Romans 12:3

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jiggyfly

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As God’s messenger, I give each of you this warning, be honest in your estimate of yourselves, measuring your value by how much faith God has given you.”

Romans 12:3 NLT


What is the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word warning? Danger is the first thing that comes to my mind. Webster’s dictionary says that to warn means “ to make aware of potential danger.” You may find it hard to believe that over estimating yourself can be dangerous but let me give you an example.

Have you ever seen anyone walk on their hands? With practice you may learn also. You may become very good at walking on your hands but your hands are not engineered to hold up under that kind of pressure like your feet. It’s a lot more difficult to keep your balance, to see where you are going, and if you lose balance there is no way to break your fall. When the hands try to take the place of the feet, they endanger themselves and jeopardize the safety of the whole body. No matter how good you get you still can not obtain a level of performance that compares to that of the feet. I’ve never seen anyone run on their hands.. In order for the body to function efficiently, it is crucial for each body part to know it’s limitations and perform within their boundaries. This is not evident in the body of Christ. I see one, two or maybe three trying to do it all. I don’t think that it is a result of a lack of co-operation from the other body parts either. I believe it’s a result of some not being honest in their self-estimation. This may not be true in every situation, but it is true in the majority of them. Maybe once upon a time it was impressive to see someone walk on their hands, but not anymore. I think it’s boring. I feel the same way when I see the body of Christ and only a selected few trying to do it all. BORING!!! To see an accomplished athlete perform, using the majority of his or her body parts is a very exciting thing to witness. I think the same is true concerning the body of Christ.

Paul said you are to measure your value by how much faith God has given you. We are not to measure our value by comparing ourselves with others. We must know our gift’s limitations. I believe there is way too much overshadowing in the body of Christ. In other words, too much showing off and it needs to stop! The King James version reads not to think more highly of yourself than you ought to think.

So let’s heed the warning. Let’s ask the Holy Spirit to help us obtain a correct estimate of ourselves. Discerning the limitations and boundaries of our gifts, and operate responsibly within them. When we act outside of our gift’s limitations what image does the body of Christ project? How many hands does it have? How many feet? How many heads? Let’s encourage one another to be content with our gifts and not to become jealous of each other’s gifts. When we begin to do this the body of Christ will be something to behold ( to stand in awe and look upon). I believe if we will do as Paul prescribed with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit, the body of Christ will project the image like a beautiful bride with movements so graceful that it will astound the world.
 

biggandyy

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My estimated value: zero.
My intrinsic value: zero.
My actual value: zero.
My potential value: zero.
My actualized value: zero.
My P/E ratio: zero.
My ROI: zero.

I am NOTHING except by the grace of God and the Blood of His Son, Jesus. Even then, I am still nothing until I submit to His will for my life. Even then I am still zero in and of myself. I am an insturment in the Maker's Hand. Formed for ignoble purposes from ignoble purposes.

The above is the only honest estimate any one of us can possibly make about ourselves.
 

Angelina

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Hey Andy!
I agree with both positions. We come to God with nothing and he uses us according to our willingness to be cleansed and used for the Masters service, sanctified and prepared for every good work 2 Timothy 2:20. Boasting about one's gifts can be a real problem, particularly when these gifts are used more publicly than others.

Believers need to remember that gifts are given by God...they were not earned nor were they distributed because he is a respecter of persons. He gave them out to individuals because he knows the plan he has for our lives and these gifts are needed for the salvation of souls...whether it is for equipping others for service or in ministry...his entire purpose is for the souls of the unsaved.

This is not evident in the body of Christ. I see one, two or maybe three trying to do it all. I don’t think that it is a result of a lack of co-operation from the other body parts either. I believe it’s a result of some not being honest in their self-estimation. This may not be true in every situation, but it is true in the majority of them.

Hi Jiggy!
I have often found that very few do most of the work in the body because they want to have a certain level of control on how things are administered...If believers just let others use their gifts in the body the way that God leads them [as long as it is in line with God] we would have an awesome, powerful, body ministry...working for the Kingdom of heaven, here on earth as we should.... :)

Blessings!!!
 

jiggyfly

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Hi Jiggy!
I have often found that very few do most of the work in the body because they want to have a certain level of control on how things are administered...If believers just let others use their gifts in the body the way that God leads them [as long as it is in line with God] we would have an awesome, powerful, body ministry...working for the Kingdom of heaven, here on earth as we should.... :)

Blessings!!!



Yes indeed, and in my experiences much of the problem comes from the man made clergy/laity concept.

My estimated value: zero.
My intrinsic value: zero.
My actual value: zero.
My potential value: zero.
My actualized value: zero.
My P/E ratio: zero.
My ROI: zero.

I am NOTHING except by the grace of God and the Blood of His Son, Jesus. Even then, I am still nothing until I submit to His will for my life. Even then I am still zero in and of myself. I am an insturment in the Maker's Hand. Formed for ignoble purposes from ignoble purposes.

The above is the only honest estimate any one of us can possibly make about ourselves.

Andy not sure but it seems by your post you have misunderstood my OP. Maybe the context isn't clear but it is about one's gifting and purpose related to the body of Christ. Would you care to discuss it?
 

biggandyy

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I try to steer clear of outright discussions on gifts since I am routinely called satan and unsaved when championing the biblical doctrine of cessationism.

----------You know I'm right.
 

jiggyfly

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I try to steer clear of outright discussions on gifts since I am routinely called satan and unsaved when championing the biblical doctrine of cessationism.

----------You know I'm right.

Ahh I see, so you'd rather state your opinion without the responsibility of supporting it. LOL. :)
 

Angelina

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Andy...I would support you on this one...if I were not walking in the power of the Holy Spirit who executes these gifts accordingly... ^_^

All Glory to God!!!
 

biggandyy

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If the power is from the Holy Spirit then what you have is a monegistic work of the Spirit, not a Spiritual Gift to be used solely at the discression and volition of the Christian.

A Spiritual Gift is given ONCE to the believer (at converstion) for the use BY the believer for the execution of their duties to the Body of Christ.

As we see Samson in the OT, the Spirit had to come over him for him to work his feats. If, in NT times, the Spirit must come over a believer for a feat to be performed then it is NOT a Spiritual Gift (as per the above definition) but a working of the Spirit through a particular person or believer.

I labor this point because it is crucial to understanding the doctrine of Cessationism vis a vie the current Church Age.
 

Angelina

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Hey Andy!
Andy...I would support you on this one...if I were not walking in the power of the Holy Spirit who executes these gifts accordingly...but I am. Every single day

Just clarifying what I am meaning... :)

Hebrews 2
[sup]1[/sup] We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. [sup]2[/sup] For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, [sup]3[/sup] how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. [sup]4[/sup] God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Bless ya!
 

biggandyy

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Just to clarify... you said:

if I were not walking in the power of the Holy Spirit who executes these gifts accordingly
(emphasis yours)

and the passage you quoted:

God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Execution and Distribution are two different concepts entirely. Besides, in your first line, if it is the Spirit that is executing the "gift", then it is no gift at all! Again, I labor the point, what you are describing is a monergistic work of the Spirit (monergistic means entirely of the Spirit and not of the person).

In your Hebrews quote there are two things in view, the validation of the Gospel (i.e. salvation through Christ) through signs and wonders, AND the distribution of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. The two concepts are related, but not in the way of validating "signs and wonders" as extant Spiritual Gifts.
 

Angelina

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Missing my point entirely... :)

Walking in the power of the HS....who executes these gifts accordingly. Yes...two different concepts.

A Spiritual Gift is given ONCE to the believer (at converstion) for the use BY the believer for the execution of their duties to the Body of Christ.

Many of the gifts the HS has given me have been received a long time after my conversion. The only gift that I believe I had was the gift of righteousness given to all believers at salvation and the gift of faith.

The Holy Spirit has given me many gifts as I walk on the path he has prepared for me. For instance, I do not believe that I have a ministry in healing but he has granted me the gift when someone in my sphere of influence needs healing. I lay hands on them or may just pray and they get healed. I do not use any of the gifts unless I ask God first, even though I have them available to do what is necessary. Jesus did not heal everyone he met. He did not heal the man who begged for alms at the temple gate called "Beautiful" even though he must of passed him many times. Peter did. Acts 3. Gifts although given [distributed] by the Holy Spirit are still subject to God and not ourselves...

Bless you!!!
 

biggandyy

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Then those times when you pray for those healings is not a Spiritual Gift being used! You are asking for intervention by the Holy Spirit. Look at the times Paul or Peter healed, they never failed, even once. They also took credit for that miracle. They performed it in the name of Christ, not the Holy Spirit.

----------You know I'm right.
 

jiggyfly

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Then those times when you pray for those healings is not a Spiritual Gift being used! You are asking for intervention by the Holy Spirit. Look at the times Paul or Peter healed, they never failed, even once. They also took credit for that miracle. They performed it in the name of Christ, not the Holy Spirit.

----------You know I'm right.

1 Peter and John went to the Temple one afternoon to take part in the three o’clock prayer service.2 As they approached the Temple, a man lame from birth was being carried in. Each day he was put beside the Temple gate, the one called the Beautiful Gate, so he could beg from the people going into the Temple.3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for some money.4 Peter and John looked at him intently, and Peter said, “Look at us!”5 The lame man looked at them eagerly, expecting some money.6 But Peter said, “I don’t have any silver or gold for you. But I’ll give you what I have. In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, get up and walk!”7 Then Peter took the lame man by the right hand and helped him up. And as he did, the man’s feet and ankles were instantly healed and strengthened.8 He jumped up, stood on his feet, and began to walk! Then, walking, leaping, and praising God, he went into the Temple with them
Acts 3:1-8 (NLT)


12 Peter saw his opportunity and addressed the crowd. “People of Israel,” he said, “what is so surprising about this? And why stare at us as though we had made this man walk by our own power or godliness?13 For it is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—the God of all our ancestors—who has brought glory to his servant Jesus by doing this. This is the same Jesus whom you handed over and rejected before Pilate, despite Pilate’s decision to release him.14 You rejected this holy, righteous one and instead demanded the release of a murderer.15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. And we are witnesses of this fact!16 “Through faith in the name of Jesus, this man was healed—and you know how crippled he was before. Faith in Jesus’ name has healed him before your very eyes
Acts 3:12-16 (NLT)

Gonna have to disagree BA, your statement about them taking credit for healing is simply not true. How about you post some scripture that supports your claim.
 

biggandyy

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You made my point in both your citations. They performed the miracle and then pointed to Christ, not the Holy Spirit or a Spiritual Gift they posessed. The Holy Spirit is nowhere in site in either of those citations. I will admit the credit I gave them for taking credit for the miracle was a tad over stated on my part (i.e. wrong) and I am thankful for the correction.

Back to the point; we spend so much time and many electrons playing around with lists of this and that we have no real idea what parameters are involved in declaring something to be an authentic Spiritual Gift given at regenration, or a monergistic work of the Holy Spirit through a believer, or merely a happy talent we have lent to the use of the Church executed through our own effort.

Until the Church can unify behind the technical definition of a Spiritual Gift it will never understand the benefits and wonder of true Spiritual Gifts given for the Church Age to enjoy and grow, even the lists given in Scripture become that much more meaningless unless we can understand them through a prism of reason and understanding.

BTW: when the ends of my messages show "------ You know I'm right" that is the sig line from my mobile device being added :)
 

Angelina

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...but Andy, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus :huh: and the Spirit of God, the Father.

John 7:37-40
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

Romans 8:9-11
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you,the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Galatians 4:6
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
 

jiggyfly

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Even more importantly, look at what Jesus says about HolySpirit.

But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.
John 14:26 (NLT)


5 “But now I am going away to the One who sent me, and not one of you is asking where I am going.6 Instead, you grieve because of what I’ve told you.7 But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Advocate won’t come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you.8 And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment.9 The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me.10 Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more.11 Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged.12 “There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now.13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.14 He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me.15 All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’

John 16:5-15 (NLT)

HolySpirit is the government in which the members of the body of Christ function within. Anything outside this government is simply unauthorized and of no value to this spiritual body. It is for this reason we have so much instruction within the new covenant scriptures to be led by HolySpirit in all we do.

4 There are different kinds of spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit is the source of them all.
1 Cor 12:4 (NLT)
11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.
1 Cor 12:11 (NLT)


Look at the prophecy given to Israel through Zechariah concerning God's temple, which was a shadow of what was to come.

6 Then he said to me, “This is what the Lord says to Zerubbabel: It is not by force nor by strength, but by my Spirit, says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
Zech 4:6 (NLT)
Now look at what Peter said about God's temple.

4 You are coming to Christ, who is the living cornerstone of God’s temple. He was rejected by people, but he was chosen by God for great honor.5 And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What’s more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God.6 As the Scriptures say,
“I am placing a cornerstone in Jerusalem, chosen for great honor, and anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”
1 Peter 2:4-6 (NLT)


See the connection? We are living stones, but how?

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ.5 It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own. Our qualification comes from God.6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:4-6 (NLT)

Here Paul tells us that HolySpirit gives us life, in other words making us living stones to be used by God in the building of His temple. So we can see what a big part Holyspirit has in God's plan and purpose concerning the body of Christ and in the making of materials for the construction of God's temple.
 

biggandyy

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HolySpirit is the government in which the members of the body of Christ function within. Anything outside this government is simply unauthorized and of no value to this spiritual body. It is for this reason we have so much instruction within the new covenant scriptures to be led by HolySpirit in all we do.

4 There are different kinds of spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit is the source of them all.
1 Cor 12:4 (NLT)
11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.
1 Cor 12:11 (NLT)


Here's the point I am trying to make and verse 4 seqway's into it so well. If I have the Gift of Administration, I don't have to entreat the Holy Spirit each and every time I want to file a folder into the file cabinet...


"Oh Lord, please allow me to remember the alphabet, and to correctly place this piece of paper in the correct folder in the correct drawer of the proper filing cabinet! In the name of Jesus I pray, Amen."

I know that sounds ridiculous, and it is. But that is the exact scenario you are claiming exists when one of the "signs and wonders" gifts is used. If I am praying to God for a healing and a person is healed was it my prayer? Ultimately, No. Was it my gift? No. Was it God? YES.

No one has the innate power to heal with a touch since the apostles time because no one has been granted that gift. There are those who claim it under the mantle of God's monergistic work, but that is stealing the glory from God altogether from a legitimate work of the Holy Spirit (NOT of the Christian). Others claim it maliciously to make a buck on television, and their condemnation is richly deserved in the next life.

All I'm saying is this; if it is the Holy Spirit, then give the Holy Spirit the credit, don't try to reserve some for ourselves under the misguided notion we have a gift of healing or prophesy or tongues. Unless you can do it when you want to do it, 100% of the time, you are treading in dangerous waters.
 

Axehead

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I thank God for His marvelous gift.

2Co_9:15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

Andyy, you are so right. We are big zeros.
 

stefen

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I could say in this way..!

We were zeroes, but now, Jesus washed us by His blood and made us as priests and prince / princess of His kingdom.

May God Bless.