When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

Truth7t7 said:

Please direct me to your post number, "Waiting"?

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LOL. Waiting? Do you have no patience? Do you think I have nothing better to do than talk to you? So, it was too much trouble for you to go back and read my posts? Did I not make it clear that I see the Jews being taken captive to all nations, "the times of the Gentiles" and Matthew 24:23-26 as all occurring after the tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 is over? So, I have those things occurring after 70 AD and leading up until the second coming of Christ in the future. Is there something hard to understand about that?

Timtofly said:

We are souls conversing on a virtual chat cite. Does that mean we do not have physical bodies?

I am not sure how people interpret Revelation has people not having a physical body.

People reading this web cite could interpret it as we don't have physical bodies either.

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Do you not think we are made up of 3 parts: body, soul and spirit?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

David in NJ said:

YES

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Past or future?

Davidpt said:

In your case, I think he is simply debunking your interpretation based on his interpretation of those verses.

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That's what he thinks he's doing, but it's not reasonable to make the statement that I believe Jesus returns right after Matthew 24:15-21 is fulfilled when I have never said such a thing. If he wants to debate the meaning of that passage, that's fine, but it's not acceptable for him to misrepresent my view.

Davidpt said:

Your interpretation contradicts his interpretation of verses 15-30.

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No kidding. But, I couldn't care less about that.

Davidpt said:

His interpretation of those verses doesn't have a gap of 2000 years between verse 15 and verse 30. Yours does.

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Do you think I don't already know that? I know what he believes. That isn't the issue. The issue is him making false statements about what I believe. You complained about him doing that to you as well. But, I guess you think it's okay if he does that to me?

Davidpt said:

His interpretation does not have Christ returning 2000 years after verse 15 is fulfilled. His interpretation has Him returning after 42 months are fulfilled, where that 42 months begins with verse 15. According to his interpretation, the logic would be this per your interpretation, per his perspective. You have Christ returning in 70 AD not in the end of this age, since the correct length of time between verse 15 and verse 30 is not 2000 years it is 42 months. Granted, that is not your position, yet it is beside the point since his interpretation reveals the holes in your interpretation.

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What holes? I interpret Matthew 24:15-31 just like you interpret Luke 21:20-27, so does that mean there are holes in your interpretation of Luke 21:20-27?

Davidpt said:

In your case the problem is not him, the problem is you since you are not being consistent here.

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Yes, I am.

Davidpt said:

In your case the problem is not him, the problem is you since you are not being consistent here. You can't have verse 21 involving 70 AD then have verse 30 involving the 2nd coming in the end of this age when there is no 2000 year gap between those events. Verse 29 alone undeniably proves there is no 2000 year gap between the trib of those days, obviously meaning verse 21, and the coming meant in verse 30.

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It undeniably proves nothing. Don't ever complain about me acting too confident and like I supposedly have all the answers again because that is hypocritical. You do that yourself. Why is it okay for you to see a 2000 year gap between the tribulation described in Luke 21:20-24a and Luke 20:27 but it's a problem if I see a 2000 year gap between Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29? That makes no sense. And what about Matthew 24:23-26? That is something that occurs after Matthew 24:15-22 occurs. How can Jesus come immediately after Matthew 24:15-21 occurs when that would not allow Matthew 24:23-26 to occur? And, in my view, it wouldn't allow for the Jews being taken captive to all nations and the times of the Gentiles to occur, either.

Davidpt said:

IOW, in no universe is 2000 years immediately after anything.

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Of course. But, no one is saying that.

Davidpt said:

The way you try and get around this, you invent another tribulation of days that follow the tribulation of days in verse 21 that the text knows nothing of.

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What about spiritual tribulation involving persecution, mass apostasy, deception and increased wickedness? Does that not exist in your view? Is that not what Matthew 24:23-26 relates to? Matthew 24:15-22 is about God's wrath against unbelievers, not tribulation for believers. The tribulation that occurs before Christ's return relates to tribulation that believers go through.

Davidpt said:

The only tribulation mentioned prior to verse 29 is great tribulation, verse 21. Therefore, it stands to reason that the nearest antecedent for the tribulation of the days in verse 29 must be the tribulation of days involving verse 21.

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That's like saying that the "great distress" mentioned in Luke 21:23 must be related to the "distress of nations" in Luke 21:25, but neither of us believe that. The times of the Gentiles begins or continues after the "great distress" mentioned in Luke 21:23 and many years later the "distress of nations" occurs. That's how I see the tribulation related to Matthew 24:21 compared to the tribulation related to Matthew 24:29 as well. One tribulation is God's physical wrath against the Jews in 70 AD and the other is global spiritual tribulation before Jesus returns.

Davidpt said:

At least Preterists are being consistent, even though they too are wrong.

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There's nothing inconsistent in my view. Unlike you, I don't try to make Luke 21:20-24 into a completely different event than Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 despite them being very obviously the same event, in my opinion.

Davidpt said:

I don't think you fully grasp the art of debunking something.

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I am certain that you don't.

Davidpt said:

When someone attempts to debunk your view, you take it to mean they are misrepresenting your view when all they are basically doing is exposing the holes in your view.

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So, can I say that's all he was doing when he misrepresented your view then? Was it wrong for you to complain about him misrepresenting your view since all he was doing was exposing holes in your view?

Davidpt said:

I was responding to @Spiritual Israelite in regards to you since he was talking about you in that portion of his post that I quoted and was addressing. Basically, I support your approach in this case since your approach was exposing the holes in @Spiritual Israelite view, though I'm sure he disagrees since he typically thinks there are no holes in any of his views, thus nothing to expose. Yet there are holes in it. Matthew 24:29 being one of those holes.

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Says the guy who frequently calls his claims "undeniable".

covenantee said:

Past or future?

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BOTH

David in NJ said:

BOTH

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But in both passages, Christ is addressing His disciples and His audience, who would experience what we now know as the "past", i.e. 70 AD, scenario; as "ye" and "you".

Who are "ye" and "you" according to Scripture in your "future" scenario? Will Christ be reincarnating His disciples and audience?

Will He be re-creating the earthly environments and conditions described in the Matthew and Luke passages?

covenantee said:

But in both passages, Christ is addressing His disciples and His audience, who would experience what we now know as the "past", i.e. 70 AD, scenario; as "ye" and "you".

Who are "ye" and "you" according to Scripture in your "future" scenario? Will Christ be reincarnating His disciples and audience?

Will He be re-creating the earthly environments and conditions described in the Matthew and Luke passages?

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Right. He said "ye" and "you" in relation to seeing an event that He expected the disciples and His audience (at least some of them) to see in their lifetimes. An event that would involve people being killed with swords (Luke 21:24).

covenantee said:

But in both passages, Christ is addressing His disciples and His audience, who would experience what we now know as the "past", i.e. 70 AD, scenario; as "ye" and "you".

Who are "ye" and "you" according to Scripture in your "future" scenario? Will Christ be reincarnating His disciples and audience?

Will He be re-creating the earthly environments and conditions described in the Matthew and Luke passages?

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#1 - We, whom God has Called are His audience, His disciples, His sons = same as those disciples during 70 AD

#2 - Today, we who belong to Christ will also know to avoid the AoD as did those believing Jews/Gentiles in 70 AD

#3 - Those earthly environments now encapsulate the entire world and we will soon see = Revelation chapter 13

Spiritual Israelite said:

Did I not make it clear that I see the Jews being taken captive to all nations, "the times of the Gentiles" and Matthew 24:23-26 as all occurring after the tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 is over? So, I have those things occurring after 70 AD and leading up until the second coming of Christ in the future. Is there something hard to understand about that?

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Your claim that the events of Jews being led captive into all nations and the time of the gentiles taking place "After" the tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 is 100% "False"

Jesus returns "Immediately" after the tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 in final judgement (The End) also seen in Revelation 6:12-17 below (The Day Of The Lord) The End

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"Immediately" after the tribulation (The Day Of The Lord) takes place (The End), Matthew 24:29 & Revelation 6:12-14 is the same exact event in parallel teachings

Revelation 6:12-17KJV
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Your body is a temple I figured it out its the only temple of God as far as I am concerned. Not that stuff your talking about building instead.

David in NJ said:

#1 - We, whom God has Called are His audience, His disciples, His sons = same as those disciples during 70 AD

#2 - Today, we who belong to Christ will also know to avoid the AoD as did those believing Jews/Gentiles in 70 AD

#3 - Those earthly environments now encapsulate the entire world and we will soon see = Revelation chapter 13

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To be completely literally true to Scripture, a futurized re-fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse necessitates a complete literal identical re-creation and re-incarnation of everything and everyone described in the associated passages in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

Anything else is presumption, conjecture, and speculation qualifying only as private interpretation.

Spiritual Israelite said:

Why is it okay for you to see a 2000 year gap between the tribulation described in Luke 21:20-24a and Luke 20:27 but it's a problem if I see a 2000 year gap between Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29?

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No 2,000 year gap is seen between verses 21 & 29 below as you "Falsely" claim, verse 15 shows Daniel's AOD that causes those to flee Judea into the mountains, this causes the great tribulation in verse 21

Verses 33-34 below silences your false claims with a sledge hammer slammed to the table, the generation that witnesses Daniel's AOD in verse 15 will not pass until (All Is Fulfilled) your claim of a 2,000 year gap is destroyed as you have untold generations that have passed and still waiting for the second coming in fulfillment, before your eyes your claim is destroyed!

Except those days should be shortened no flesh should be saved, and you magically turn this into 2,000 years and waiting, absolutely "Laughable"!

Those falsely teaching of a pre-trib rapture or a millennial kingdom on this earth have a better argument, "Sad"!

Matthew 24:15-22 & 29KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

covenantee said:

But in both passages, Christ is addressing His disciples and His audience, who would experience what we now know as the "past", i.e. 70 AD, scenario; as "ye" and "you".

Who are "ye" and "you" according to Scripture in your "future" scenario? Will Christ be reincarnating His disciples and audience?

Will He be re-creating the earthly environments and conditions described in the Matthew and Luke passages?

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Was the generation of the Apostles the generation that witnessed the day and hour no man knows, were they the generation who witnessed all things fulfilled in Matthew Chapter 24?

"Absolutely Not" it's a future generation that will witness the day and hour no man knows in the future literal second coming of Jesus in the heavens

Will you now break out your preterist symbolic magical wand and start waving it, waiting?

Matthew 24:33-36KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Truth7t7 said:

Was the generation of the Apostles the generation that witnessed the day and hour no man knows, were they the generation who witnessed all things fulfilled in Matthew Chapter 24?

"Absolutely Not" it's a future generation that will witness the day and hour no man knows in the future literal second coming of Jesus in the heavens

Will you now break out your preterist symbolic magical wand and start waving it, waiting?

Matthew 24:33-36KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

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Waiting for you, posts 343, 363.

covenantee said:

Waiting for you, posts 343, 363.

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Crickets!

covenantee said:

That's four future second comings for you when you include Matthew.

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There is one future second coming of Jesus in the heavens

covenantee said:

Tell the Judaean Christians that they are false preterist teachings.

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The Judean Christians fleeing to the mountains are future unfulfilled

Truth7t7 said:

There is one future second coming of Jesus in the heavens

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Why are you ignoring those Scriptures?