Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

TrevorHL said:

Greetings again GodsGrace,

You are redefining the phrase to fit your theology. Jesus was begotten by God his father.

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No.
I'm not fitting anything into MY theology.
Are you like the armoured guy?

I don't have MY theology.
I didn't invent the christian religion.
It was here before I was born.

it's been here for two millinia.

What I post on these threads is what the church has taught from the beginning.

I know what it taught because a few, quite a few, years ago I spent some time studying church history.
I found out what the EARLY CHURCH,,,,
you know
the one the Apostles belonged to and those that the Apostles taught...
believed and taught.

I came to understand that if anyone knows what Jesus taught...
it must certainly be the Apostles and those that the Apostles taught.
Like, for isntance
IGNATIUS OF ANTOCH
CLEMENT OF ROME
JUSTIN MARTYR
POLYCARP
IRENAEUS

I'd stop around there...about 180AD

TrevorHL said:

Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Matthew 1:20 (KJV): But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (mg GK: begotten) in her is of the Holy Spirit.

There is no such entity as God the Son. Jesus was created and became the firstborn of the New Creation.
Psalm 8:1–6 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Matthew 11:25–30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The credentials for being a Christian is to believe the Gospel that Jesus and the Apostles taught, not what the corrupt Church taught in the 3rd and 4th Centuries.

Kind regards
Trevor

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No Trevor
The credentials for being defined as CHRISTIAN is what the church has defined
NOT what you have defined.

And as to the corrupt church:

1. YOU HATE THE VERY CHURCH THAT KEPT CHRISTIANITY SAFE FOR YOU.

2. GOOD IDEA NOT TO STUDY ANY CHURCH HISTORY....YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY LEARN SOMETHING...
AND NOT THE GARBAGE ON YOUTUBE.

3. ISN'T IT IRONIC THAT YOU POSTED ABOVE SCRIPTURE FOUND IN THE VERY BIBLE THE EARLY CHURCH COMPILED FOR YOU. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THIS NEW TESTAMENT COMPILED BY A CORRUPT CHURCH?
THE HOLY SPIRIT YOU SAY?
THE SAME HOLY SPIRIT THAT KEPT THE CHURCH SAFE FROM EVEN THE ISLAMIC CONQUEST?
I THINK YOU SHOULD THANK THE EARLY CHURCH
INSTEAD OF HATING IT.

TrevorHL said:

Greetings again Justified and GodsGrace,

I do have a personal answer to what you quoted, but could find it difficult to give a satisfactory answer that you would be able to accept. Part of the answer would be to start with Exodus 3:14 where God's Name is revealed as "I will be". I am not sure that we would get past this first essential step.

A gradual change occurred over the Centuries and also on the other hand the history of how Constantine came to power and what he represented.

Yes, Luke records this, and it did not have to wait to the 3rd and 4th Centuries or for your new definition. The record of the use of the word "Christian" and its meaning is found in Acts 11:
Acts 11:22–26 (KJV): 22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch. 23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord. 24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord. 25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

I do not use the term "hate", but I recognise it for what it is. "SAFE"? The RCC persecuted the faithful for 1260 years as taught by Daniel 7.

God preserved the Bible despite the character of the corrupt Church.

Kind regards
Trevor

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Trevor,
I've been saying this from the start:
You HATE the CC.

This is what I have to say to you:

WHY do you use a book that a church that you HATE compiled?

I mean, really,,,,I WOULD NOT use such a book.

If a corrupted church publishes a book...
why would anyone want to read it?

Seems that you don't understand, due to your hatred, that just as God kept His words safe...
He also kept safe the denomination that was to disseminate those words.

You keep wanting to post everything the CC did wrong but are unwilling to accept what it did right.

IF it were not for the CC,,,we would not be on this forum.

Stop watching YouTube and the Catholic haters and learn some history.

And I want to say this to @Justified too....
he might be younger than I am...

but I'm really tired of having this conversation with folk that think history ended with Acts.
This is pure ignorance.

If he wishes to continue this discussion with you...God bless him.

I'm done here.

JustMe said:

What you say is such a ridiculous statement. You are blind to the truth in scripture and your credibility is shot.

Does scripture say 'God the Son' or the 'Son of God?' You can believe the former and I'll believe in the latter, that is also written in scripture, hundreds of times. The Son of God is very understandable whilst the expression 'God the Son' is not in Scripture at all. It is made-up by people who do not believe in the true Son of God and who mock God's Son and God himself.

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LOL

@Justified states that we should believe what the bible says....

and YOUR reply is that it's a rediculous statement?

And THIS, ladies and gentlemen, is why Christianity, as a religion, is in deep trouble.

You see JustdMe....YOU don't get to decide what scripture teaches.
Those who heard Jesus and learned from HIM have already decided what to teach.

Because YOU don't either agree or understand it has no bearing on its truthfulness.

Why don't you do this....
Find out what the Apostles taught others instead of making up your very own theology.

Here are some examples.
And please don't tell me these persons are not inspired as if YOU are.




JESUS IS GOD EARLY CHURCH FATHERS



Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1

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Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.2

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Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.3

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There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.4

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For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.5

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Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.6

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For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.7

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I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.8

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Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.9

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Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.10

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Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.11

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Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.12

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The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....13

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For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.14

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@JustMe

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Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.

He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—God put to death! ... n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.15

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Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.

For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.16

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He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.17

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Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.18

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Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.19

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Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man.... [W]e should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh.20

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Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,

This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.... The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.21

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For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God....22

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@JustMe

Tertullian (AD 150-225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,

For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.23

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Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.... That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united.24

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Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other , and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that they are distinct from each other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another. Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, “I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter...even the Spirit of truth,” thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and Son amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality?25

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As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.26

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Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,

The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.27

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For, lo, the Only-begotten entered, a soul among souls, God the Word with a (human) soul. For His body lay in the tomb, not emptied of divinity; but as, while in Hades, He was in essential being with His Father, so was He also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father; and He comprehends all things in Himself.28

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For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word.29

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Let us believe then, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that God the Word came down from heaven, (and entered) into the holy Virgin Mary, in order that, taking the flesh from her, and assuming also a human, by which I mean a rational soul, and becoming thus all that man is with the exception of sin, He might save fallen man, and confer immortality on men who believe on His name.... He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man. For it was not in mere appearance or by conversion, but in truth, that He became man. Thus then, too, though demonstrated as God, He does not refuse the conditions proper to Him as man, since He hungers and toils and thirsts in weariness, and flees in fear, and prays in trouble. And He who as God has a sleepless nature, slumbers on a pillow.30

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Armour of God said:

You said that people who don't understand should just accept what your saying. That's hardcore. Very authoritarian

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Armour,
I said no such thing.
Please go back and reread what I said.

Armour of God said:

So if you say something to me in Italian I won't understand it yet you expect me to just accept it still. Even though it makes no sense to me. Think about it. That's just insane.

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I bellieve the bible YOU are reading is in English.
Do you understand English?

Do you accept what the NT is teaching you?

Armour of God said:

I accept that people have their own beliefs. You obviously don't accept that. But even worse you don't accept that some people won't understand your beliefs. That's wild

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Well Armour....
it's like this.

YOU are not supposed to have your own beliefs.

It says CHRISTIAN under your avatar.

You're supposed to have CHRISTIAN beliefs.
These beliefs have already been estblished.
YOU just have to accept them.

Here are some core Christian tenets that must be accepted in order to be DEFINED as Christian:

JESUS IS GOD
HENCE: THE TRINITY
JESUS HAS TWO NATURES: HUMAN/DIVINE
JESUS' DEATH AND RESURRECTION
JUDGEMENT
SALVATION BY FAITH
BIBLE AS OUR ONLY AUTHORITY
SINFULNESS OF MAN
THE ATONEMENT


We cannot be making up our own religion...which is what you are advocating.

There is only ONE Christian religion...not many.

Armour of God said:

There are many things that I don't understand theologically and otherwise, I don't condemn people for not understanding and I accept that people will have different beliefs unlike yourself.

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Please post where I condemned you.
thanks.

Armour of God said:

Condemning people for not understanding the trinity is quite astonishing considering the RCC doesn't even fully understand it and they invented it, they admit its a mystery.
You think your the Pope or something. All must follow you even if they don't understand

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The Trinity is in the NT.....perhaps you haven't noticed.
The early church taught NOTHING that is not found in the bible...
guess why?
The early church compiled the bible for you.
The early fathers were TAUGHT BY THE APOSTLES.

Armour of God said:

Look there are thousands of Christisn denominations all with different beliefs and understandings. The main point is that we all believe in God and we all believe in Christ. That's all that really matters to me

God bless

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It could be all that matters to YOU...ù
which is fine.

But I'm concerned about the Christian RELIGION becoming extinct because of those that think as you do.

TrevorHL said:

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I have already responded to this false accusation.


I have already responded to this false concept. Not worth repeating what I stated.

Your theme has been effectively disproved.

Kind regards
Trevor

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By who Trevor?
By YOU?

So?
YOU don't make the rules for the Christian religion/faith.

Lambano said:

Notice the Early Church Fathers called Jesus their "God", but they hadn't worked out the details yet. Just flattening it out to "Jesus is God" also includes subordinationism, Sabellianism, monarchal modalism, Arianism, adoptionism, polytheism, and probably a few more heresies. They did not necessarily believe in Trinitarianism as later Councils would eventually define it. This only argues against believing in a merely human Jesus.

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I agree that Jesus was not fully understood.
But, as you said, it was worked out and it explains this man Jesus very well.