Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,725
2,484
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So you are claiming that "the word of God" in the verse below is the Old Testament?
Therefore: faith comes by hearing and hearing by the old testament?

rwb said:
Why is the BIBLE, THE WRITTEN WORD of GOD THE SOURCE for LIFE?
We read: Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The verse is not explicitly found in the Old Testament! However, the doctrine (teaching) that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (gospel) certainly is! That is how Abraham was able to believe God (have faith) that God accredits to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:16 (KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Genesis 12:1-3 (KJV)
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 17:19 (KJV) And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Genesis 18:18-19 (KJV) Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Ga 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The verse is not explicitly found in the Old Testament! However, the doctrine (teaching) that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (gospel) certainly is! That is how Abraham was able to believe God (have faith) that God accredits to him for righteousness.
So now "the word of God" is the gospel? Certainly part of it.
This is more support for my position that "the word of God" in Rom. 10:17 is not the Bible. (66 books)

rwb said:
Why is the BIBLE, THE WRITTEN WORD of GOD THE SOURCE for LIFE?
We read: Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,725
2,484
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So now "the word of God" is the gospel? Certainly part of it.
This is more support for my position that "the word of God" in Rom. 10:17 is not the Bible. (66 books)

rwb said:
Why is the BIBLE, THE WRITTEN WORD of GOD THE SOURCE for LIFE?
We read: Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It appears the problem lies within the fact that you don't KNOW THE WORD, or rather you have NOT UNDERSTANDING of THE WORD!

Of course, the gospel is the WORD OF GOD!

John 1:1-2 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hear the Word of the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed of Old promising THE Messiah who was to come!

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:16 (KJV) And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Matthew 1:20-23 (KJV) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
 

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
2,424
1,486
113
46
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So now "the word of God" is the gospel? Certainly part of it.
This is more support for my position that "the word of God" in Rom. 10:17 is not the Bible. (66 books)

rwb said:
Why is the BIBLE, THE WRITTEN WORD of GOD THE SOURCE for LIFE?
We read: Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
"The word of God" is an epithet for the Bible in every modern church.

However, in the actual Bible, the phrase "the Word of God" (or the Word of the LORD) seems to refer to Someone rather than something. He is the Lord who was incarnated in the person of Jesus Christ:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"The word of God" is an epithet for the Bible in every modern church.
Agree.
But is it?
However, in the actual Bible, the phrase "the Word of God" (or the Word of the LORD) seems to refer to Someone rather than something. He is the Lord who was incarnated in the person of Jesus Christ:
I tend to think of the prophets for the word of God.
Or as it says: "the word of the Lord came to... "
That is God's word. Direct from the source.

  • Genesis 15:1
    After this, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision:
    “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward.”

  • 1 Samuel 15:10
    Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel:

  • 2 Samuel 7:4
    But that night the word of the Lord came to Nathan, saying:

  • 1 Kings 6:11
    The word of the Lord came to Solomon:

  • 1 Kings 13:17
    I have been told by the word of the Lord: ‘You must not eat bread or drink water there or return by the way you came.’”

  • 1 Kings 13:20
    While they were sitting at the table, the word of the Lord came to the old prophet who had brought him back.

  • 1 Kings 16:1
    Then the word of the Lord came to Jehu son o fHanani concerning Baasha:

  • 1 Kings 17:2
    Then the word of the Lord came to Elijah:

  • 1 Kings 21:17
    Then the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite:

  • 1 Chronicles 22:8
    But this word of the Lord came to me: ‘You have shed much blood and have fought many wars. You are not to build a house for my Name, because you have shed much blood on theearth in my sight.

  • 2 Chronicles 11:2
    But this word of the Lord came to Shemaiah the man of God:

  • Isaiah 38:4
    Then the word of the Lord came to Isaiah:
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,725
2,484
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, the Word of the Lord came, or was given to certain men of Old and was written down that we too might KNOW the Word of the Lord. What is written are called the oracles/utterance of God given to man through Holy Writ called the Scriptures that are defined the Holy Bible. Christian Scriptures, consisting of the Old and New Testaments, regarded as the authoritative Word of God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, the Word of the Lord came, or was given to certain men of Old and was written down that we too might KNOW the Word of the Lord. What is written are called the oracles/utterance of God given to man through Holy Writ called the Scriptures that are defined the Holy Bible. Christian Scriptures, consisting of the Old and New Testaments, regarded as the authoritative Word of God.
Do you believe that the "utterance of God" ended with the old testament? No spoken prophecy today?
Jesus said His sheep hear His voice. Can you HEAR His voice?
 
Last edited:

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,902
5,973
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe that the "utterance of God" ended with the old testament? No spoken prophecy today?
Jesus His sheep hear His voice. Can you HEAR His voice?
Come on STV, tell us how many people you know who "worship the Bible"!
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,902
5,973
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You and all your pals, for starters.
I worship God of the Bible. See the diff? Of course you don't! And you still haven't told us who your god is! Don't you even know that???

Your WHOPPER noted for Judgment Day.

Rev 21 All liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire!
 
Last edited:

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
30,029
15,770
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

Bibliography is simply the writing, recording of words, knowledge About God.
A Gift.

God is Author of Knowledge…
The Creator…

AND …
God is the Source of the Understanding that Knowledge.
The Maker…

Worship unto the Creator AND Maker
AND
Thanks be unto Him for All His Provisions, Blessings and Offered Gifts any man can Freely Take.


Glory to God,
Taken
 

Pavel Mosko

Active Member
Dec 19, 2021
258
119
43
58
Boyertown
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
I have encountered some that I thought had fallen into this trap.

I asked them, "What would become of your faith if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day?"
The guilty are left mostly speechless. Or, alternatively VERY angry. How come?

To be clear, I love the Bible and use it every day. But I know the difference between the book and the author.
In my experience, my relationship with the author is much more important than my relationship with the book.
Appropriate scriptures come to my mind all day long. Due to the work of the Spirit to quicken these things to my memory.

The Bible is not omniscient. (all knowing)
The Bible is not omnipresent. (everywhere present)
The Bible is not omnipotent. (all powerful)

The Bible does NOT love me.
It's paper and ink, maybe a leather cover. (or digital info)
That cow didn't die to pay my sin debt.

A true Bibliolator will demand chapter and verse to support my premise. - LOL

The bottom line:
Let's use the Bible to grow closer to God and each other, rather than as a weapon to destroy each other.

John 13:35 NIV
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Your thread is very interesting. I think I got a higher view of Scripture and it's role in Apostolic and Nicene Christianity onward than you, but I have had issues of this exact type.

1) I have noticed a tendency of people to say "the Bible says this and that" and it comes across as an insidious unconscious way of stripping the Bible of its humanity, because the Gospels and epistles were actually named after there authors or witnesses, it basically is a type of witness testimony. Anyway I see this as very insidious, because the same people that do this often spend a lot of time talking about human fallibility, but it is almost like them trying to remove that human element from the Bible, in a way that is a little like Docetic Gnosticism etc. And I think there is often a ideological reason to do that, because they want to use proof texting as a weapon against people they disagree, never mind the fact that they themselves are also subject to their own fallibility of understanding the context and application of scripture!
 
Last edited:

Pavel Mosko

Active Member
Dec 19, 2021
258
119
43
58
Boyertown
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
I have encountered some that I thought had fallen into this trap.

I asked them, "What would become of your faith if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day?"
The guilty are left mostly speechless. Or, alternatively VERY angry. How come?

To be clear, I love the Bible and use it every day. But I know the difference between the book and the author.
In my experience, my relationship with the author is much more important than my relationship with the book.
Appropriate scriptures come to my mind all day long. Due to the work of the Spirit to quicken these things to my memory.

The Bible is not omniscient. (all knowing)
The Bible is not omnipresent. (everywhere present)
The Bible is not omnipotent. (all powerful)

The Bible does NOT love me.
It's paper and ink, maybe a leather cover. (or digital info)
That cow didn't die to pay my sin debt.

A true Bibliolator will demand chapter and verse to support my premise. - LOL

The bottom line:
Let's use the Bible to grow closer to God and each other, rather than as a weapon to destroy each other.

John 13:35 NIV
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

2) I got a second issue, namely that the Bible is so elevated it really comes across like a defacto unscriptural intermediary force between God and man. (Strangely enough The Bible actually speaks highly of the Church as the "pillar and ground of Truth" but it almost looks like folks have replaced the role of the Church with that of the Biblical canon but getting back to topic.) One example of this came from a long winded pep talk of Charismatic African Episcopal bishop. It seemed like he wanted to give a pep talk encouraging people to read their Bible. The problem was he began to conflate "the word of God" of the Bible, with things like the "Word of God" at Creation, like the Son of God, aka the Word made flesh, this came from him trying to wax poetic that "God always works with the word", and in spite of his good intentions I had to object that he was going a bit too far into some kind of unintentional heresy or sacrilege.

Besides this I have seen similar things with Calvinism and Calvinists who often have a view that can be a bit like the belief of Muslims and the Koran. Muslims believe that the Koran is the eternal spoken word of Allah, and Calvinists likewise seem to conflate the Scriptures with the Logos of God (the scriptures and all of God's plan and intentions). Anyway, in talking theology with Grok different times I eventually came up with a parody to address my frustrations. Rather than talk about how things are semi-Koranic I figured I would be more dramatic, and I came up with a scenario where Mohammed somehow time travels to Geneva and believes Calvinism from John Calvin himself but in giving witness does so in an overt blatant Islamic way bears witness to his Faith, so Grok and I came up with the following below". (I believe one motivation that made me write the parody is the Calvinists have such a lofty view of the Scriptures and their alleged clarity that it really warrants and actual creed in itself because it subtlety affects everything and ends up being a giant Elephant in the little parlor if you don't).


The Geneva Shahada of Mohammed
(To be recited with a thick Swiss-German accent and a straight face)
I bear witness — Ash-hadu — that there is no God but the Triune God alone:
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
one eternal essence in three co-equal Persons,
and I bear witness that the Holy Bible is the uncreated Word of God,
eternal with Him, proceeding from the Father through the Son in the Spirit,
not made, not originated in time, but ever-existing in the divine mind as His perfect speech.
I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
who from all eternity decreed His holy will.
I believe in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord,
the eternal Logos, the living Word made flesh,
conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary,
who suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost,
the eternal breath of God,
who spake by the prophets and apostles.
I believe the Sacred Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments —
the sixty-six books, given by inspiration of God —
are the sole, sufficient, and infallible rule of faith and practice:
Sola Scriptura, the final authority, clear in its teaching to the regenerate mind,
containing all things necessary for salvation, doctrine, worship, and life.
The Bible is not created, but uncreated speech of the Triune God,
like unto His knowledge and wisdom, eternal and immutable,
written in time by holy men moved by the Spirit, yet ever subsisting with God unchanging.
No tradition of man, no council, no pope, no imam, no new revelation,
no inner light apart from it, can bind the conscience or add to its perfection.
Whosoever denies the Trinity denies the God who speaks.
Whosoever denies Sola Scriptura denies the sufficiency of the eternal Word.
Whosoever adds to or takes from this Book shall be accursed.
Thus I testify, O Geneva:
There is no God but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
and the Bible is the uncreated, eternal Word of God.
Amen — and let the Synod hear it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
2,424
1,486
113
46
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your thread is very interesting. I think I got a higher view of Scripture and it's role in Apostolic and Nicene Christianity onward than you, but I have had issues of this exact type.

1) I have noticed a tendency of people to say "the Bible says this and that" and it comes across as an insidious unconscious way of stripping the Bible of its humanity, because the Gospels and epistles were actually named after there authors or witnesses, it basically is a type of witness testimony. Anyway I see this as very insidious, because the same people that do this often spend a lot of time talking about human fallibility, but it is almost like them trying to remove that human element from the Bible, in a way that is a little like Docetic Gnosticism etc.
Interesting
I think there is often a ideological reason to do that, because they want to use proof texting as a weapon against people they disagree, never mind the fact that they themselves are also subject to their own fallibility of understanding the context and application of scripture!
I chalk it up to laziness. Most people would rather lean on someone else's understanding of Scripture than do the work to understand it for themselves.

I sometimes wonder why those people come on message boards like this. If nothing is actually open for debate or critical inquiry, then what ARE you doing here?

edit: not you, per se
 
  • Love
Reactions: St. SteVen

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,902
5,973
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Soon everybody will believe Jesus is God and Hell Fire is EVERLASTING! Very soon.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,725
2,484
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe that the "utterance of God" ended with the old testament? No spoken prophecy today?
Jesus said His sheep hear His voice. Can you HEAR His voice?

I've never heard His voice through physical hearing; however, I do hear Him speak to my spirit (heart/mind) through His Spirit in me.

1 Corinthians 2:9-11 (KJV) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Romans 8:14-16 (KJV)
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

How do Christ's sheep hear His voice? Is it naturally, or supernaturally?

2 Corinthians 3:3 (KJV) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen