Big Boy Johnson
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The calvinists claim God is the one preventing people from not getting saved, not the devil.
Strong Delusion
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The calvinists claim God is the one preventing people from not getting saved, not the devil.
ewq1938
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Well, the bible does present God as blinding people to keep them from being saved. I feel like these are special circumstances/peoples.
"The Holy Spirit will teach you all things and bring all things I said to you to remembrance." - that includes how to work (implying together).
John 14:26
Davy
Well-Known Member
And it is... a special circumstance situation, because Apostle Paul in Romans 11:25-32 revealed that it is, regarding the majority of unbelieving Jews. Paul showed that God put the "spirit of slumber" upon the majority of Jews away from The Gospel so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. But Paul also showed that God is going to remove their spiritual blindness once the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
So I don't know why folks keep acting like Apostle Paul never taught any such thing, like someone sneaked around tearing out that section of Romans 11 out folk's Bibles!
Spiritual Israelite
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They were never blinded permanently. Paul talked about saving some of the Israelites who were blinded in his day (Romans 11:7-14).
quietthinker
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I doubt that God blinds anybody. His Spirit strives with all people to bring them to the knowledge of his love for them.
It is the god of this world (Satan) that blinds people....of that very thing.
John 10:10
The thief (the devil) cometh not but to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I (Jesus) am come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Did you not read the passage that I referenced?
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
This says that God blinded the Israelites in Paul's day. Do you doubt that Paul was telling the truth here? But, as I said, Paul hoped to lead some of those who were blinded to salvation so their blindness wasn't permanent.
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
God blinded them so that salvation would go to the Gentiles. As Paul explained, God's purpose for that was to then make those blinded Israelites jealous of the salvation of the Gentiles so that they too would want to be saved.
quietthinker
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Big Boy Johnson
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That's the devil doing that, not God.
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Those believing God is preventing people from being saved are servants of the devil. They are called "calvinists"
The Jews reaped what they sowed so by rejecting Jesus as the Messiah they reaped blindness.
God did not look up one day and say "You know, I think I'll blind all the descendants of Abraham"
The situation they are in concerning blindness is due to reaping what they sow in that they rejected God and caused themselves to be blinded spiritually. 2 Corinthians 4:4 is applicable to the Jews right now and we see many of them accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior and the blindness come off.
It's the calvinists listening to the devil who claim God blinds most people and is actively preventing them from being saved because the "god" they serve doesn't want anybody to be saved. Calvinists serve the devil and just don't know it due to that blindness thing being upon them.
Funny as to why calvinists don't know or acknowledge this verse
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Cherry picking leads to errors.
ewq1938
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No, it's God doing it and there are other scriptures that make it clear God blinds people.
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He (God) hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
The HE here is God and this is very similar language. God blinded them so they could not convert and be healed! Isn't that what the other verse is saying? Also note that in both scriptures the people being blinded didn't believe prior to the blinding:
"blinded the minds of them which believe not"
"Therefore they could not believe" "He (God) hath blinded their eyes"
Same God doing the blinding and same people being blinded.
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
Big Boy Johnson
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2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
You don't understand that God's Kingdom works on the seedtime and harvest principle so what you are claiming as God out of the blue decided to make some people blind spiritually is false doctrine. They reaped what they sowed and causes the seedtime harvest system God build His Kingdom upon to cause them to be blind.
Mark 4:26
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground
Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.
Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done
The Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah, so they have been turned over to a reprobate mind or understanding simply because they are reaping what they have sown.
It was NOT God's will for the Jews to reject Jesus and He did not cause them to as the calvinists claim not knowing the scriptures.
Big Boy Johnson
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Because they decided to not believe
Not because God said one day, "You know, I think today I'm going to go put some blindness on some people!"
The Israelites have a long history of turning away from God and the Lord has a long history of letting them reap bad times when they do.
ewq1938
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Teh scriptures refute you:
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He (God) hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Big Boy Johnson
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You trying to refute the scriptures.
I'm not much on following religious people that don't know what's going on who cherry pick the Bible.
I'll stick with the whole counsel of God as laid out in scripture.
quietthinker
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I can see you have it in for Calvinists BBJ.
Have you read John Calvin yourself?
Spiritual Israelite
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Spiritual Israelite
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I told you the context. Did you read my post? Is it too hard for you to address what I said? How about you tell me what you think the context is then?
Big Boy Johnson
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Yes and I compared what your boy calvin taught with the Word of God and there are many contradictions with your boy calvin so I had to make the decision to kick calvin to the curb and stick with the Lord and what He teaches in His Word.
One does not have to a follower of calvin to have been influenced by calvin's teachings.
Augustine, calvin, and luther were used mightily be satan to bring in damnable heresies which is why most churches and preachers have been indoctrinated with in modern times even as many of them claim to not be followers of augustine, calvin, and luther
The deception is commonly known as reformed theology so and it's right up their with catholic teachings in terms of being influential to deceive so many away from actually believing what the Lord teaches in His Word
2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.
Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)
Matthew 24:3-13
What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (including saying “I am anointed”); and shall deceive many.
And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that you be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
For nation shall rise against nation (ethnic group vs ethnic group), and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in many different places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (See 1 John 5:3 AND 2 John 1:6)
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
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Spiritual Israelite
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I'm not influenced by his teachings at all. Stop acting like you know what I believe. You clearly do not. Don't try to speak for me.
Big Boy Johnson
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