The Four Stages of Mankind's Redemption:

Keraz said:

Usually called Communion. A celebration of our Lords sacrifice for us.

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Christ called it His New Covenant. We can't celebrate it unless we've received it.

Christ gave it to His disciples and they received it.

He gives it to us and we receive it, when we accept Him and His Gift of Salvation.

No waiting required.

Keraz said:

Quite right,
But we were discussing the new Covenant, which is a different thing to Salvation.

Ezekiel 37:26 I shall make a new Covenant with My peoples, to ensure their peace and prosperity......

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Did Jesus' disciples experience both His Salvation and His New Covenant?

Did they have to wait for the Holy Land?

Keraz said:

Obviously the new Covenant between Jesus and His peoples, is not in effect yet.

More obviously; the Christian peoples -Jew and from every tribe, race, nation and language; ARE the true Israelites of God.

Furthermore; there will be a Millennium reign of Jesus. His Reward from God.

In addition; the Christian peoples in the holy Land, soon after the Lord clears and cleanses all that area, will build a new Temple and make sacrifices and offerings in it.

These truths are absolutely provable from the Bible. Any ideas, theories, or doctrines that contradict them, are false teachings from the pit of hell.

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All these are provable except that Christians are the true Israelites of God. that comes from a mis-translation of Galatians 6

Spiritual Israelite said:

If scripture says that something has already been fulfilled, such as Jesus putting the new covenant into effect with His shed blood while at the same time making the old covenant and animal sacrifices obsolete forever, that should be our starting point. Whatever the passage means, it can't be talking about something happening in the future because that would contradict Hebrews 10.

You say these supposed future animal sacrifices would not be to remove or cover sin? Are you unaware that the animal sacrifices done in relation to the feast of tabernacles, which you say will be kept again in the future, were done to temporarily remove and cover sin?

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So you say the new covenant is fulfilled. Please show when the provisions of the covenant were fulfilled.

Once again here is the entire old covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-37

King James Version

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Zechariah 14:

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

God said it will come to pass, I believe Him! And as it has not yet come to pass- we know it will in the future

Spiritual Israelite said:

If the new covenant is not yet in effect then how are we saved and how are our sins forgiven?

Matthew 26:27 Then He took the cup, and after He gave thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

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Now reread Jer.31:31-37 and compare it to Matt 26 above. See the differences between the terms of the covenant and the blood. Jesus' blood is not the New Covenant, but the purchase price of the covenant.

YOur biggest problem is that you view things through the failed lens of covenant theology. You fail to see that the church is a parenthesis between Gods dealing with Israel. Gentiles becoming one with Jews was prophesied and revealed in the new as the church. Paul made it crystal clear that once the pleroma of gentiles are come into the body of Jesus- then all Israel will be saved afterwards.

The church is a partaker of the salvation found in the covenant, but not taker overs. the covenant is specifically promised to Israel and any Gentile saved in this age is a wild olive branch grafted into teh vine of Israels blessings. As Paul said in Romans 11:11-28

Ronald Nolette said:

Jesus' blood is not the New Covenant, but the purchase price of the covenant.

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Provide just one example from pre-1800 historical orthodox Christianity which concurs with that claim.

Just one example.

You also refuse to tell us if you partake of the Lord's Supper. Why?

Keraz said:

No, the Disciples had the Promise of the New Covenant. As we do too.
The holy Land is our heritage. This generation ,[alive after the Jews became a nation again] will see it all.

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They had the New Covenant, not the promise of the New Covenant.

As we do too.

"Promise" does not appear in Matthew 26:28.

"Is" appears in Matthew 26:28.

Heaven is my heritage.

Sorry about you.

Keraz said:

Quite right,
But we were discussing the new Covenant, which is a different thing to Salvation.

Ezekiel 37:26 I shall make a new Covenant with My peoples, to ensure their peace and prosperity......

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Christ did make a NC with His people 2000 years ago.

Let's see what does it say about the NC?
2 Cor 3 says we are in the NC now.
Paul is comparing the OC with our NC

The Spirit, Not the Letter​

4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the [a]Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant​

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as [b]by the Spirit of the Lord.

Ronald Nolette said:

So you say the new covenant is fulfilled. Please show when the provisions of the covenant were fulfilled.

Once again here is the entire old covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-37​

​

King James Version​

​

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Zechariah 14:

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

God said it will come to pass, I believe Him! And as it has not yet come to pass- we know it will in the future

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Read Hebrews 8-10. Do you trust Hebrews 8-10 to be the truth? It says the new covenant has been fulfilled. Why not believe it whether you can fully understand how or not?

Keraz said:

Quite right,
But we were discussing the new Covenant, which is a different thing to Salvation.

Ezekiel 37:26 I shall make a new Covenant with My peoples, to ensure their peace and prosperity......

Click to expand...

How is the forgiveness of sins a different thing to salvation?

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Ronald Nolette said:

All these are provable except that Christians are the true Israelites of God. that comes from a mis-translation of Galatians 6

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There is only one people of God, made from all nations, tribes, tongues.
And their names are written in Heaven.

Example

Rev 5
6 And I looked, [c]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Worthy Is the Lamb​

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and [g]ever!”
14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the [h]twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped [i]Him who lives forever and ever.

Ronald Nolette said:

Now reread Jer.31:31-37 and compare it to Matt 26 above. See the differences between the terms of the covenant and the blood. Jesus' blood is not the New Covenant, but the purchase price of the covenant.

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What? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Ronald Nolette said:

YOur biggest problem is that you view things through the failed lens of covenant theology.

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Scripture says the better new covenant replaced the old covenant. Why not believe that?

Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Hebrews 10:9 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Your biggest problem is that you view things through the failed lens of dispensationalism.

Ronald Nolette said:

You fail to see that the church is a parenthesis between Gods dealing with Israel.

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I'm glad I fail to see that because it isn't true. God has dealt with Israel and the entire world by sending His Son to die for the sins of the world to provide the opportunity for everyone in the world, including everyone Israel, to believe in Him so that they could not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ronald Nolette said:

Gentiles becoming one with Jews was prophesied and revealed in the new as the church. Paul made it crystal clear that once the pleroma of gentiles are come into the body of Jesus- then all Israel will be saved afterwards.

The church is a partaker of the salvation found in the covenant, but not taker overs

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Jew and Gentile believers have been brought together as one by the blood of Christ. Why do you try to divide what Jesus brought together?

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

covenantee said:

Provide just one example from pre-1800 historical orthodox Christianity which concurs with that claim.

Just one example.

You also refuse to tell us if you partake of the Lord's Supper. Why?

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I do not care what people say apart from SCripture- Looks like you are leaning heavily on roman Catholic teaching on this. I don't

No one ever asked me if I partake of the Lords supper. _ I do every time our church celebrates it!

Once again Covenantee please show me in the provisions god declared in the New covenant where gentiles are mentioned.

Jeremiah 31:31-37

King James Version

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Hebrews 8:6-13

King James Version

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6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

I do not know of any other place in Gods Word where the terms of the New Covenant are spelled out.

Spiritual Israelite said:

Read Hebrews 8-10. Do you trust Hebrews 8-10 to be the truth? It says the new covenant has been fulfilled. Why not believe it whether you can fully understand how or not?

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Maybe I am a little dense here but please show me where in Hebrews 8-10 it says the provisions of the covenant are now fulfilled. Here is the covenant once again:

Jeremiah 31:31-37

King James Version

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

YOu believe those days as said in verse 31 have already come.

so do you believe Jews no longer need to hear the gospel for all the houses of Israel and Judah now know the Lord?

Scott Downey said:

There is only one people of God, made from all nations, tribes, tongues.
And their names are written in Heaven.

Example

Rev 5
6 And I looked, [c]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Worthy Is the Lamb​

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and [g]ever!”
14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the [h]twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped [i]Him who lives forever and ever.

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In eternity? Yes! but for the Millennial Kingdom there are disctinctions made between OT saints, the church and tribulation saints showing a distinction between Jewish saints and Gentile saints.

If you wish to learn, I can post the many many many passages in teh OT that show the disctinction between Jews and gentile believers in teh Millennial kingdom. The church is not mentioned for we are the bride of Jesus.