Jim B
Well-Known Member
Having read many of your posts, I sincerely doubt that you're being truthful about attending college. Your English is so poor that it wouldn't even be acceptable in high school.
Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?
- Thread starter Kermos
- Start date
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Of course jim . of course you think this . But i aint a progressive . I DONT LIE to folks to seduce them .
I truly did attend college . SURE DID . NONE of that matters now .
That wisdom cannot save and it led me only farther and farther away from GOD
as i became more and more pride filled in my intellect . I only say that to try and help YOU jim .
YOU .
I did go to college , BUT WHO CARES . it dont matter .
AND IT SURE DONT matter that i had more education than anyone .
Those fishermen . THEY WERE UNEDUCATED JIM . BUT JESUS WAS WITH THEM
AND HE GAVE THEM THE MOUTH and KNOWLEDGE NEEEDED to speak and to say what NEEDED TO GET said .
TIME to abandon your hope in your so called education , JUST as i did mine .
IT has led you just as it led me , FAR from the true knowledge of GOD .
I say this out of great love for YOU JIM . Its not like i gotta keep on saying it . I ONLY said it for YOU .
Jim B
Well-Known Member
"I did go to college , BUT WHO CARES . it dont matter .
AND IT SURE DONT matter that i had more education than anyone ."
Did you major in English?
BTW, I don't "hope" in my education (whatever that means), but I am certainly not ashamed of it. Because of my intelligence (99th percentile) and my Master's degree, I had a very successful career until I retired.
I didn't "hope" in my education. I used it to work hard, advance to the top of my field and provide for my family. I was "in Christ" the entire time, which was a main factor in my success. He truly blessed me in my profession and with a loving family.
Yeah, it sure sounds like you have "a great love for me". Read your post again and show me where or how you have expressed love.
Your son example shows that son willing to rape his sister; on the other hand, if that son was unwilling to rape his sister, then that son would not rape his sister.
You are clearly confusing "will" against "want", so your confusion is endemic to your post.
Your example is very macabre! Where are you (rhetorical)?
No place in Scripture states that man was imparted a free-will, so you "are abusing and mishandling Romans 8:20 to justify your wrong interpretation of Adam's sin" (to quote you) as having "free will involved" (to quote you again).
When you wrote "Adam as I already said sinned willingly" then you contradict the Apostle Paul who wrote "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now" (Romans 8:20-22).
The mountains of the creation are NOT "the children of God" mentioned in Romans 8:21; therefore, Paul is referring specifically to persons with the word "creature" in Romans 8:20-22.
The only part of creation that had a commandment was Adam as recorded in Genesis 2:16-17; therefore, the trees are not mentioned in reference to "not willingly" in Romans 8:20.
As Paul wrote in Romans 8:20-22, Adam did not willingly eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil subjecting to vanity.
Now, as God had me convey previously:
God Declares The Cause And Effect For Adam Eating Of The Forbidden Tree
After Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), to Adam, God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:17-19)The word "because" inherently indicates cause in (Genesis 3:17), and the word "because" is the first word that God said to Adam in Genesis 3:17-19.
God declares the cause as being that Adam listened to the voice of his wife.
God LITERALLY stated that the CAUSE was Adam LISTENED to Adam's wife's voice; moveover, free will choice is NOT included as a CAUSE; therefore, the Apostle Paul's conveyance that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree (Romans 8:20) is in accord with the recorded Word of God in Genesis 3:17 (This sidebar examines Paul's writing in Romans 8:20-22 as related to the creating account in Genesis chapters 1 to 3).
God declares the effect as being that the ground would be cursed because of Adam as well as to dust Adam would return.
Nonetheless, your "Unwilling is still a choice" is proved deception because the cause of Adam eating of the tree was that Adam listened to Eve (Genesis 3:17) - Adam did it not willed to do it, so Adam's will is not the cause (Romans 8:20-22), AND GOD IS CERTAINLY NOT THE CAUSE OF ADAM EATING OF THE TREE FORBIDDEN AS FOOD (SEE GENESIS 3:17 FOR THE CAUSE).
The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
Instead of proceeding with your recent posts, let's continue from where we previously left off.
Only persons with God given and controlled belief (faith) are forgiven because the Giver of the Faith, the Christ of us Christians, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), and God is immeasurably loving to save a single person from the wrath of God by Way of causing one Christian to believe in Jesus, but you contradict even demean Jesus with your thoughts expressed in your post.
Your Free-willian Philosophy of "John 3:16. The 'world' is everyone" is against Christ, and the Truth (John 14:6) about the word "world" in John 3:16 is explained in the following.
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16).
Lord Jesus brings in history by way of mentioning "the serpent in the wilderness" John 3:14), so here is the contextually linked passage about history:
Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9).
Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14) and the results of the "bronze serpent" that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".
Furthermore, there is a different population of persons which includes persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness".
Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16) with the first "population of bitten look to live" and there was the second "population of everyone else".
In the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).
The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus, so only persons in whom God imparts "belief in Jesus" are the "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 for thus says the Lord "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29),
A more descriptive discourse is found here in this page link.
The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
Only persons with God given and controlled belief (faith) are forgiven because the Giver of the Faith, the Christ of us Christians, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), and God is immeasurably loving to save a single person from the wrath of God by Way of causing one Christian to believe in Jesus, but you contradict even demean Jesus with your thoughts expressed in your post.
Your Free-willian Philosophy of "John 3:16. The 'world' is everyone" is against Christ, and the Truth (John 14:6) about the word "world" in John 3:16 is explained in the following.
An Abbreviated Discourse About The Word "World" in John 3:16 (John 3:14-16)
The first word of John 3:16 is a conjunction that inextricably ties John 3:14-15 to John 3:16, and here are the Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16).
Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9).
Furthermore, there is a different population of persons which includes persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness".
Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16) with the first "population of bitten look to live" and there was the second "population of everyone else".
In the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).
- Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).
- Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every one" (John 3:16, note that the singular (not plural) Greek word pas [Strong's 3956] translates accurately as "every one" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous connotation of "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).
- Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).
- Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).
The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus, so only persons in whom God imparts "belief in Jesus" are the "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 for thus says the Lord "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29),
A more descriptive discourse is found here in this page link.
The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
The "will" is the facility within a person to make choices, but @Titus, you confusedly reverse the definition when you wrote "Unwilling is still a choice" (proof link) in your vain attempt to "prove" that a person's choice drives the person's "will" - your thoughts are backwards about "will" and "choice".
You elicit several more counts of confusion about the creation account:
"God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
This post applies to you @Johann since you Like Titus' posts, and this post serves as a recap.
The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
You elicit several more counts of confusion about the creation account:
- You hold contradictory thoughts as being true simultaneously in your mind, your thoughts which oppose each other are:
- In a prior post of yours, you wrote:
- In another post of yours, you wrote:
- In a prior post of yours, you wrote:
- When you wrote "Paul is speaking here figuratively not literally. Creature is not Adam but creation itself" (proof link) about Romans 8:20-22, then you confusedly conveyed that you think the mountains of creation share a "will" (see "not willingly" in Romans 8:20) as well as the trees of creation can become the children of God (see "the children of God" in Romans 8:21), yet I proclaim to you that Paul certainly constrains "creation" or "creature" in Romans 8:20-21 to persons.
- You clearly confuse "unwilling" versus "unwanted", so your confusion is endemic to your writings. Your example of that son raping his sister shows he was willing to rape his sister, but he performed his unwanted action of raping his sister because he thought it would save his mother from being shot by the assailant (proof link).
- You confuse "unwilling" and "not willing". You confusedly mix "unwilling" in your illegal semantic and self-contradictory sense of a person doing something against the person's will (see your example of the South African woman (proof link)) contrasted with "not willingly" in the definitive sense of a person doing something not based upon the person's will (see God's Word in Genesis 3:17 and the Apostle Paul's writing in Romans 8:20-23). In Romans 8:20-22, "not willingly" means not of the will, and choice is of the will; therefore, Adam not of his will ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil according to the Word of God (Genesis 3:17), so Adam did not choose to eat of the tree forbidden as food (Romans 8:20-22)!.
"God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
This post applies to you @Johann since you Like Titus' posts, and this post serves as a recap.
The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Strange. I have free will. I make choices about everything I do.
Johann
Well-Known Member
@Kermos -brother, don't troll me re the topic on freewill.
You work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
I will work out my salvation with fear and trembling-I don't work on yours-you don't work on mine.
There is enough bickering going on on this Forum, not healthy.
I understand you want to correct me, but I don't hold to Calvin and the "Bondage of the will" by Luther.
Thanks
Johann.
I've already proven you are using strawman arguments to try and discredit me Kermos in post # 1860
You are proving you dont understand what you are teaching.
He did not rape his sister willingly!!!!
Kermos you are a very confused man!
Definition of unwilling: loath, reluctant, obstinate
Synonyms: coerced, forced, involuntary, unintentional
You are the one confused by word definition not me Kermos!
You are the one who does not understand the meaning of unwilling Kermos.
You need help with word definition not me.
For anyone interested in this discussion I ask you pay attention to how a theology that has illogical reasoning leads to those who believe this theology into illogical reasoning.
Calvinism has caused Kermos to say and believe things that is so illogical it is insane.
Insane definition: unable to think in a clear or sensible way.
Above Kermos reinforces his illogical belief that Adam did not have freewill to commit sin.
Below Kermos again says Adam's will is not the cause of his sin.
According to Kermos Adam had no will to eat the fruit.
Definition of will: the power to control ones actions
Also means: choose, desire, crave, covet
If Kermos is correct then Adam is not responsible for his eating of the fruit.
Yet Kermos charges him as guilty for eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam has no freewill he cannot be guilty for his actions but Kermos has lost his ability to reason rationally because of his indoctrination into calvinism.
Now listen to Kermos explain who is to blame for Adam's sin below,
Many who have wives understand what the meaning of listened is conveying.
How many times has a wife been upset with her husband and said: "You are not listening to me"
Was it physically and mentally possible for Adam to have not listened to his wife?
According to Kermos Adam has no freewill. So in Kermos' illogical religion no he could not have not listened to his wife. Adam made no choice to eat of the fruit.
This is not sound reasoning but insanity.
Kermos teaches God is not the cause for Adam's sin
Kermos teaches Adam is not the cause for his sin
Kermos teaches Eve is the cause of Adam's sin
???
Think about that. Then tell me that is not nonsensical Goobdygook!!!!
Question: do you have no freewill choice to listen to your wife?
Or
Is it logically sound to have freewill to listen to your wife or not listen to your wife.
ATTENTION:
If your wife ever tells you to do something illegal and you listen to her and do it.
Then you get caught.
Dont worry,
Just use the logic of calvinist's.
Tell the judge about Adam how he did not willingly commit sin(broke law)
Your defense will be: "I listened to my wife she was deceived not me. I was not willing in any way to commit the crime"
If the judge is sane. He will tell you, you listened to your wife, therefore you willingly went along with the crime commited. You could have chosen not to listen to your wife because of a thing called freewill!
Kermos puts the blame on Eve yet says Adam was guilty even though he did not do it willingly.
That is so irrational it is insanity.
Adam listened to his wife(1st choice of Adam)
Adam took the fruit with his hand(second choice of Adam)
Adam put the fruit in his mouth(3rd choice of Adam)
Adam swallowed the fruit(could have stopped, changed his mind and spit it out but no freewill according to Kermos)
All Adams choices were not choices according to Kermos because Adam has no freewill.
But Adam is guilty, lol!
Adam listened to his wife unwillingly, Kermos' thinking
Adam took the fruit in his hand unwillingly, Kermos' thinking
Adam chewed the fruit and swallowed it unwillingly, kermos'thinking.
You see how beliefs can make you become insane?
BE VERY CAREFULL WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE YOU MIGHT END UP UNABLE TO REASON RATIONALLY!
Genesis 3:11-12,
- And God said who told you that you were naked have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat
- Then the man said, the woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate
God charged Adam because Adam is gulity for choosing to eat.
If Adam did not choose and ate unwillingly as Kermos claims, then Adam cannot be blamed. It was not Adam's choice.
If Eve was the cause only and Adam was completely unwilling because according to Kermos he has no freewill.
Then was Eve willing herself or unwilling to eat? She also has no freewill according to Kermos.
According to Kermos satan would be the cause for Eve's sin.
So using Kermos' calvinist logic,
Ladies if you ever commit a crime just use calvinist reasoning and tell the judge:
I have no freewill the devil made me do it, he is the cause of my sin, law breaking.
See how that reasoning holds up in the real world!
I graduated from college before I received the Holy Spirit and really began to serve God. In order to really serve God I really did have to unlearn much that I learned in college. This may not be true for everyone, but it certainly was true for me.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
We keep it simple my friend . POINT TO CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED . Remind as did the early church
that one must BELIEVE ON CHRIST JESUS . And remind what happens to those who dont .
Keep it simple . All this free will and non free will stuff aint helping .
THE ONE THING NEEDED to be saved , IS TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST . Now how simple is that .
GOD is gonna do as HE does . And so long as we Give him the GLORY the CREDIT for having saving us , AMEN .
GOD does as HE DOES . but the message remains the same .
Paul , peter , john and others did not go to the unbelieving and try and teach free will or non free will .
THEY PREACHED the ONLY NAME that COULD SAVE . AMEN
Jim B
Well-Known Member
I found that what I learned in college allowed me to have a wonderful career. I didn't have to unlearn anything. In fact, just the opposite. And I attended Bible school in my church full time for a full year. My extensive education gave me the ability to a) read the Bible with greater understanding and b) clearly understand what others were communicating, and c) to teach others, both in the university and in church.
The Holy Spirit guided me all through college and my career. Without His guidance I don't know how I would have been so successful in my career and my life. As an example, I was the technical director of a cutting-edge research lab and yesterday my wife and I celebrated our 54th anniversary. In addition, I served as an elder in my church for several years. God has truly blessed me!
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Johann
Well-Known Member
I agree-but my prayer is that God will raise up genuine apologists-I am watching debates on the fundamental doctrines from rabbis and Imams-Dr. White-Lloyd and many more for years now, honing me to rightly cutting straight the word of God by and in the Holy Spirit.
Notice the disagreements on the basic fundamentals-from people who claim to have a gift of teaching.
1 Corinthians 3:1-2
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
Hebrews 5:12-14
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Ephesians 4:14
that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
Ephesians 4:16
from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
The preaching of the Cross and resurrection of Christ Jesus is Imperative-but what about the doctrines as it stands written?
What are we to preach and teach in a few sentences? Anything longer and there is a lack of concentration-too LONG!
This is what I'm talking about-Calvinism is putting fear into people-yes?
Shalom brother.
Johann.
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Different people often do have different experiences. I am glad you consider your secular education so favorable to you.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Oh i agree , dont follow calvinism and you sure can speak against the evils of it .
So march on my friend .
Adam was the only creature with a prohibition command with a contingent punishment for violation (Genesis 2:16-17), not the birds of the air (Genesis 1:20-22), so the birds as part of creation could not subject the creation to futility which shows your confusion that Paul referred to "creation" as a whole instead of Adam as "creature" in Romans 8:20-22 (see where you wrote "Paul is speaking here figuratively not literally. Creature is not Adam but creation itself" in proof link), so only man could do the deed of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil leading to punishment, and Adam not of his will ate of the tree forbidden as food for the Word of God clearly declares that the cause of Adam eating of the tree was Adam listened to Eve (Genesis 3:17).
No place in Scripture states that man's created with a free will to choose toward God; therefore, you are adding free will to choose toward God into the scripture.
You illegally and illegitimately redefine words as is demonstrated in this post, and you fail to justify your changes that break Scripture (and "the Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35)).
This is Spiritual Truth (John 14:6), yet what you post, what you call "reasoning holds up in the real world", is confusion according to Spiritual Truth (John 14:6)!
You elicit several more counts of confusion about the creation account:
- The "will" is the facility within a person to make choices, but you confusedly reverse the definition when you wrote "Unwilling is still a choice" (proof link) in your vain attempt to "prove" that a person's choice drives the person's "will" - your thoughts are backwards about "will" and "choice".
- You hold contradictory thoughts as being true simultaneously in your mind, your thoughts which oppose each other are:
- In a prior post of yours, you wrote:
- In another post of yours, you wrote:
- In a prior post of yours, you wrote:
- When you wrote "Paul is speaking here figuratively not literally. Creature is not Adam but creation itself" (proof link) about Romans 8:20-22, then you confusedly conveyed that you think the mountains of creation share a "will" (see "not willingly" in Romans 8:20) as well as the trees of creation can become the children of God (see "the children of God" in Romans 8:21), yet I proclaim to you that Paul certainly constrains "creation" or "creature" in Romans 8:20-21 to persons.
- You clearly confuse "unwilling" versus "unwanted", so your confusion is endemic to your writings. Your example of that son raping his sister shows he was willing to rape his sister, but he performed his unwanted action of raping his sister because he thought it would save his mother from being shot by the assailant (proof link).
- You confuse "unwilling" and "not willing". You confusedly mix "unwilling" in your illegal semantic and self-contradictory sense of a person doing something against the person's will (see your example of the South African woman (proof link)) contrasted with "not willingly" in the definitive sense of a person doing something not based upon the person's will (see God's Word in Genesis 3:17 and the Apostle Paul's writing in Romans 8:20-23). In Romans 8:20-22, "not willingly" means not of the will, and choice is of the will; therefore, Adam not of his will ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil according to the Word of God (Genesis 3:17), so Adam did not choose to eat of the tree forbidden as food (Romans 8:20-22)!.
You wrote:
You are proving you dont understand what you are teaching.
He did not rape his sister willingly!!!!
Kermos you are a very confused man!
Definition of unwilling: loath, reluctant, obstinate
Synonyms: coerced, forced, involuntary, unintentional
You are the one confused by word definition not me Kermos!
Look at the synonyms for "unwilling" and see "forced", yet you wrote "YOU CANNOT FORCE ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING AGAINST THEIR WILL" (proof link); therefore, you have a self contradiction with respect to your example of that son who raped his sister because that son either (1) was forced to rape his sister or (2) willingly raped his sister. But as your thoughts stand right not, you hold contradictory thoughts as being true in your mind which is confusion.
"God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
God has me proclaim this Truth (John 14:6) to you @Johann since you Like Titus' posts.
The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
It's strange that you wrote that because your last two sentences have exceptions as shown below.
The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God
Many people preach that God has a free-will.The common free-willian refrain is along the lines of "God has freewill. Christ has freewill. Man was made in their image/likeness. Result? = Man has free will." (an actual free-willian quote).
So, the free-willian philosophy holds that God free-will chooses to change between good and evil, and, since God created man in God's image according to God's likeness (Genesis 1:26), then man does precisely the same as God; therefore, man free-will chooses to change between good and evil.
A Will Requires A Host
First, the definition of free must be considered.Free denotes:
- of autonomy:
- (noun) no constraint, uncontrolled, liberty, not enslaved, emancipation.
- (verb) disentangled, extricate, untangle.
- of property:
- (noun) complimentary, without charge, gratis, no payment required.
- (verb) give away, sacrifice.
The word "free" represents a relative concept, as shown in the following paragraph; in other words, a person is "free" from "something".
A person in a constitutional republic, such as the U.S.A., is free to start a business (free from being captives of the tyranny of the King of Great Britain per the U.S. Declaration of Independence), but a person in a communist country, such as North Korea, is NOT free to start a business (communist citizens are captives (owned) by their government).
Second, the definition of free-will must be considered.
Free-will: an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.
Next, considering "will", a will exists not in a vacuum; in other words, a will must be part of a host.
Respecting an unsaved person - the default first condition of every person, since a host (person) is required to host a will, then the person's will is part of the person's self, so the person's will is self-will because the person'a will is attached to the self-same person; on the other hand, the person's will is not free floating detached from the person, so the person's will is not free-will.
The Apostle proclaims a person's will is either one of but not both of:
- a person's will is controlled by God with "God having purified your souls in the obedience of the Truth through the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:21-22) and "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
- a person's will is controlled by man with "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
While the unrighteous unbelievers daringly revel in their own glory founded in their self-willed "I chose Jesus" (2 Peter 2:9-10) thus their hearts steal King Jesus Christ's glory, on the other hand, we righteousness of God in Christ believers worship the Glorious One (2 Corinthians 5:21) who sovereignly chose us (John 15:16, John 15:19 includes salvation).
Thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other" (Isaiah 42:8), yet the free-willians try to steal God's exclusive glory in the salvation of man.
God's Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host, yet a host is required for an associated will to exist; therefore, the Will of God is God's Will. See God's Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15.
NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.
God is unchangingly good (Malachi 3:6, Psalm 107:1) for the Word of God says "no one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so God is exclusively good all the time while at the same time God never changes to being evil.
In effect, free-willian philosophy includes that God imparted God-like free-will into man, and it is established that man free-will chooses between being good and being evil according to man's God-like free-will; therefore, God's free-will results in God fluctuating between good and evil because man's God-like free-will fluctuates between good and evil, so God changes to being evil by free-willian philosophers preaching that God has free-will.
THE RESULT, MAN CANNOT HAVE A GOD-LIKE FREE-WILL BECAUSE GOD CANNOT HAVE A FREE-WILL.
NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.
Free-will philosophy includes the man generated foundation that, by free-will, man can choose to be evil or good, even the ability for a natural man to free-will choose Jesus Christ unto the good of saving himself from the wrath of God.
The Word of God declares that you cannot make a choice to follow Jesus (see your last sentence of your post, @RLT63) because the Christ of us Christians says:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people, not man choosing God, but truly God choosing man.
- "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the glorious blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).
Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).
As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).
RLT63
Well-Known Member
That's a lot of the Holy Writ for you to call "nonsense" aka foolishness. "A natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).
There is no mention of free-will in your cited text, as shown in the following:
For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want, but if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good for I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin; therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus for the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death for what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
(Romans 7:19-25 and Romans 8:1-4)
In Truth (John 14:6[, the Apostle Paul attributes the fulfillment of the Law in us Christians is accomplished by the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (see Romans 8:4).
The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
Since the prior post addressed your wrong application of Romans 7:19 -25 as being proof of man's free-will, then it is now time to show even further that free-will is a nonsensical misnomer.
No Will is Free Because Every Will Is Attached To A Being
Let's examine the free-willian dearly held faith that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" as compared to linguistics, logic, and Scripture in Truth (John 14:6).
Free-willians abstract (compartmentalize) at two different levels when free-willians think "my free-will is uncontrolled by God".
God is a Being.
You are a being.
A "will" is not a being.
A "will" is part of a being, and a "will" does not exist without a being.
Let's look at free-willian's dearly held belief that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" from a related perspective, "this being's free-will is uncontrolled by that Being".
Free-willian foundation is the relationship that a "will" is "free" from a "being", and the relationship succeeds logically and linguistically only by including that a "will" is "free" from every "being"; therefore, that "will" must be free from the "Being" (God) as well as that "will" free from the "being" (the free-willian) as well as that "will" free from every other "being", yet a "will" must be part of a "being" resulting in a controlling relationship between the "being" and the being's "will", so the concept of a "will" free from a "being" is illogical.
The free-willian's level of abstraction fails because free-willians have grouped "will" at the same level as the group of "beings", so free-willians are comparing unrelated things, that is, a "will" and a "being"; in other words, free-willian's faulty premise results in a sinfully false conclusion.
The word "free" means "a something detached from an other something", but free-willians redefine "free" to mean "a something detached from that something's self"; therefore, free-willian's linguistics are illegal.
No Scripture states that God imparted man a free-will, in fact, the single occurrence of free-will in the New Testament is where the Apostle Paul refers to free-will as illusory (Philemon 1:14).
Now, a free-willian's "will" is not free from all beings because the free-willian's "will" is part of himself or herself. See the word "self" in the words "himself" and "herself", and "self" is key because by definition free-willians have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) per the free-willian's own proclamation that the free-willian "will" is uncontrolled by God, and, here, in Scripture, we find that free-willians are out of accord with Apostolic testimony.
In Truth (John 14:6), we Christian's have a "will" controlled by the Christ of us Christians for it is written "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
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