When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[David in NJ]

How does this answer the question? Does this mean you're saying that any prophecy that is never explicitly said to have been fulfilled once has a dual fulfillment or could have a dual fulfillment?

Does this mean you're saying that any prophecy that is never explicitly said to have been fulfilled once has a dual fulfillment or could have a dual fulfillment?

No

All Prophecy is given by God thru the Holy Spirit = 2 Peter 1:19-21

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Luke 21:20 in Jerusalem being surrounded by armies is a future event unfulfilled, in the fulfilling of the gentiles Luke 21:24 also seen in Revelation 11:2 as the book of Revelation was written in 96AD when John was imprisoned by Emperor Domitian that reigned in 81-96AD years "After" Your 70AD claim

Luke 21:24KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Do you see Luke 21:20-24 as being parallel to Matthew 24:15-22, which would mean that when they see the abomination of desolation and Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, then it's time for those in Judea to flee to the mountains because "the tribulation" is coming? If so, then how can the times of the Gentiles (42 months) occur after that tribulation when you believe that Jesus returns immediately after that tribulation?

And how about this passage that I asked about before and you didn't answer:

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

When do you think this takes place in relation to Matthew 24:15-22?

 

[TribulationSigns]

When Christ died and rose?

I decided to review your OP since I may have missed it. I am an amillennialist, like Spiritual Israelite, but his interpretation is wrong. So I will answer your questions for all to read.

Yes

Or in 70 AD when it was fully destroyed? There can only be one answer here.

No.

Why this matters is because of what Matthew 24:15, for one, records.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Spiritual Israelite is wrong on this. Christ spoke of the fall of the Old Testament congregation here, not of a pile of bricks in the Middle East.

Christ is talking about HIS BODY, the Temple that fell at the Cross, signaled the desolation of Israel as a representative of God's Kingdom, and the rebuilding signaled the bringing again of the spiritual captivity. The fall of the Temple in Matthew 24:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6 was about the fall of Old Testament congregation with people being the stones of that temple. This is how Christ saw it and prophesied about it. And the fall of the temple in Matthew 24:15-20 and Luke 21:20-24 is about the fall of the New Testament congregation near the end of the world. BOTH were not talking about physical destruction but the fall of spiritual temple with stars falling, Matthew 24:29 and Luke 21:25. Plainly illustrated to those who can "see" that the restoration of Israel is NOT about a worldly/carnal construction efforts, but about a regeneration and recreation in Christ Jesus. Congregation Israel, which once represented the Old Testament Saints, is being restored by the spreading of the Gospel reconciliation of the World with the Gentiles Saints be coming in. Nothing to do wth physical temple.

Do they do like Dispys do, make it be involving a rebuilt temple in the future? Like that is the only option.

The premillennialists, preterists, and some amillennialists, like Spiritual Israelities, all have something in common which is the preoccupation today with the visual. The AD 70 theory, the rebuilding of the physical temple, the supporting the nation of Israel today, it's all part and parcel of the same visual error concerning where man will find the kingdom of God. The Pharisees made the very same mistake. Selah! And the Church today just doesn't seem to learn from the examples that God has provided for us.

Luke 17:20-21

• "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
• Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

CLEARLY God is saying the Kingdom of God is Spiritual and not visual or physical, where it can be observed. Because we worship God in Spirit and truth, not with looking visually to Lands, Pictures, Temples, Earthly Kingdoms or visions of world wide dominion theologies. It's all about the "Spiritual" and not the visual. Some people just don't get the Spiritual.

Also consider that the bringing again into the land that the Premillennialists (and some Post and Amillennialists) believe is future, was fulfilled by Christ. It wasn't a prophesy of restoration of a physical land, but the bringing of God's people back to the promised land of the true Israel of God. The land of promise is a Spiritual land.

Ezekiel 37:12-14

• "Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
• And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
• And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Is this a prophecy of literal dead people rising out of the ground so they will get a heavenly Visa to live in the physical land of Israel? NO! Of course not! It's a prophecy of the spiritual dead, being spiritually resurrected to reign with Christ in Spiritual Israel. Selah!

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

When do you think this takes place in relation to Matthew 24:15-22?

Matthew 24:23-26 False Christ's and False Prophets showing signs and wonders is "Future" as scripture clearly teaches, (The Beast & False Prophet) and its my understanding you don't believe they are future individual human men

Revelation 13:13-15KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I decided to review your OP since I may have missed it. I am an amillennialist, like Spiritual Israelite, but his interpretation is wrong. So I will answer your questions for all to read.

Yes


No.


Spiritual Israelite is wrong on this. Christ spoke of the fall of the Old Testament congregation here, not of a pile of bricks in the Middle East.

Christ is talking about HIS BODY, the Temple that fell at the Cross, signaled the desolation of Israel as a representative of God's Kingdom, and the rebuilding signaled the bringing again of the spiritual captivity. The fall of the Temple in Matthew 24:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6 was about the fall of Old Testament congregation with people being the stones of that temple. This is how Christ saw it and prophesied about it. And the fall of the temple in Matthew 24:15-20 and Luke 21:20-24 is about the fall of the New Testament congregation near the end of the world. BOTH were not talking about physical destruction but the fall of spiritual temple with stars falling, Matthew 24:29 and Luke 21:25. Plainly illustrated to those who can "see" that the restoration of Israel is NOT about a worldly/carnal construction efforts, but about a regeneration and recreation in Christ Jesus. Congregation Israel, which once represented the Old Testament Saints, is being restored by the spreading of the Gospel reconciliation of the World with the Gentiles Saints be coming in. Nothing to do wth physical temple.



The premillennialists, preterists, and some amillennialists, like Spiritual Israelities, all have something in common which is the preoccupation today with the visual. The AD 70 theory, the rebuilding of the physical temple, the supporting the nation of Israel today, it's all part and parcel of the same visual error concerning where man will find the kingdom of God. The Pharisees made the very same mistake. Selah! And the Church today just doesn't seem to learn from the examples that God has provided for us.

Luke 17:20-21

• "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
• Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

CLEARLY God is saying the Kingdom of God is Spiritual and not visual or physical, where it can be observed. Because we worship God in Spirit and truth, not with looking visually to Lands, Pictures, Temples, Earthly Kingdoms or visions of world wide dominion theologies. It's all about the "Spiritual" and not the visual. Some people just don't get the Spiritual.

Also consider that the bringing again into the land that the Premillennialists (and some Post and Amillennialists) believe is future, was fulfilled by Christ. It wasn't a prophesy of restoration of a physical land, but the bringing of God's people back to the promised land of the true Israel of God. The land of promise is a Spiritual land.

Ezekiel 37:12-14

• "Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
• And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
• And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Is this a prophecy of literal dead people rising out of the ground so they will get a heavenly Visa to live in the physical land of Israel? NO! Of course not! It's a prophecy of the spiritual dead, being spiritually resurrected to reign with Christ in Spiritual Israel. Selah!

Says the guy who denies the existence of Satan or any angels at all, showing that people can only take your comments with a grain of salt.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:23-26 False Christ's and False Prophets showing signs and wonders is "Future" as scripture clearly teaches, (The Beast & False Prophet) and its my understanding you don't believe they are future individual human men

Don't change the subject. I'm asking when you believe that Matthew 24:23-26 occurs in relation to Matthew 24:15-22? Is that not something that occurs after Matthew 24:15-22 takes place?

 

[Truth7t7]

Do you see Luke 21:20-24 as being parallel to Matthew 24:15-22, which would mean that when they see the abomination of desolation and Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, then it's time for those in Judea to flee to the mountains because "the tribulation" is coming? If so, then how can the times of the Gentiles (42 months) occur after that tribulation when you believe that Jesus returns immediately after that tribulation?

Yes Luke and Matthew are parallel, when the "Future" armies surround Jerusalem and the desolation takes place this starts the 42 month or 1260 day tribulation, yes the (Two Witnesses) will stand against (The Beast) for this entire time bringing literal plagues upon this literal world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

At the end of this 42 months or 1260 days the great earthquake and signs as seen in Rev Chapter 11, the 7th angel sounds in the second coming resurrection and final judgement

If I recall correctly you don't believe the (Two Witnesses) will be literal prophets returned, nor will they have literal bodies that die

Luke 21:20-24 & Revelation 11:2 are "Future" events unfulfilled

Revelation 11:2-3KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Luke 21:20-24KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[Truth7t7]

Don't change the subject. I'm asking when you believe that Matthew 24:23-26 occurs in relation to Matthew 24:15-22? Is that not something that occurs after Matthew 24:15-22 takes place?

Matthew 24:15 Daniels AOD starts the future 42 month great tribulation causing those to flee Jerusalem/Judea, Matthew 24:21-26 takes place within this 42 month or 1260 day time frame, the warning given is depicting (The Beast) & (False Prophet) in false wonders and miracles as seen in Revelation chapter 13, the warning is given in verse 27 in how Jesus will return in the heavebs as lightning, Jesus returns immediately after this "Future" great tribulation of 42 months or 1260 days in fire and final judgment (The End) of this world

Matthew 24:15-31 are future events unfulfilled, I have given my belief on Matthew 24:15-31 in detail

Jesus Is The Lord

Matthew 24:15-31KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Truth7t7]

Don't change the subject. I'm asking when you believe that Matthew 24:23-26 occurs in relation to Matthew 24:15-22? Is that not something that occurs after Matthew 24:15-22 takes place?

You have been clearly answered in post #388 above

You can't have a 70AD great tribulation Matthew 24:21 with Jesus returning immediately after this tribulation in the future

There isn't a 2,000 year gap seen anywhere between Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:30, your claim of a 70AD great tribulation is "False"

 

[TribulationSigns]

Says the guy who denies the existence of Satan or any angels at all, showing that people can only take your comments with a grain of salt.

LOL! I do not deny Satan's existence at all. He is a SPIRIT. Not created being. The problem is that you (and many of you) do not understand who Satan and the angels are. There was no spirit of disobedience before the episode in the garden. So Satan wasn't created in Heaven. That spirit was conceived within Eve and Adam when they themselves disobeyed - the moment they lusted after the fruit and sinned and that was the change of spirit and introduction of sin. Man's evil spirit is his own, just as we had it as our spirit to begin with! The Serpent was merely symbolic of that spirit of man.

There was no sin in the flesh of Adam and Eve until in their spirit they disobeyed.

Eze 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

That's a man who was created perfect and in whom there was no spirit to disobey until that day it was conceived by lust and brought forth death. Nothing is talked about Satan being created in heaven so iniquity found him in Heaven. Heaven?! God forbid that iniquity shows up in His Heaven! That is why you got brainwashed about Lucifer, thinking that he was a good angel that God created in heaven. This is not what Scripture said. Your Sunday School taught you that. God was talking about ADAM in Ezekiel 28.

Of course, like the temple in 70AD, you will deny this because you have been brainwashed by false doctrines. :-)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes Luke and Matthew are parallel, when the "Future" armies surround Jerusalem and the desolation takes place this starts the 42 month or 1260 day tribulation, yes the (Two Witnesses) will stand against (The Beast) for this entire time bringing literal plagues upon this literal world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

At the end of this 42 months or 1260 days the great earthquake and signs as seen in Rev Chapter 11, the 7th angel sounds in the second coming resurrection and final judgement

So, the tribulation you're talking about is described in Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24a, right? And you say that Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation of those days. In Luke 21:24 it indicates that some Jews in Jerusalem are killed by the sword during the tribulation and then some are taken captive into all nations after the tribulation is over. How can that happen after the tribulation is over if Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation is over?

How can the times of the Gentiles take place after the tribulation is over if Jesus comes immediately after that tribulation?

How can false prophets and false Christs appear and such after the tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-22 is over (as shown in Matthew 24:23-26) if Jesus comes immediately after it is over?

What type of tribulation did Paul indicate would occur before Christ's return in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12? Spiritual or physical?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have been clearly answered in post #388 above

You can't have a 70AD great tribulation Matthew 24:21 with Jesus returning immediately after this tribulation in the future

No, I do not. Stop misrepresenting my view. I having Him returning immediately after the tribulation of a high level of deception, wickedness, apostasy and persecution occurs, as Jesus talks about in Matthew 24:9-13, 23-26 and that Paul wrote about in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.

You are an Amill. Don't you believe that the tribulation that occurs before Christ returns relates to spiritual deception during Satan's little season rather than being all about God's wrath that results in many people being killed just before He comes?

There isn't a 2,000 year gap seen anywhere between Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:30, your claim of a 70AD great tribulation is "False"

You don't acknowledge that there's any gap at all despite Jesus indicating as such by talking about false prophets and Christs appearing after the tribulation and "the times of the Gentiles" occurring after the tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24a.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL! I do not deny Satan's existence at all. He is a SPIRIT. Not created being.

LOL! You knew what I meant! I meant that you deny his existence as a personal, created being. I said "Says the guy who denies the existence of Satan or any angels at all", which shows I was saying that you deny that he is an angel. A fallen angel who is the king of all fallen angels (Rev 9:11, Rev 12:9, Matt 25:41).

The problem is that you (and many of you) do not understand who Satan and the angels are.

Yes, we do. You can't be taken seriously about this whatsoever. You think Jesus was talking to some non-created being out in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights. Total nonsense.

 

[Truth7t7]

In Luke 21:24 it indicates that some Jews in Jerusalem are killed by the sword during the tribulation and then some are taken captive into all nations after the tribulation is over. How can that happen after the tribulation is over if Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation is over?

I never stated captives are taken after the tribulation your adding to my words, Jesus returns immediately after a "future" great tribulation that lasts 42 months or 1260 days, (The End)

How can the times of the Gentiles take place after the tribulation is over if Jesus comes immediately after that tribulation?

Once again I never stated such, you have added this falsely to my words

How can false prophets and false Christs appear and such after the tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-22 is over (as shown in Matthew 24:23-26) if Jesus comes immediately after it is over?

Once again I never stated after a tribulation, those are your words falsely added

What type of tribulation did Paul indicate would occur before Christ's return in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12? Spiritual or physical?

A physical tribulation that will see a literal (man of sin) present on this earth who is destroyed at the Lord's second coming

 

[Davidpt]

There isn't a 2,000 year gap seen anywhere between Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:30, your claim of a 70AD great tribulation is "False"

I 100% agree with this, yet at the same I would argue that there is a 2000 year gap between Luke 21:20 And Luke 21:27, though. In Luke 21, meaning as of verse 20, we are in the beginning of the times of the Gentiles. In Matthew 24, meaning as of verse 15, we are in the final days of the times of the Gentiles, meaning we are in the 42 month reign of the beast where the 2nd coming follows that, thus the times of the Gentiles will have been fulfilled once Christ returns.

Nothing recorded in Matthew 24 from verse 15 onward is involving the beginning of this, after all it has to have a beginning---and shall be led away captive into all nations. Obviously, 70 AD makes sense out of that.

Speaking of Luke 21:24 then, let's kill 2 birds with one stone here, so to speak.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


This alone is undeniable proof that Preterists are misinterpreting verse 32. And here is why. Verse 32 plainly says---This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. It does not say, till some things are fulfilled while some things aren't. It clearly says all. Which undenably means that verse 32 can't be fulfilled until this is fulfilled first--until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. It is absurd that the 'all' mentioned in verse 32 does not also include this-- until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


But what good does it do to debunk anything? No one ever wants to admit anything has been debunked. I guess that means everyone is right about these things we debate since no one ever wants to admit that it is they that are wrong. Granted, some things are not easy to convincingly prove wrong, but this is not including what I just proved wrong here pertaining to verse 32, though. That was super easy to prove wrong. Didn't take much effort at all.

The only way I can be wrong is, and the Preterists right, the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled before they insist verse 32 was fulfilled. That's the only way. But then they have to convincingly undeniably prove that the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled before they have verse 32 fulfilled.

If we are not still in the times of the Gentiles as we speak, what times are we in? The times of the Jews? There is only Gentiles and Jews, right?

 

[Truth7t7]

I 100% agree with this, yet at the same I would argue that there is a 2000 year gap between Luke 21:20 And Luke 21:27, though. In Luke 21, meaning as of verse 20, we are in the beginning of the times of the Gentiles. In Matthew 24, meaning as of verse 15, we are in the final days of the times of the Gentiles, meaning we are in the 42 month reign of the beast where the 2nd coming follows that, thus the times of the Gentiles will have been fulfilled once Christ returns.

Nothing recorded in Matthew 24 from verse 15 onward is involving the beginning of this, after all it has to have a beginning---and shall be led away captive into all nations. Obviously, 70 AD makes sense out of that.

Speaking of Luke 21:24 then, let's kill 2 birds with one stone here, so to speak.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


This alone is undeniable proof that Preterists are misinterpreting verse 32. And here is why. Verse 32 plainly says---This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. It does not say, till some things are fulfilled while some things aren't. It clearly says all. Which undenably means that verse 32 can't be fulfilled until this is fulfilled first--until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. It is absurd that the 'all' mentioned in verse 32 does not also include this-- until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


But what good does it do to debunk anything? No one ever wants to admit anything has been debunked. I guess that means everyone is right about these things we debate since no one ever wants to admit that it is they that are wrong. Granted, some things are not easy to convincingly prove wrong, but this is not including what I just proved wrong here pertaining to verse 32, though. That was super easy to prove wrong. Didn't take much effort at all.

The only way I can be wrong is, and the Preterists right, the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled before they insist verse 32 was fulfilled. That's the only way. But then they have to convincingly undeniably prove that the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled before they have verse 32 fulfilled.

If we are not still in the times of the Gentiles as we speak, what times are we in? The times of the Jews? There is only Gentiles and Jews, right?

Luke 21:20-24 & Revelation 11:2 are "Future" events unfulfilled, the book of Revelation was written in 96AD

Revelation 11:2-3KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Luke 21:20-24KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I meant that you deny his existence as a personal, created being.

True! I have explained this before. You are still in denial.

I said "Says the guy who denies the existence of Satan or any angels at all", which shows I was saying that you deny that he is an angel.

LOL, Satan is a spirit working within man, for he is the messenger of light. Selah!

A fallen angel who is the king of all fallen angels (Rev 9:11, Rev 12:9, Matt 25:41).

Rev 9:11
(11) And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Sigh! Satan is not an angel with wings or whatever, as a created being. He is a SPIRIT, the "messenger" of evil, and Apollyon (or Abaddon) is Satan, that very same spirit and king ruling over the deceived. Satan doesn't give command to Apollyon, Satan "IS" Apollyon. That word means destruction, and that is the epitome of what he does here. He is the king or ruler of this spiritual army from the abyss, and what he brings is death to these people. This Hebrew word [abaddon] only occurs here in the New Testament and 5 times in the Old Testament (Job 26:6; 28:22; 31:12; Psalm 88:11; Prov 15:11 ) and always relates to death, which this messenger from hell/hades brings to the unfaithful congregation (those in it who are not truly sealed).

Selah!

Satan as a created being? Please! Again, he is a spirit of MAN! He is a king over the deceived men and women who have his spirit. They are his spiritual army of messengers sent to deceive those in the congregation. This is how the false prophets and christs work! Their spirit of disobedience (Satan) is their king, whom they serve instead of Christ. We all used to have that spirit before, haven't we? Satan was our king, right? But when we were born again, it has been replaced with the Spirit of Christ, which means He is now our king! We are part of his spiritual army of messenger/witnesses. Kingdom against kingdom and nation against nation!

You think Jesus was talking to some non-created being out in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights. Total nonsense.

Total nonsense to those who do not understand fully who Satan is and what he represents. Yeah, not surprised.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I never stated captives are taken after the tribulation your adding to my words, Jesus returns immediately after a "future" great tribulation that lasts 42 months or 1260 days, (The End)

Be more clear about what you believe then. I'm trying to get you to address Luke 21:24. Where does the part about Jews being taken prisoners to all nations fit in that 42 months? Wouldn't they be taken captive to all nations after the tribulation in Jerusalem is over?

Once again I never stated such, you have added this falsely to my words

Once again I never stated after a tribulation, those are your words falsely added

I am not trying to misrepresent your view. I'm trying to ask questions to clarify your view, but your answers are not entirely clear.

Look at it this way. You agreed that Matthew 24:15-22 is parallel to Luke 21:20-24. Isn't the tribulation over at the end of Luke 21:20-24? If so, why wouldn't it also be over at the end of Matthew 24:15-22?

A physical tribulation that will see a literal (man of sin) present on this earth who is destroyed at the Lord's second coming

Does Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 24:23-26 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 look like physical tribulation to you? Maybe in the form of persecution against believers, but not God's wrath. They refer mainly to a high level of deception, apostasy and wickedness occurring before Jesus comes. Also, Matt 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 refer to God's wrath. The tribulation that occurs before Christ's return is not God's wrath, but rather spiritual tribulation like we see in Satan's little season. Don't you, as an Amill, equate Satan's little season with the tribulation that occurs before Christ returns?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I 100% agree with this

Not with all of "this", he said, though, right? What he said included him saying "your claim of a 70AD great tribulation is "False". He was saying that in general and not just in relation to Matthew 24. But, you do believe there was a great tribulation in 70 AD, but only believe it is recorded in Luke and not Matthew and Mark for some reason. Why would Matthew and Mark not have recorded that part of the Olivet Discourse?

, yet at the same I would argue that there is a 2000 year gap between Luke 21:20 And Luke 21:27, though. In Luke 21, meaning as of verse 20, we are in the beginning of the times of the Gentiles. In Matthew 24, meaning as of verse 15, we are in the final days of the times of the Gentiles, meaning we are in the 42 month reign of the beast where the 2nd coming follows that, thus the times of the Gentiles will have been fulfilled once Christ returns.

I'm sorry, but I can't comprehend what you're saying here at all. Can you clarify it? How are you coming to these conclusions?

Nothing recorded in Matthew 24 from verse 15 onward is involving the beginning of this, after all it has to have a beginning---and shall be led away captive into all nations. Obviously, 70 AD makes sense out of that.

Not really sure what you're saying here, either. But, when it comes to Luke 21:20-24, would you agree that the Jews being led away captive into all nations is something that occurs after the tribulation of 70 AD is over? That's what I'm trying to get Truth7t7 to address because He has Jesus returning immediately after the tribulation of Luke 21:20-24 is over. That would require him to believe that the taking of the Jews captive to all nations and the times of the Gentiles be part of the tribulation that occurs in a 3.5 year time period before He returns.

Speaking of Luke 21:24 then, let's kill 2 birds with one stone here, so to speak.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


This alone is undeniable proof that Preterists are misinterpreting verse 32. And here is why. Verse 32 plainly says---This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. It does not say, till some things are fulfilled while some things aren't. It clearly says all. Which undenably means that verse 32 can't be fulfilled until this is fulfilled first--until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. It is absurd that the 'all' mentioned in verse 32 does not also include this-- until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

I'm not a Preterist, but I'm having trouble understanding this argument. Do they say that this generation passed away before the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled? I don't think they do. They don't have the same understanding of that time as we do in terms of it extending and continuing until the future return of Christ. My understanding is that they believe the times of the Gentiles ended in 70 AD and began with the Babylonian exile.

But what good does it do to debunk anything? No one ever wants to admit anything has been debunked.

Including you, apparently?

I guess that means everyone is right about these things we debate since no one ever wants to admit that it is they that are wrong.

Including you, apparently?

Granted, some things are not easy to convincingly prove wrong, but this is not including what I just proved wrong here pertaining to verse 32, though. That was super easy to prove wrong. Didn't take much effort at all.

Of course it's wrong if your understanding of the times of the Gentiles is correct, which I agree that it is, but they don't share that understanding.

Why do you get offended whenever I show confidence in my view like you're doing here with your view? That's only okay for you, but not me?

The only way I can be wrong is, and the Preterists right, the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled before they insist verse 32 was fulfilled. That's the only way.

That's what they believe. But they're not right about that.

But then they have to convincingly undeniably prove that the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled before they have verse 32 fulfilled.

They can't.

If we are not still in the times of the Gentiles as we speak, what times are we in? The times of the Jews? There is only Gentiles and Jews, right?

Right. But, getting preterists to understand this is a difficult task for some reason. I don't get it. I can't decide which view I dislike more. Dispensationalism or preterism.

 

[Davidpt]

Luke 21:20-24 & Revelation 11:2 are "Future" events unfulfilled, the book of Revelation was written in 96AD

Revelation 11:2-3KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Luke 21:20-24KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

I don't take Revelation 11:1-2 to be involving the first century and 70 AD to begin with. I never did. I have always taken it to be involving Matthew 24:15-26. Except initially I interpreted to be involving a rebuilt temple in the future. I abandoned that idea some time ago. I take it to be involving 2 Thessalonian 2:4, except I don't take that temple in the literal sense, nor do I take the temple meant in Revelation 11:1-2 in the literal sense. Verse 2 is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast. Verse 2 is meaning great tribulation, Matthew 24:21, Daniel 12:1. Luke 21:20, OTOH, is pertaining to the first century leading up to 70 AD. That's when they were initially led away captive into all nations.

Every exile in the past always had a return to their land eventually, everytime. Obviously then, 1948 was when they began returning to their land. Except God is still hiding His face from them until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude. All of that is recorded in Ezekiel 39 of course.