos) but obviously mangles the meaning of the rest of the statement so that it doesn’t even make proper sense: “thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” This is a nonsensical statement even by itself. In context it is even more inappropriate!

Yes, as we have seen above (Phil. 2:3), even in the KJV it is apparent from context that the purpose of this example is to emphasize lowliness of mind, humility: to regard others as better than yourself (vv. 3-5). Paul certainly wouldn’t destroy this example of humility for fellow Christians by saying that Jesus is thinking that it isn’t robbery for him to be equal with the Most High! Besides being a nonsensical statement, it is just the opposite of humility! Instead, to be in harmony with the purpose of Paul’s example, we must find a Jesus who regards God as superior to himself and won’t give even a moment’s thought about attempting to take that most high position himself, but, instead, humbles himself even further.
Thanks once again for sharing your excellent research. Seeing how trinitarians have manipulated the few verses they use to support the doctrine deepens my faith that the Father is just who Jesus said he is - “the only true God.”
 

Wrangler

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1.) In saying, "though he was in the form of God," Paul is clearly implying that He was already in the form of (morphe' in Greek; the thing itself, especially because he uses the same word, morphe' regarding Jesus in relation to man) God.
Wow! Taking logic on its head. "In the form of" is the clue it is NOT what it is in the form of. For instance, my savings jar is in the form of a pig. That is how you know it is not a pig.

If it were a pig, one would clearly not use the words "In the form of." Instead, one would simply say that woman IS my wife. See the difference?
 
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Wrangler

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Thanks once again for sharing your excellent research. Seeing how trinitarians have manipulated the few verses they use to support the doctrine deepens my faith that the Father is just who Jesus said he is - “the only true God.”
It begs the question of why do trinitarians openly embrace anti-Christ theology, directly contradicting what he explicitly said? Why do they aim to make the simple and obvious into complicated and circumspect?

Every single Epistle explicitly tells us "God the Father." Every single one! There is not one verse that reads "God the Son" or God The Holy Spirit." Not one!

There is not one trinitarian verse in all of Scripture that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

May grace and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus, the Anointed One, surround you. First, I thank my God through Jesus the Anointed for all of you. Romans 1:7-8

I pray that God our Father and the Lord Jesus, the Anointed One, will shower you with grace and peace. 1 Cor 1:3

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
2 Corinthians 1:2

I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.
Galatians 1:1

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Ephesians 1:2

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philippians 1:2

May God our Father give you grace and peace. Colossians 1:2

We are writing to the church in Thessalonica, to you who belong to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 & 2 Thessalonians 1:1

May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord give you grace, mercy, and peace.1 & 2 Timothy 1:2

May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior give you grace and peace.
Titus 1:4

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philemon 1:3

For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus: “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.” God also said, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son. Hebrews 1:5

Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring. James 1:27

God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. 1 Peter 1:2

when he received honor and glory from God the Father. 2 Peter 1:17

We proclaim ... our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:3 (NOTE: Again no reference to the HS)

Grace, mercy, and peace, which come from God the Father. 2 John 1:3

He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. Revelation 1:6


 

Wrangler

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2.) In saying He "did NOT count equality with God a thing to be grasped," Paul then clearly is saying He set aside equality with God for a time"
Reading your doctrine into verses where it is absent. You have to do this because the Scriptural support for it is so weak.

Do you notice the word NOT? What Jesus did NOT do? Here is another legitimate take on this verse. Jesus was humble and did not repeat the Original Sin of being a man seeking to grasp becoming a God. Jesus did NOT even seek equality with God, who he says is greater than he is and knows more than he does.