The pope triples down on his univeralism

musterion · Oct 2, 2013

I'll say this for him: he's consistent and has the courage of his convictions. I'll give him that much credit for not trying to backpedal or weasel out.

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/10/01/news/pope_s_conversation_with_scalfari_english-67643118/

Money quote:

"Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good."

If that rings a bell, see Judges 21:25.

aspen · Oct 3, 2013

Not sure what the purpose of your thread is - are you trying to start a discussion?

musterion · Oct 3, 2013

It's a current event. This is the current events forum.

Selene · Oct 3, 2013

The Pope never believed in universalism to begin with.

musterion · Oct 5, 2013

Tell that to the people he said can come to God just by following their consciences and doing what they believe is right.

aspen · Oct 6, 2013

Jesus is the only way to God, but there is more than one way to Jesus.

musterion · Oct 7, 2013

aspen2 said:
Jesus is the only way to God, but there is more than one way to Jesus.

How many ways to Jesus are there, then? Please list as many as you can think of.

aspen · Oct 7, 2013

Countless. That is why Jesus meets us where we are at. Faith is a gift from God and is shaped by the Holy Spirit, regardless of what silly doctrines we try to hold onto - He will bring forth a good work in us.

Remember, we are not saved by doctrine - we are saved by the Grace of God. The doctrine of the Trinity is not supposed to be an all inclusive understanding of the nature of God, for example - it is a shadow of truth - a mere snapshot of God - a starting place.

Doctrine will be corrected when truth is fully revealed - the important part of our nature is the softness of our heart, not the knowledge we think we possess.

Brother James · Oct 8, 2013

musterion said:
Tell that to the people he said can come to God just by following their consciences and doing what they believe is right.

Actually, that is not what he said.

musterion said:
How many ways to Jesus are there, then? Please list as many as you can think of.

God is not hamstrung by our constraints. There are as many ways to Jesus as there are people. I don't believe anyone ever encountered Him in exactly the same way I did, for example. The choice was His, not mine.

musterion · Oct 8, 2013

Brother James said:
Actually, that is not what he said.

That is precisely what he said, which is precisely why so many Catholics are rightly upset by it.

There are as many ways to Jesus as there are people.

While there are many gospels in the world, just as there are many Christs, all but One of them are false. If anyone seeks to come to God other than by His Gospel and His Christ, they won't make it.

lforrest · Oct 8, 2013

musterion said:
Actually, that is not what he said.

That is precisely what he said, which is precisely why so many Catholics are rightly upset by it.

There are as many ways to Jesus as there are people.

While there are many gospels in the world, just as there are many Christs, all but One of them are false. If anyone seeks to come to God other than by His Gospel and His Christ, they won't make it.

Click to expand...

Christ crucified for the remission of sin is the gospel. How one comes to believe that gospel is of no consequence for their salvation.

horsecamp · Oct 8, 2013

Selene said:
The Pope never believed in universalism to begin with.

what you say is true if popes beleived in universalism they would have to let that rascal Luther into heaven

musterion · Oct 9, 2013

lforrest said:
Christ crucified for the remission of sin is the gospel. How one comes to believe that gospel is of no consequence for their salvation.

You're missing or avoiding the point. He communicated to atheists - three times now - that if they turn out to be wrong and do find themselves standing before God, obeying their consciences and doing what they sincerely believed was correct will have been enough. He did not mention their dire need for faith in Christ in that context. So he is not only preaching a form of universalism but, in so doing, is denying Christ.

aspen · Oct 9, 2013

Perhaps he is meeting them were they are at. Doctrine is not what was needed - they needed to be listened to and their spiritual state acknowledged. If God is faithful, their atheism will lead them to Christ. Life is not about converting people on a dime - God is working to bring all of us to His Son.

musterion · Oct 9, 2013

If they die in their sin, they go to the Lake of Fire for having refused to receive a love of the truth which the pope evidently doesn't think they need.

aspen · Oct 9, 2013

musterion said:
If they die in their sin, they go to the Lake of Fire for having refused to receive a love of the truth which the pope evidently doesn't think they need.

That type of thinking is based in fear, not faith in the love and character of God.

lforrest · Oct 10, 2013

musterion said:
You're missing or avoiding the point. He communicated to atheists - three times now - that if they turn out to be wrong and do find themselves standing before God, obeying their consciences and doing what they sincerely believed was correct will have been enough. He did not mention their dire need for faith in Christ in that context. So he is not only preaching a form of universalism but, in so doing, is denying Christ.

The quote from the article article is "Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good." Consider that the Pope was addressing a Catholic which he assumes to already be saved and wants to know how to better discern between right and wrong. The quote says nothing about being saved by obeying your conscience.

He spoke truthfully that the world would be a better place if everyone obeyed their conscience, though surely it wouldn't be a utopia.

Are the other two quotes you refer to the same as this one?

horsecamp · Oct 10, 2013

Selene is right . even the papal teaching of purgatory which has never been done away proves she is right.. Also The pope is simply stating to athieists as the vicar of Christ on earth-- That he is granting them heaven if they do Good.. he is not changing his posistion that the merits of Christ are not good enough for all peoples salvation .. in simple words their really is no change .. if you have faith in the pope as the vicar of Christ and do what he deems is Good .. he alows you to enter heaven ..

AND LUTHER IS STILL DAMED TO HELL ..
since he beleived the perfect merits of Christ alone won all people heaven and faith in that unchanging fact was the hand the holy spirit gave you to reach out and receive he heaven Christ allready has won for you by his perfect life and bloody death in your stead..

====================================================================================

vicar======= i think its originaly comes from a german word---- the meaning is probaly close to -------- agent of ,acting as, or in place of ..

for an example
My church body uses the term vicar for 3 year seminary students who are not yet pastors but are called by a congregation and used to act as our pastor would give sermons etc during our pastors absence
they represent the pastor in his absence ...

Lutherans believe Christ is where two or thee people meet in his name .. And that Christ also is in every christian who has faith in him..
so we find it rather SHOCKING that the pope would use the name vicar of Christ as if Christ was absent
from his Christan people
And needed a fill in .

The verse "the law came through moses Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.."

so if the pope realy is Christs agent OF Grace .. The very first pope should have done away with purgatory..
and where the grace they showed to Luther or John huss before him?

Dodo_David · Oct 16, 2013

I read that interview with Pope Francis.

I am wondering if he considers it impossible for mere mortals to turn people into believers in Jesus.

After all, in John 6:44 (ESV), Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

So, what are mere mortals to do for people until God the Father draws them to Jesus?

musterion · Oct 17, 2013

Dodo_David said:
So, what are mere mortals to do for people until God the Father draws them to Jesus?

If they're saved, they'll share the Gospel of the grace of God anyway. If they're not, they won't because they never believed it themselves no matter how sincerely religious they may be.

The real issue here, which a few posters here appear not to get (or just don't want to), is not that if everyone obeyed their consciences the world would be a much better place. That was not the point of the start of the pope's conversation. Rather, he clearly said it is possible for Christ-rejecters to still please God without faith, as long as they sincerely did what they thought was right and really tried to obey their consciences. He's (so far) stuck to his guns three times now despite growing noise from angry Catholics around the world.

The problem is, God's Word says without faith it is impossible to please Him. Faith in what? Your own conduct? Your own good works? Keeping a clean conscience? Faith in God helping you climb the big golden ladder? No. Without faith in His Son alone as the satisfaction for your sin, it is impossible to reach the Father. That is what God requires of ANY who wish to come unto Him.

Which means one of them - the Bible or the pope - is wrong.

aspen2 said:
That type of thinking is based in fear, not faith in the love and character of God.

I go by what the apostles, to a man, all said. If you're as content to contradict the Gospel by loving lost people right into the Lake of Fire as you as you appear to be, you'll answer to Christ for it if you're saved, or will join them there yourself if you're not.

The pope triples down on his univeralism

New Member

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

New Member

New Member

New Member

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

New Member

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

Active Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

New Member

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

Well-Known Member

New Member

Melmacian in human guise

New Member

Similar threads