I am reading a book where the woman died, woke up in heaven, and then was resuscitated by the doctors. Does anyone believe that these accounts are accurate? Is it sinful to read these books? There are several I would like to read, but I don't want to read anything I shouldn't be reading. This woman said our souls existed before we were born and we knew God.
Near-death experiences
- Thread starter Sweet Pea
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One does not have to die to visit Heaven. I know couple of people whom God took there for a little while. All of them want to go back and stay there.
What about people of other religions? I just looked it up and read an account where all they were told is to love. I've also read really negative ones where people said they went to hell and were told to change. How can it be so different for some people?
Consider what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 12:
I realize some may argue that Paul might have been in a different place from where this woman claims to have been, or that Paul might have heard different things from what this woman claims to have heard. But I still find it highly unlikely that the Apostle Paul was not allowed to tell anything that he saw or heard (at least, he didn't tell anything) and yet this woman is allowed to fill a whole book with it.
There are other reasons we should disbelieve this kind of revelation today, as well, but that discussion is broader than the scope of this thread (and it's also likely to be divisive, and I'm trying to follow aspen's admonition from a recent thread
).
The man Paul is talking about is himself. He was caught up into heaven, but he was not allowed to share what he saw there. He says that the things he heard there "cannon be told, which man may not utter."
I realize some may argue that Paul might have been in a different place from where this woman claims to have been, or that Paul might have heard different things from what this woman claims to have heard. But I still find it highly unlikely that the Apostle Paul was not allowed to tell anything that he saw or heard (at least, he didn't tell anything) and yet this woman is allowed to fill a whole book with it.
There are other reasons we should disbelieve this kind of revelation today, as well, but that discussion is broader than the scope of this thread (and it's also likely to be divisive, and I'm trying to follow aspen's admonition from a recent thread
).So you don't think these experiences are real? You definitely have a good point about how he wasn't supposed to tell certain things. In the book I'm reading, the woman said she knew more while she was there, but couldn't remember the rest after she came back.SolaGratia said:Consider what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 12:
The man Paul is talking about is himself. He was caught up into heaven, but he was not allowed to share what he saw there. He says that the things he heard there "cannon be told, which man may not utter."
I realize some may argue that Paul might have been in a different place from where this woman claims to have been, or that Paul might have heard different things from what this woman claims to have heard. But I still find it highly unlikely that the Apostle Paul was not allowed to tell anything that he saw or heard (at least, he didn't tell anything) and yet this woman is allowed to fill a whole book with it.
There are other reasons we should disbelieve this kind of revelation today, as well, but that discussion is broader than the scope of this thread (and it's also likely to be divisive, and I'm trying to follow aspen's admonition from a recent thread
That is correct. I do not believe those experiences are real. I do not know whether she believes they were real or not. She might be deceived or she might be a charlatan. But I do not believe that she died and went to heaven.Sweet Pea said:
This is why it is not very helpful to study personal experiences of others instead of seeking your own. You do not have to be clinically dead to have your own experiences.
Personal testimonies are just that, personal testimonies. You believe them if you know that person really well and see what personal experience does in the life of that person.
Thank you for your responses, both of you.
I was reminded of the Bible verse that many will come, some in Jesus' name, and deceive many. A lot of NDE's sound like a lot of New Age Mysticism. Acceptance and tolerance of all.
Here's another verse: II Timothy 4: 3-4: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
Another quote from a Christian website: "In this way people of all faiths are tricked into believing that there is no accountability, or no judgment."
I've been thinking about this all day... I hope I didn't make it sound like the woman in the book I read was lying or being a deceiver. After I read her book, I looked up other NDE's online and that is where I read all the New Age type stuff I mentioned in my last post. Like SolaGratia said, we don't know if her account is the real thing or not and we have to be discerning so we are not tricked. I hope I didn't sound too harsh.
I was reminded of the Bible verse that many will come, some in Jesus' name, and deceive many. A lot of NDE's sound like a lot of New Age Mysticism. Acceptance and tolerance of all.
Here's another verse: II Timothy 4: 3-4: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
Another quote from a Christian website: "In this way people of all faiths are tricked into believing that there is no accountability, or no judgment."
I've been thinking about this all day... I hope I didn't make it sound like the woman in the book I read was lying or being a deceiver. After I read her book, I looked up other NDE's online and that is where I read all the New Age type stuff I mentioned in my last post. Like SolaGratia said, we don't know if her account is the real thing or not and we have to be discerning so we are not tricked. I hope I didn't sound too harsh.
.Sweet Pea said:
Sweet Pea ..... You sound wise and careful (good) .... I do not feel it is sinful to read of those (NDE) experiences .... just do not get too wrapped up in them
I read the first book ever written about the subject .... at least 40 years ago .... it was written by a medical doctor who kept hearing the same (NDE) stories from patients who died (operating table) and they were later resuscitated .... he then spent many years interviewing (worldwide) people who experienced the same.
There are so many similarities between cases it sounds legitimate
He did his research before internet and mass communication .... there is no way individual stories could have been shared or exchanged back then .... as a matter of fact it was pretty much an "unknown" subject at the time .... except for the people who had gone thru (NDE)
Thank you Suhar ..... I am one of those .... I was "there" for about 30-40 seconds .... I cannot wait to go back.Suhar said:
I was there to be given specific scriptures regarding a specific event happening here on earth at that exact moment .... it is a nugget of unfulfilled OT prophecy .... it is positive in context.
It involves Israel .... the Nation in the Middle East.
Best wishes.
.Sweet Pea said:
You make a good point .... there have been many non-Christians who say they experienced the "Love of God" during their NDE .... and they spend the rest of their lives focusing on "love" for fellow man
This is difficult for us (Christians) because we feel they are "outside the loop" .... we feel those experiences should be exclusive to us (Christians)
For that reason many (Christians) say NDE's are from the devil
That is why NDE's become a difficult subject for us (Christians)
Yet Jesus Himself proclaimed "love" as the most important doctrine
I do not know of any example of "Love" coming from the devil
Yet we must be careful.
I am currently reading a book called Proof of Heaven, written by a neurosurgeon who was an atheist and a naysayer concerning nde's until he experienced one himself. He too, had a profound and life changing encounter with love. I have not enjoyed all the nde testimonies I've heard about, but I'm not going to say they don't happen. They are real enough for those who have them.
Arnie Manitoba said:
King James Bible
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:5
King James Bible
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:11
King James Bible
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1
These are a few of the verses that I remembered and thought were important.
On the other hand, we have this:
[SIZE=.75em]17 [/SIZE]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:17
Obviously, we need to be careful and discerning. I'll have study Acts 2:17 for sure to see how it applies.
I think we need to look at the Bible to see if what the people (who have these NDE's) say is biblical.
[SIZE=11pt]ETA:I stayed up really late last night researching it, LOL. I found some Christian websites that said we should not listen to these books because they are adding information (we are not to add or take away from the Bible). Some claim to be inspired by God... like the Bible! They are teaching New Age mysticism and tolerance of other religions... kinda like the One World Religion. What do you think?[/SIZE]
Anyway, as far as the Christians that are having these near-death experiences... the websites I read recommended comparing them to the Bible and rejecting any that teach something contrary to the Bible because this would make them demonic. Thoughts?
Have you heard of Heaven is for Real? The book about the little tiny boy who went to Heaven? His dad is a pastor. Well, this book is now being made into a movie. I don't think it's by a Christian company either... I think it's a Hollywood movie. I've definitely got my guard up. Is this movie a good idea?
Hello Sweet pea, I have just read your posts with interest, it seems to me you are on the right track (especially from your last post) "I think we need to look at the Bible to see if what the people (who have these NDE's) say is biblical."
I have nearly finished reading a book that deals with the results of the "deliverance ministries" (exorcisms) of the 80's and 90's "Beware of Angels: Deceptions in the last days". Although not specifically about NDE's it does delve into the practices and dangers of dealing with familiar spirits, out of body experiences etc. (I am) Not wanting to take away from biblical sources, rather this book magnifies them, in particular Matthew 27:24-54. It's message (to me) magnifies the power of claiming the blood of Christ in prayer and in the ministry of the author R. J Morneau. (RIP). (Sorry, I didn't intend to write a promo for the book).
I did want to add just one thought to the discussion on the topic.
The first lie that the subtle serpent told our Mother Eve, Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:".
From this one lie has born all types of deceitfulness and error. (Hot topic: The immortality of the soul. How does this doctorine compare to what is recorded in the bible?)
My verses for contribution are...
Isaiah 8
19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
2 Corinthians
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
...13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
It seems more & more clear to me that Satan is using Jesus own words against him.
Mark 3:25 "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand".
... Sorry, Again, I am starting to rant and go off on a tangent and have written WAY more than I intended.
(P.S. For what it is worth, I have had strong feelings and a "vision" (which some might describe as an out of body experience) relating to people I know & love who were in great distress [and 900-1200 miles away]. Although raised in a christian family, at the time I was most definitely not a christian, nor living as one. At the time, because of my upbringing I attributed these experiences to God helping me to look out for the ones I love and care for. I still do not know the origin of these experiences for certain, but what i do know is that Satan will use any avenue he can to draw us away from Jesus. I do not beleive these experiences involved my soul leaving my body, as the bible does not support this doctrine.)
I have nearly finished reading a book that deals with the results of the "deliverance ministries" (exorcisms) of the 80's and 90's "Beware of Angels: Deceptions in the last days". Although not specifically about NDE's it does delve into the practices and dangers of dealing with familiar spirits, out of body experiences etc. (I am) Not wanting to take away from biblical sources, rather this book magnifies them, in particular Matthew 27:24-54. It's message (to me) magnifies the power of claiming the blood of Christ in prayer and in the ministry of the author R. J Morneau. (RIP). (Sorry, I didn't intend to write a promo for the book).
I did want to add just one thought to the discussion on the topic.
The first lie that the subtle serpent told our Mother Eve, Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:".
From this one lie has born all types of deceitfulness and error. (Hot topic: The immortality of the soul. How does this doctorine compare to what is recorded in the bible?)
My verses for contribution are...
Isaiah 8
19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
2 Corinthians
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
...13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
It seems more & more clear to me that Satan is using Jesus own words against him.
Mark 3:25 "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand".
... Sorry, Again, I am starting to rant and go off on a tangent and have written WAY more than I intended.
(P.S. For what it is worth, I have had strong feelings and a "vision" (which some might describe as an out of body experience) relating to people I know & love who were in great distress [and 900-1200 miles away]. Although raised in a christian family, at the time I was most definitely not a christian, nor living as one. At the time, because of my upbringing I attributed these experiences to God helping me to look out for the ones I love and care for. I still do not know the origin of these experiences for certain, but what i do know is that Satan will use any avenue he can to draw us away from Jesus. I do not beleive these experiences involved my soul leaving my body, as the bible does not support this doctrine.)
brrrilliantsteve said:
Thank you so much for that. I feel like everything is very clear when I read biblical verses that apply and then, self-doubt creeps in and I start wondering what if I am wrong? So it makes it hard to make a decision on such things.
I totally get what you are saying about the devil trying to divide God's house. I feel like if I speak up about these things, it can cause controversy and I don't want to do that. I don't want to insult another Christian. I also don't want to accidentally blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
I posted this on another forum and it applies here:
Last night, I read a rebuttal to the NDE book I read earlier... the author used scripture to support his belief that the NDE I read about was unbiblical.
I totally understand why you want to have no opinions... I feel the same way myself. I was worried, though, because the author of the rebuttal said that may be causing harm, though... if no one speaks up when something is contradicting scripture, we allow what he said was a false message to be spread and do harm (to both non-believers and believers).
So, when should we speak up? What if we turned out to be wrong? See, the devil causes confusion.
There is not a verse in the Bible that says we existed before we were born. For us, our existence started in the womb.Sweet Pea said:
Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
Adam and Eve's existence began on the 6th day of Creation Week.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Adam was not given a soul, but he became a living soul. Here is a prophecy which seems to mimic in some ways Creation Week and the resurrection.
Ezekiel 37:5-10 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Those bones did not live until they were given the breath of life. The breath of life comes from God, and man is not that breath. Man is dust. And if God takes away that breath, we shall all die and become dust.
Job 34:14-15 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Dust + breath = living soul.
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
(Also, in Job 34:14-15 God gathers his spirit and is breath from man. Here, spirit most likely means the Holy Spirit. However, I want to point out that spirit can also mean the breath of life as well, Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;)
Stay away from fictitious movies like that.Sweet Pea said:
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
NDEs are unbiblical. One does not die and then immediately receive their reward. What then would be the point of the great judgment scene at the end of the 1000 years? What would be the point of resurrecting someone who supposedly had gone to a place of burning for all eternity, judge them by their works, and then cast back into a place of burning for all eternity, if they had already been there? And, what is the point of resurrecting someone who has already gone to heaven, just to come back to their bodies, and then go back into heaven?
Those experiencing NDEs have not died, gone to heaven, and come back. Those who die shall not receive whatever reward they are to get until one of the two resurrections.
Job 14:10-15 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order(A set time appointed, and remembered as Job mentioned): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Corinthians 15:52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed(Job spoke of being in the grave until his change came). 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
A rebuttle to those who say absent from the body means present with the Lord immediately at death. First, 2 Corinthians 5:8 is talking about the resurrection, as verse 4 talks about when mortality is swallowed up with life. Second, the Scriptures show that at the resurrection, THEN shall we ever be with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
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