Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

Bladerunner · Apr 25, 2026

seer said:
If the Bible teaches Michael is Jesus then it's simply a matter of pointing out where scripture teaches that as yet though I have not found anywhere where it does.

believe I just said the opposite. they are not the same. Michael is the Arc Angel of Heaven while Jesus is GOD>

seer · Apr 25, 2026

Bladerunner said:
believe I just said the opposite. they are not the same. Michael is the Arc Angel of Heaven while Jesus is GOD>

Agreed Bladerunner, that's how I also understand it.

rebuilder 454 · Apr 26, 2026

seer said:
Evidently there a a few denominations that teach Michael is Jesus, what are your thoughts on that ?

Michael is a created being.
Ask "aunty" if Jesus is also a created being.

....and yes, watchtower,( "aunty"), in the past, declared Jesus and Michael to be the same beings.
Now they say they are both created, but different created beings.

Pitiful

rebuilder 454 · Apr 26, 2026

Aunty Jane said:
I believe they could be...yes, but it’s no big deal if they aren’t either......it’s the role they play that counts, not their name. We know Jesus has more than one name, and that Michael also fits the description of God’s champion.....

Not even close.
Jesus is the creator, which you defy.

rebuilder 454 · Apr 26, 2026

Aunty Jane said:
As God’s “only begotten.....his “firstborn” among many “sons”, what is it that makes this Son so unique?

Two Scriptures come to mind....
Col 1 :15-17 describes Jesus as “the firstborn of all creation”, which to me means that he was the first and only direct creation of the Father alone....all other creation came through the agency of the son....”all creation came through him and for him”....an odd thing for God to say about himself.

The other Scripture is in Rev 3:14.....which calls Jesus “the beginning of God’s creation”....and since Jesus was the one who conveyed the Revelation from God to John, he was speaking about himself.....

In Rev 3:12 Jesus calls his Father “my God” four times in that one verse....he has been back in heaven for over 50 years. Does God himself have a god even in heaven?

Only the trinity doctrine argues with God’s word on this one belief held by the majority in Christendom....yet for the first 300 years of “Christianity” there was no official doctrine of the trinity because the Bible never mentions it. The reason being that the first Christians were all Jewish and they did not have any notion of a triune God...their God Yahweh was one...not three. (Deut 6:4)

It took the apostate church that long and through much controversy to make it an official teaching of the church....and that from a church which Jesus warned would be misled by satan....the “weeds” of his parable.

We also have the clear unequivocal words of the apostles, collectively stating....
“For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (NASB)

For those taught by Jesus Christ himself...there was only “one God...the Father”...and their “one Lord” was Jesus Christ.....there is no confusion there, showing that the trinity was not around when the apostles wrote their contributions to Scripture.
Even up to John’s Revelation, given at the end of the first century, where he stated that Jesus was “the beginning of God’s creation”.

I’m pretty sure that if Jesus said he was God incarnate, they would know....yet they never specifically said.....but ambiguous verses have been offered through the centuries to try and make it stick......it apparently worked, as the majority believe it....the trouble is, it’s not the majority who will be found on the road to life. (Matt 7:13-14)

Putting another “god” in place of the Father is a breach of the first Commandment (Exodus 20:3)......something no God-fearing Jew would ever accept. But apostate “Christians” far removed from the apostles’ teachings have kept the doctrine alive......just like hell....another non existent church teaching.

This was a description from Daniel who was given the vision. He was an old man and Jesus’ birth was still 500 years into the future.
If Jesus was the one leading this battle in vision, he would appear to be “one of the foremost Princes” to Daniel.
Do we really know about rank among God’s spirit sons? What are angels? What are cherubs? What are Seraphs? We only have glimpses....

One other thing that distinguishes Michael as “the great Prince” is the fact that he alone is called “the Archangel Michael”.
In the book of Daniel, Michael is described as fighting wicked demons in behalf of God’s people. (Daniel 10:13; 12:1)
In the inspired letter of Jude, Michael confronts Satan in a dispute over Moses’ body. (Jude 9)
The book of Revelation shows that Michael wars with Satan and his demons and casts them out of heaven. (Rev 12:7-9)
No other angel is portrayed as having such great power and authority over God’s enemies. It’s no wonder, then, that the Bible appropriately refers to Michael as “the archangel,.....the prefix “arch” meaning “chief,” or “principal.”
If he is the Chief and Commander of the angelic army, he is not God, but is himself under God’s command. (1 Cor 11:3) This also puts Jesus and Michael on the same level. Both are described as having angels under their command. There can only be one Chief Angel....a position that in no way diminishes Jesus in the service of his God....he is always depicted as at his Father’s right hand....and yet the Holy Spirit is never said to be at his left.....

And at the final battle, it is Jesus and his angelic forces who bring down satan’s rulership....in Rev 3:12 Jesus talks about his “new name”.....in his role as King of God’s Kingdom.....so Jesus has more than one name....

QUOTE
"In Rev 3:12 Jesus calls his Father “my God” four times in that one verse....he has been back in heaven for over 50 years. Does God himself have a god even in heaven?"

You are trying, as all cults do, to mentally unpack God's word.

GOD is a spirit

His book is a spirit book.
Trying to make that book fit your thinking is what we saw in the Pharisees.

Your watchtower workbook is poorly thought out.

Hebrews 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
The Father, Calling the Son, "God".

The Light · Apr 26, 2026

Trekson said:
Rev. 14 is a flash forward to the start of the millennium when one realizes the 144,000 aren't in heaven, they are on earth.

The 144,000 from 12 tribes of Israel are first fruits of the second harvest. They are redeemed from the earth and are in heaven before the throne of God.

Revelation 14.
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The harvest that the 144,000 are first fruits of occurs immediately after the great tribulation and before the wrath of God. It occurs at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins which contains 7 trumpets and 7 vials.

rebuilder 454 · Apr 26, 2026

The Light said:
The 144,000 from 12 tribes of Israel are first fruits of the second harvest. They are redeemed from the earth and are in heaven before the throne of God.

Revelation 14.
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The harvest that the 144,000 are first fruits of occurs immediately after the great tribulation and before the wrath of God. It occurs at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins which contains 7 trumpets and 7 vials.

Most here have no idea of anything concerning firstfruits.

Trekson · Apr 26, 2026

The Light said:
The 144,000 from 12 tribes of Israel are first fruits of the second harvest. They are redeemed from the earth and are in heaven before the throne of God.

Revelation 14.
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The harvest that the 144,000 are first fruits of occurs immediately after the great tribulation and before the wrath of God. It occurs at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins which contains 7 trumpets and 7 vials.

It could be either heaven or hell because wherever Christ goes, they follow, but there is no harvest mentioned related to the 6th seal, nor the 5th if that's what you meant. The 5th seal martyrs are part of the still here church that died because of the GT upon the church that Christ spoke about in Rev. 24.

The Light · Apr 26, 2026

rebuilder 454 said:
Most here have no idea of anything concerning firstfruits.

Agreed. Which is why most have no clue there will be two raptures. Which is why many have no clue that there will be a rapture before the great tribulation, and it will be the Church.

The Light · Apr 26, 2026

Trekson said:
but there is no harvest mentioned related to the 6th seal,

I am not sure why you are unable to see a harvest at the 6th seal. It does take a little deductive reasoning but it's a simple process. I'll try to lay it out for you.

When the 6th seal is opened the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

We see in Matthew 24 that the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. With a little deductive reasoning we can conclude that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal using these two passages.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We also should be able to conclude that Jesus returns and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. There is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

Here is another view of the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The Light · Apr 26, 2026

Trekson said:
The 5th seal martyrs are part of the still here church that died because of the GT upon the church

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Trekson said:
that Christ spoke about in Rev. 24.

Do you mean Rev 14?

Trekson · Apr 26, 2026

The Light said:
I am not sure why you are unable to see a harvest at the 6th seal. It does take a little deductive reasoning but it's a simple process. I'll try to lay it out for you.

When the 6th seal is opened the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

We see in Matthew 24 that the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. With a little deductive reasoning we can conclude that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal using these two passages.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We also should be able to conclude that Jesus returns and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. There is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

Here is another view of the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

I believe Matt. 24:29-31 is speaking of the rapture and is the same harvest you deduce in Rev. 6 of which actually occurs in Rev. 7:9-14 speaking of those from Rev. 6:11 and it is the rapture/resurrection of the church. The events of Rev. 7 are still those of the 6th seal.

The Light said:
The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Do you mean Rev 14?

No, I meant Matt. 24. In Rev. 5 the word "us" is a mistranslation.

ewq1938 · Apr 26, 2026

The Light said:
Agreed. Which is why most have no clue there will be two raptures.

Because two raptures of the saints is unbiblical.

ewq1938 · Apr 26, 2026

Trekson said:
No, I meant Matt. 24. In Rev. 5 the word "us" is a mistranslation.

Can you explain how that could even be possible?

G2248
ἡμᾶς
hēmas
hay-mas'
Accusative plural of G1473; us: - our, us, we.
Total KJV occurrences: 180

The Light · Apr 26, 2026

Trekson said:
I believe Matt. 24:29-31 is speaking of the rapture and is the same harvest you deduce in Rev. 6 of which actually occurs in Rev. 7:9-14 speaking of those from Rev. 6:11 and it is the rapture/resurrection of the church. The events of Rev. 7 are still those of the 6th seal.

No sir. Matthew 24:29-31 is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven (as they are already in heaven) and the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. The 144,000 are the first fruits of this harvest from the earth. We can see the results of this harvest in Revelation 15 (which is another view of Revelation 7).

Those raptured are of the 12 tribes as they are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Israel, those that flee to a place of protection, remain on the earth during the wrath of God. The Jews around the world, which are the seed of the woman are raptured from the earth. If the great tribulation was not cut short there would be no flesh alive that would be raptured to heaven. All that would be raptured would come from the grave. For the elect sake, the great tribulation is cut short.

All return to heaven (the Church and the raptured 12 tribes) for the marriage supper of the Lamb. All remain in heaven during the ONE YEAR wrath of God. After one year the armies of heaven come to the earth for Armageddon.

Trekson said:
No, I meant Matt. 24. In Rev. 5 the word "us" is a mistranslation.

They are the Church.

Christ has returned as we can see the 24 elders have their crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The Light · Apr 26, 2026

ewq1938 said:
Because two raptures of the saints is unbiblical.

How so? It's all over the Word of God.

ewq1938 · Apr 27, 2026

The Light said:
How so? It's all over the Word of God.

It is not. There is one end times event where the saints will be changed and caught up/raptured to the clouds. It happens one time.

seer · Apr 27, 2026

ewq1938 said:
It is not. There is one end times event where the saints will be changed and caught up/raptured to the clouds. It happens one time.

Isn't that the pre-trib rapture as taught by Paul ?

ewq1938 · Apr 27, 2026

seer said:
Isn't that the pre-trib rapture as taught by Paul ?

Paul taught a post trib rapture directly tied to the second coming which the bible also places after the trib.

seer · Apr 27, 2026

ewq1938 said:
Paul taught a post trib rapture directly tied to the second coming which the bible also places after the trib.

Pre-trib for me but always prepared to listen to why others think differently.

Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

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