Demonic forces.

BreadOfLife · May 8, 2026

doctrox said:
Rather, your foul "asinine" originates from the Latin asininus, meaning "like an ass" or "of an ass," derived from asinus (donkey or ass).

Referring to somebody as somebody a "donkey" - or calling their remarks, “donkey-like” is not "foul language" if it was then you are accusing our LORD Jesus Christ of using foul language . . .

Matt. 21:5 (KJV)
"Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ASS, and a colt the foal of an ASS."

Do your homework . . .

doctrox said:
Regardless, you intentionally obfuscated the originator of the quote, making you a LIAR - not by slur but by scriptural definition.

Mother Teresa simply repeated a sentiment from someone made with whom she agreed. Soooo - ALL of those people who agree with Jesus and repeat His words are fraudulent??

That's pretty SHAKY logic, to say the least . . .

doctrox said:
My guess is that you are tightly bound by a Catholic deceiver.

Nope. I simply recognize a faithful servant of God; whereas, YOU are too consumed with human doubt and distrust of God . . .

doctrox · May 8, 2026

From the OP:

stevesonthebay said:
This level of hate is demonic. Its beyond normal human emotion and reasoning.

Indeed.

Top of this Forum states:

"This section is for biblically grounded discussion on spiritual warfare, focusing on discernment, prayer, and standing firm in Christ’s authority. Conversations should remain Christ-centered, sober-minded, and rooted in Scripture, avoiding fear, speculation, or sensationalism."

While the need is great, it is not common for Christian sites to establish a bona fide spiritual warfare section. That the enemy would not have us move in that direction is evident.

My take is that this is about sanctification and separation; this is about being holy as he is holy. It's about walking the talk.

He came to set the captives free.

Men in bondage make poor witnesses.

What say ye?

TLHKAJ · May 9, 2026

Refuse to Live in Fear ... "Hantavirus" or Covid 2.0?

doctrox · May 10, 2026

TLHKAJ said:
Refuse to Live in Fear ... "Hantavirus" or Covid 2.0?

Okey dokey. This latest psyop doesn't even require prayer but that we simply shine a bit of light onto it. But first, we gotta realize that fear is the master, the master tool of the god of this world. So refusing that spirit, first and foremost, would be a wise move.

This particular deception just keeps on giving. It ain't hantavirus, folks. Anyone recall all the so-called coronavirus outbreaks on cruise ships? Cruise ships are self-contained mini-cities, a great place to beta test etc. Anything truly problematic can be contained; ultimately, passengers are dispensable, disposable, anonymous. Of course, cruise ships contain some of the most advanced forms of wireless.

To refresh your memory, each of these links covers the ongoing and mysterious cruise ship contagion:

Princess Gets Access to SES O3b mPOWER Satellite-Based Communications System

5G Radiation - Potential Cause of Covid-19 Pandemic

COVID-19 is a Smokescreen for 5G Radiation Sickness

Number of Virus Outbreaks on Cruise Ships Surging says CDC

stevesonthebay · May 12, 2026

doctrox said:
From the OP:

Indeed.

Top of this Forum states:

"This section is for biblically grounded discussion on spiritual warfare, focusing on discernment, prayer, and standing firm in Christ’s authority. Conversations should remain Christ-centered, sober-minded, and rooted in Scripture, avoiding fear, speculation, or sensationalism."

While the need is great, it is not common for Christian sites to establish a bona fide spiritual warfare section. That the enemy would not have us move in that direction is evident.

My take is that this is about sanctification and separation; this is about being holy as he is holy. It's about walking the talk.

He came to set the captives free.

Men in bondage make poor witnesses.

What say ye?

I agree. What is clear is that standing in and with Christ is the remedy. We don't need to do battle in the culture wars of the world but simply stay true to the simple truth of the gospel.

That is what cuts through all the lies and darkness. By being like Christ and even submitting to the world in upholding Christs truth that we will defeat the world (sin and death and all that goes with it).

Even without a word said and simply by exampling Christ. This alone exposes the evil and turns heads towards God.

doctrox · May 17, 2026

Continuing with the theme of the OP, and Catholic agent Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu (aka Mother Teresa) in particular:

...the most successful order in the history of the Catholic church...

It is estimated that worldwide they collected at least $100 million per year - and that has been going on for many many years.

The fortune of this famous charitable organisation is controlled from Rome - from an account at the Vatican bank.

Even patients in unbearable pain were refused strong painkillers, not because the order did not have them, but on principle. "The most beautiful gift for a person is that he can participate in the suffering of Christ," said Mother Teresa. Once she had tried to comfort a screaming sufferer, "You are suffering, that means Jesus is kissing you." The sufferer screamed back, furious, "Then tell your Jesus to stop kissing me."

The British newspaper Guardian described the hospice as an "organised form of neglectful assistance".

It seems that the medical care of the orphans is hardly any better. In 1991 the head of Pro Infante in Germany sent a newsletter to adoptive parents: "Please check the validity of the vaccinations of your children. We assume that in some cases they have been vaccinated with expired vaccines, or with vaccines that had been rendered useless by improper storage conditions."

- source: excerpts from Mother Teresa: where are her millions? (by journalist Walter Wüllenweber, published one year after MT's death)

My take is that this is about sanctification and separation; this is about being holy as he is holy. It's about walking the talk.

"You have not known me, nor have you worshipped me, nor have you venerated me, nor have you even declared me to be your God." The ppl are focused on the memorabilia of faith: crucifix, rosary, mass, recitations, confessions, but no deepening, growing, changing relationship that is born of the confession of sin and the knowledge of Jesus Christ as a personal Saviour. They are not glorying in the fact that the death of Jesus on the cross is what sets them free. They are glorying in the edifice of Catholicism, an edifice that is dying, an edifice that is condemned, an edifice that is going to fall to the ground.

stevesonthebay said:
By being like Christ and even submitting to the world in upholding Christs truth...

Rather, in the world, but not of it. No man can serve two masters. When one supports demonic things, one gets demons. Witness several rage-filled posts in this thread. If you have anger when God is talking to you, you have a serious problem with authority to start with and you need to question if you are even a Christian.

If you bristle when the God of your so-called faith is talking to you and making himself known, then there is a serious problem with your ability to even respond to the authority of a God you claim to worship all the time.

For ppl to be angry when God is talking to them is next-level hubris, unimaginable pride. Are you offended? If so, on what metric do you base your claim?

Repent of your idols, your santa maria's, your front-facing idolatry, your prayers to iconography. You can't pray to Mary, to Peter, to James. There is but one mediator between God and man; his name is Jesus. Jesus' mother is dead. She was a human being, not a deity. You can't put a crown on her and stick her in an alcove and put her hands in a prayer posture and then insist that she's still alive and listening to your prayers. That's absolute and utter madness. Mary is dead. At this point, if you're still insisting on it, it's disrespect. You have to let go of Catholicism or God is simply going to burn your hands off of it, one way or another because the Catholic church is going to get judged. If you are still found to be an entity of the Catholic church, still found to be inside the Catholic church defending it, running around carrying out the instructions and directives of the priests and the nuns and the papacy and all of that, then you are simply going to be flame grilled along with all of them. It will be judged very harshly.

Demonic forces.

Avoid all appearance of evil. Come out from among them...

stevesonthebay · May 18, 2026

doctrox said:
Rather, in the world, but not of it. No man can serve two masters. When one supports demonic things, one gets demons. Witness several rage-filled posts in this thread. If you have anger when God is talking to you, you have a serious problem with authority to start with and you need to question if you are even a Christian.

If you bristle when the God of your so-called faith is talking to you and making himself known, then there is a serious problem with your ability to even respond to the authority of a God you claim to worship all the time.

For ppl to be angry when God is talking to them is next-level hubris, unimaginable pride. Are you offended? If so, on what metric do you base your claim?

I agree. But I was talking more about how sometimes Christians will be under a ruler that they disagree with. Pault said we should pray for rulers that they honor God as God established these institutions so that all may be saved.

So the institution itself is not the problem but the administration of it and sometimes Christians may attack the institution itself and want to get rid of it.

Peter mentions that Christians should submit to rulers even if they may appear unjust at times. Respect the institution itself. Rather than like many others will do in attacking the whole idea of rulers and the institutions that govern people.

But when we submit while upholding Gods laws and example Christ we will expose the injustice without saying a word by shining Christs example as he had done in His time. He did not call for people to rise up and form some political subversion. But by obeying God even when it was unjust He set the example of how we should live in the world.

doctrox said:
Repent of your idols, your santa maria's, your front-facing idolatry, your prayers to iconography. You can't pray to Mary, to Peter, to James. There is but one mediator between God and man; his name is Jesus. Jesus' mother is dead. She was a human being, not a deity. You can't put a crown on her and stick her in an alcove and put her hands in a prayer posture and then insist that she's still alive and listening to your prayers. That's absolute and utter madness.

A little similar to the pagan beliefs in idols of stone and animals that Paul was talking about when he mentions the living God who created these things.

I think this tendency even in the church is a human tendency to make human made ideas about what is holy and represents God. Even today many churches use icons and idols and even human idols and ideologies as a focus of truth and representation.

Like you said money is the greatest idol and it can influence in many ways.

doctrox said:
Mary is dead. At this point, if you're still insisting on it, it's disrespect. You have to let go of Catholicism or God is simply going to burn your hands off of it, one way or another because the Catholic church is going to get judged. If you are still found to be an entity of the Catholic church, still found to be inside the Catholic church defending it, running around carrying out the instructions and directives of the priests and the nuns and the papacy and all of that, then you are simply going to be flame grilled along with all of them. It will be judged very harshly.

Avoid all appearance of evil. Come out from among them...

I think the whole idea of the Vatican city and all the trappings that go along with that are a human made idol in epic proportions. But then I think most if not all denomination in one way or another have idols.

If a church has to have a label or identity that people have to belong to or they are not saved. Then thats a form of idol worship.

Overall if we take all denominations and how they are divided into identity groups. This is itself a product of world ideologies in the church.

The idea of creating divisions and tribes in what is suppose to be a church of one mind and spirit. I think it was Clement who said that where there is division there is no Christ.

lforrest · May 18, 2026

The left's hatred against Christians is very irrational. You don't see contempt against Muslims from the same people, even though they are more legalistic. The only reason must be that the spiritual powers behind Christianity are opposed to the ones behind islam and the left. And those opposed to Christ, knowingly and unknowingly, are influenced by the same evil spirits.

The Learner · May 18, 2026

read thru

doctrox · May 18, 2026

stevesonthebay said:
...sometimes Christians will be under a ruler that they disagree with.

Not a problem, as long as all are in obedience to the One True God. But there's the rub - most are off serving some other master, thinking that they're serving God. Worse, they follow the heresy that all rulers are ordained of God.

stevesonthebay said:
Pault said we should pray for rulers that they honor God as God established these institutions so that all may be saved. So the institution itself is not the problem but the administration of it...

Again, there is no Lawful rulership outside of God's. No man can serve two masters.

stevesonthebay said:
Peter mentions that Christians should submit to rulers even if they may appear unjust at times.

Peter is speaking of Godly authority, of Godly rulers, the Real Deal - not the pretenders most have in ignorance submitted to today.

stevesonthebay said:
He did not call for people to rise up and form some political subversion.

Absolutely true. Rather, he commanded us to come out from among them and be separate. We are not to settle for a bible study in the basement of the brothel, but to set our own city on a hill.

I think most if not all denomination in one way or another have idols...where there is division there is no Christ.

Yep. Denominations go against scripture because they divide Christ. Paul clearly warned us not to go there.

lforrest said:
And those opposed to Christ, knowingly and unknowingly, are influenced by the same evil spirits.

Same evil spirits, different day.

Which brings us back to the OP and the necessity for engaging in effective spiritual warfare. We need to learn how it's done, before it's too late.

TLHKAJ · May 18, 2026

stevesonthebay said:
Peter mentions that Christians should submit to rulers even if they may appear unjust at times.

Will you submit to them unconditionally? What if you're required to snitch on anyone who isn't loyal to them? What if you're required to snitch on Christians who commit "blasphemy" bc they worship Jesus Christ instead of the Antichrist? What if you're required to take a chip/mark in your head or right hand in order to buy and sell? How far does your submission require you to go?

stevesonthebay · May 18, 2026

doctrox said:
Not a problem, as long as all are in obedience to the One True God. But there's the rub - most are off serving some other master, thinking that they're serving God. Worse, they follow the heresy that all rulers are ordained of God.

Again, there is no Lawful rulership outside of God's. No man can serve two masters.

I think when it comes to Gods institutions we needto give both respect. Not that we must worship worldly rulers asmasters but give respect for their institution. Jesus said give unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and to God what is Gods.

Christ did not make His followers rise up to defeat the Roman authorities. He submitted and respected the institution that wrongly found Him guilty. It was His quiet submission that exposed the injustice and caused Christ to seen as an innocent lamb going to the slaughter.

doctrox said:
Peter is speaking of Godly authority, of Godly rulers, the Real Deal - not the pretenders most have in ignorance submitted to today.

Absolutely true. Rather, he commanded us to come out from among them and be separate. We are not to settle for a bible study in the basement of the brothel, but to set our own city on a hill.

I like this verse as it mentions that when properly done the Christian church can be a beacon of light on a hill in a dark world. At present there seems little or no light in the darkness. No church stands out as a pure example of Christ.

Unlike in the early church where the Christian community being new attracted God fearers were attracted to the church due to the Christlike example.

doctrox said:
Yep. Denominations go against scripture because they divide Christ. Paul clearly warned us not to go there.

Same evil spirits, different day.

Which brings us back to the OP and the necessity for engaging in effective spiritual warfare. We need to learn how it's done, before it's too late.

I think it will come. God is reproving many and young people are standing up for God due to the evil and darkness that the world has displayed without God.

I agree its a spiritual battle and satan will go down fighting and fooling people. But despite that Christs truth will be clearly seen in the darkness. Which will bring many to God but also trigger those who disbelieve and want to hold onto the world. They will try their best to exstinguish Christs light but they will never defeat the truth.

stevesonthebay · May 19, 2026

TLHKAJ said:
Will you submit to them unconditionally? What if you're required to snitch on anyone who isn't loyal to them? What if you're required to snitch on Christians who commit "blasphemy" bc they worship Jesus Christ instead of the Antichrist? What if you're required to take a chip/mark in your head or right hand in order to buy and sell? How far does your submission require you to go?

Obviously as with the disciples and early church they were persecuted even to death for standing on the truth of the gospel. The Roman emporers and especially Nero demanded all honor him and their gods. That is how many were executed for not denouncing their belief.

What Peter was talking about was being obedient like Christ to God no matter what. That meant not only standing with Christ until death. But also not rising up against the rulers when they were unjust.

Of course we should speak out about the injustice or evil as part of Christs teachings associated with the gospel. But in an obedient way that sets a Christlike example.

During Christs ministry and especially at His trial He never got into tit for tat politics. Or organised some resistence and subversive protesting. He was obedient and told the truth.

I think this is what exposes the evil. Its like reverse psychology. By remaining humble and being blameless as far as reacting or doing the same as those who are unjust. The silence exposes the injustice because there can be no charge against a Christian who is obedient to God. All that is left is the injustice done and for people to see it for what it is.

TitusTwoWife · May 19, 2026

stevesonthebay said:
I think this is what exposes the evil. Its like reverse psychology. By remaining humble and being blameless as far as reacting or doing the same as those who are unjust. The silence exposes the injustice because there can be no charge against a Christian who is obedient to God. All that is left is the injustice done and for people to see it for what it is.

Sometimes obedience in unjust situations can bring about good outcomes. The Bible talks about servants obeying both good and difficult masters. It also counsels wives to be humble and obedient to husbands who aren't obeying the gospel to influence them.

Sometimes even enduring insults patiently is like a quiet witness.

doctrox · May 19, 2026

stevesonthebay said:
Obviously as with the disciples and early church they were persecuted even to death for standing on the truth of the gospel. The Roman emporers and especially Nero demanded all honor him and their gods.

No, that's not why they were persecuted. Having yet another god in the Roman pantheon was not a problem for emperors/Nero.

stevesonthebay said:
That is how many were executed for not denouncing their belief.

Rather, they were executed for claiming that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way.

stevesonthebay said:
I think when it comes to Gods institutions we needto give both respect. Not that we must worship worldly rulers asmasters but give respect for their institution. Jesus said give unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and to God what is Gods.

This is false for two reasons.

Firstly, there can be only one "institution" worthy of a believer's "respect," and that is God's and not man's. A believer knows that he cannot serve two masters, and his God is a jealous God who will not share his glory with any other.

Secondly, and more troubling because it is so widely misunderstood, is the isolated, misapplied and incomplete verse, "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."

Let's look at the passage for proper context.

And they send unto [Jesus] certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words...they say unto him, Master... Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But [Jesus], knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it. And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. And Jesus answering said unto them, Mark 12:17, "...Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him."

"They marvelled at him" because they could not "catch him in his words."

In short, you've conflated "respect" with "rendering unto Caesar." And this is because you, like the majority, are partaking of the civil idolatry that is State worship because you are unaware that there is any another way.

This double mindedness is completely opposed to what scripture teaches, which is to "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another" (Romans 13:8). If we owe allegiance to Caesar, we not only owe something besides "love," but we are trying to serve two masters, which Christ says is impossible.

To further illustrate, I don't pay any taxes. Why not? Because I have chosen not to align myself with Caesar. Jesus himself was accused of forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar at his trial (Luke 23:2). Notice these were not false witnesses who accused Jesus of not paying taxes, because every time a false witness accused Jesus, the scripture tells us it was a false witness (Mark 14:57-59). Where did Jesus forbid to pay taxes to Caesar?

Jesus was asked if it was lawful to give taxes to Caesar or not. A silver coin, with Caesar's inscription on it, was shown to Christ. In this example, the Lord's answer requires everyone to make the determination as to what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God. But beware, as there is a form of obedience that leads to death: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Romans 6:16).

Further, to whom did this silver coin belong? Since the Scripture says, "The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts" (Haggai 2:8), that means that the silver coin shown to Jesus belonged to God. However, those who live, move, and have their being in the image of Caesar, as the disciples of the Pharisees did, will believe this coin belongs to Caesar instead. We are not to be deluded by the image of Caesar, but built-up in the image of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:7; 15:49, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Colossians 3:10).

stevesonthebay said:
[Christ] submitted and respected the institution that wrongly found Him guilty.

This is opinion without linguistic or scriptural support.

stevesonthebay said:
It was His quiet submission that exposed the injustice and caused Christ to seen as an innocent lamb going to the slaughter.

In any case, "submission" doesn't "expose the injustice." Truth does.

stevesonthebay said:
What Peter was talking about was being obedient like Christ to God no matter what. That meant not only standing with Christ until death. But also not rising up against the rulers when they were unjust.

Again, opinion without linguistic or scriptural support.

stevesonthebay said:
I think this is what exposes the evil. Its like reverse psychology. By remaining humble and being blameless as far as reacting or doing the same as those who are unjust. The silence exposes the injustice because there can be no charge against a Christian who is obedient to God.

And again, it isn't so-called submission that "exposes the evil." It is the light of the Truth.

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?

TitusTwoWife said:
Sometimes even enduring insults patiently is like a quiet witness.

...aka turning the other cheek, which has nothing to do with submission to purported authority, but giving the one in error an opportunity to rather do the right thing (re: Mat. 5:39).

If your reaction to being told that there are faults in Caesar's statutes is to rush to defend them, it is because you cannot envision life without them. This is normal for someone who can only see one kingdom: the kingdom of this world. Yet this world is passing away, as are our own bodies. There is only one thing in life more certain than Caesar's taxes. So we are really here as a test of whether we can “see” and then choose those things that have eternal value. Are our energies devoted to laying up earthly treasures, or treasures in heaven? Are we slaves devoted to building the kingdom of this world, or are we seeking first the kingdom of God? We cannot even know where to begin unless we can see God's kingdom, which is the true meaning of being born again.

God in his sovereignty has provided the perfect means of testing whether we can make the distinction between the two kingdoms. Caesar has usurped God's authority, but his kingdom is built entirely with our consent and by using legal fictions. His authority over us is imaginary. We do not have to render ourselves to him unless we believe that we belong to him. Most people believe with all their heart that they do, for they cannot see the alternative. But if you know that you belong to God, along with your labor, your family, and everything else you have, then you will already have a deep-seated unease with the multitude of demands Caesar makes on you.

If this is the case, then make a list of those things that rightly belong to God but you have in ignorance given to Caesar. Then develop a plan of action for returning them to their rightful owner. This is not easy, but it is necessary. You will need to learn much more about God's Law so that you can discern what true obedience requires of you. If you trust the State to provide for your needs rather than trusting God, it should be clear which master you are serving. As no man can serve two masters, you have a choice to make. Scripture is clear that obedience to God comes at a price, and we must first count the cost. But once you can see the eternal kingdom, you will realize that any price is worth it.

Matthew 13:44 - "The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.”

stevesonthebay · May 22, 2026

doctrox said:
No, that's not why they were persecuted. Having yet another god in the Roman pantheon was not a problem for emperors/Nero.

Rather, they were executed for claiming that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way.

Yes which defied their pagan gods. It was saying that Christ is the only way to God and thus defying their gods as legitimate. A bit like what happens today.

doctrox said:
This is false for two reasons.

Firstly, there can be only one "institution" worthy of a believer's "respect," and that is God's and not man's. A believer knows that he cannot serve two masters, and his God is a jealous God who will not share his glory with any other.

Yes thats right. The institutions are installed by God and not man. Humans abuse it but the truth principles of these instutions like Rule of Law, freedom of belief and political opinion and the Right not to be persecuted ort tortured based on race, religion ect.

We respect them because they align with God. If they did not exist then the world would be in chaos.

doctrox said:
In short, you've conflated "respect" with "rendering unto Caesar."

People can respect a law or ruling without believing in its truth or making the State God. These are practical ways God has institued for the world so it won't decend into complete anarchy and chaos. But world powers abuse these institutions.

doctrox said:
And this is because you, like the majority, are partaking of the civil idolatry that is State worship because you are unaware that there is any another way.

What is the other way. Establish a theocracy ? I don't think that time has come yet. I never said that respecting instutions means worshipping world governments. I said that it means allowing governments to rule in the first place so that there is a degree of law and order and stability.

Are you advocating that all Christians rise up against the State and stop paying taxes or going along with the institutions such as law and order?.

doctrox said:
This double mindedness is completely opposed to what scripture teaches, which is to "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another" (Romans 13:8). If we owe allegiance to Caesar, we not only owe something besides "love," but we are trying to serve two masters, which Christ says is impossible.

Sure Christians can advocate for a more fair and loving institutions. But the principles the institutions uphold is a necessary part of living in the world until Gods Kingdom comes. Uless we want to create a theocracy or Marxism. These actually deny the institutional truths such as the freedom to believe.

Loving and sacrificing for others is something transcedent to the worlds institutions. In fact Christ displayed this by going along with the institutions of Rome. It was this that brought Love. Rather than Christ rising up against Rome.

In that I agree whole heartedly.

doctrox said:
To further illustrate, I don't pay any taxes. Why not? Because I have chosen not to align myself with Caesar.

Are you advocating that all Christians rise up against paying taxes ? A radical idea. We have tried all else. Maybe it will work. In some ways I don't pay taxes as I don't work anymore. But that is different because I did work and have businesses.

But no taxes in this world means no anything. No hospitals, education, law and order ect as they need paying.

doctrox said:
Jesus himself was accused of forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar at his trial (Luke 23:2). Notice these were not false witnesses who accused Jesus of not paying taxes, because every time a false witness accused Jesus, the scripture tells us it was a false witness (Mark 14:57-59). Where did Jesus forbid to pay taxes to Caesar?

Which shows He respected the institution while on earth. He did not worship it but understood its need. Understood not to rise up and defy the false accusations and allow the false rulers to anact their rulings.

Not that He had already made His case that He was innocent. Even Pilate sensed this. So the institutions installed by God are not themselves bad. It is their abuse.

doctrox said:
But beware, as there is a form of obedience that leads to death: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Romans 6:16).

I agree. Overall the idea of taxes and the mandated institutions are of the world. The idea of taxes is a reflection of the monetary system which is an idol. Its also immersed in materialism and a belief that this world is a kingdom.

Its a battle of kingdoms as much as it is for souls.

You make a good destinction of how we can get caught up and lured into the worship of money and things. Especially compared to Christs time. We have so much more temptation with all the stuff we have created to make our lives easier. Instantaneous gratification.

We here every solution except the simple good news of the gospel. It may not contain politics and practical instructions. But it certainly leads the way in loving others. Which in turn leads to better outcomes.

doctrox said:
Further, to whom did this silver coin belong? Since the Scripture says, "The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts" (Haggai 2:8), that means that the silver coin shown to Jesus belonged to God.

Yes just like the institutions. A coin can save a persons life or lose it depending on who you make God. Used in a Godly way it is good.

doctrox said:
We are not to be deluded by the image of Caesar, but built-up in the image of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:7; 15:49, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Colossians 3:10).

Actually I think the Pharisees believed the coins belong to God. As Haggai 2:8 says. They are an example of corrupting their own Gods word. Which is a good example of how worldly rulers abuse Gods institution established for good andf make money God.

Christians are bound to obey God’s Word, which instructs us to submit to civil authorities and to pray for them (see, for example, (1 Tim. 2:1–4). I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Paul wrote to the Christians in the Roman Empire capital, admonishing them to “be subject to the governing authorities”
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. Romans 13:1-2

doctrox said:
This is opinion without linguistic or scriptural support.

I mean He respected the verdict and never rose up or got His followers to rise up against the Romans. He respected Gods will. That means that we should not also rise up and defy authority. Even when its unjust.

That does not mean we cannot point out that injustice or evil. But we have to obey God first which means we cannot enforce our will in defying authority. Or use God to take civil action that defies the authority of institutions. That would be Marxism and not Christlike.

doctrox said:
In any case, "submission" doesn't "expose the injustice." Truth does.

I think many knew Christ was innocent and that was the truth. Some may have protested His innocence. Pilate had doubts. But still no one listened. It was His sacrifical act that cut through all the whitenoise of the worldly powers. Not political uprising.

doctrox said:
Again, opinion without linguistic or scriptural support.

Please refer to the above verses. I am not saying we should not point out evil.

Its actually about obeying God and not acting in the same way the unjust act in commiting the wrong in the first place. Engaging in the political and culture wars makes Christians just another identity in a war they can never win.

doctrox said:
And again, it isn't so-called submission that "exposes the evil." It is the light of the Truth.

I did not mean we should just remain quiet and subserviant and passive that we just let evil go by. In fact Peter says don't let your freedom allow evil to go by. 1 Peter 2: 13-17

Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

doctrox · May 22, 2026

I'm going to take the time to respond with Scripture to your passion play, not just for you but for others who might identify with the tragic situation you would attempt to justify.

Folks instinctively know something is wrong, they smell a rat, but they can't put their finger on it. So what's left to do but to commiserate, e.g. in forums worldwide, about the pickle the majority have voluntarily (even unwittingly) found themselves in?

stevesonthebay said:
Yes thats right. The institutions are installed by God and not man.

Rather, there's only one Lawgiver, and the government is on his shoulders. And this would be GODLY government - not the counterfeit most ignorantly insist we should serve today.

Presently, there are "institutions" of every color and origin.

Many stumble with the reality that there is a counterfeit “authority” seeking our obeisance. Satan said, “I will be like the most High” (Isaiah 14:14).

It is Satan’s “higher power” that is behind the merchants, the rich men of the earth, the present temporal “governing authorities."

In reply to the blind opinion that all kings, princes, and governments are set up and "ordained" by God, we will quote the following passage, which is spoken into the ears of Hosea by God Almighty himself. We pray that those who have eyes to see and ears to hear will no longer engage in such opinions:

They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not. (Hos 8:4)

Also,

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. (Psa 2:1-3)

There's no Godly ordination there.

stevesonthebay said:
Humans abuse it but the truth principles of these instutions like Rule of Law, freedom of belief and political opinion and the Right not to be persecuted ort tortured based on race, religion ect.

Rather, "rule of law" is an occult term! And "freedom of belief" is abominable to the Lord! And "political opinion" is antithetical to Godly behavior. You've never heard Jesus say, 'It is my opinion...' Rather, he declared the truth.

To further illustrate, for those who look to the US Constitution for their authority to do the things that they do, do they realize that the Constitution allows everybody to freely worship any god they choose? This is one of the greatest abominations to God. Old Testament Israel had this same exact law also, and God would punish them whenever they enacted this law. Whenever people would worship other gods in his country, he would command them to tear down their temples and idols. If they refused, God would always punish his people. Even if there was a mixture of people worshipping the True God and people worshipping false gods, this was an abomination also, as his people are not to mix the two. God even commanded his people to go to neighboring countries of the heathen and tear down their temples and idols.

The truth is, the freedom of religion is an abomination to God. Man only has the "right" to worship Almighty God. To be free to worship any other god or partake of any other religion is an abomination to him, and violates the first Two Commandments:

Exodus 20:3-5, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:"

stevesonthebay said:
We respect them because they align with God. If they did not exist then the world would be in chaos.

Rather, respect = consider, esteem, regard, defer (Webster's).

stevesonthebay said:
People can respect a law or ruling without believing in its truth or making the State God.

Not God's people, as no man can serve two masters. Come out from among them; touch not the unclean thing.

stevesonthebay said:
These are practical ways God has institued for the world so it won't decend into complete anarchy and chaos. But world powers abuse these institutions.

...a sentiment that sounds "reasonable" to the flesh, but is utterly wrong before God. Those unbelievers are already under judgement; they are the walking dead. Believers are not to be found among them.

stevesonthebay said:
What is the other way. Establish a theocracy. I don't think that time has come yet. I never said that respecting instutions means worshipping world governments. I said that it means allowing governments to rule in the first place so that there is a degree of law and order and stability.\

Ok, this is an honest question. The short story: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me - not by politics, institutions, religions, compromising with temporal powers...

Are you advocating that all Christians rise up against the State and stop paying taxes or going along with the institutions such as law and order?.

...another honest question! You have just crystalised the wicked predicament most currently find themselves in.

Did Jesus "rise up against the State"? No. We are to overcome evil with good. No mollycoddling but separation from all ungodliness of the world, living in accordance with Godly directives and not the political demands of the unbelieving world.

Because it is so relevant, I will restate here what I posted earlier:

If your reaction to being told that there are faults in Caesar's statutes is to rush to defend them, it is because you cannot envision life without them. This is normal for someone who can only see one kingdom: the kingdom of this world. Yet this world is passing away, as are our own bodies. There is only one thing in life more certain than Caesar's taxes. So we are really here as a test of whether we can “see” and then choose those things that have eternal value. Are our energies devoted to laying up earthly treasures, or treasures in heaven? Are we slaves devoted to building the kingdom of this world, or are we seeking first the kingdom of God? We cannot even know where to begin unless we can see God's kingdom, which is the true meaning of being born again.

God in his sovereignty has provided the perfect means of testing whether we can make the distinction between the two kingdoms. Caesar has usurped God's authority, but his kingdom is built entirely with our consent and by using legal fictions. His authority over us is imaginary. We do not have to render ourselves to him unless we believe that we belong to him. Most people believe with all their heart that they do, for they cannot see the alternative. But if you know that you belong to God, along with your labor, your family, and everything else you have, then you will already have a deep-seated unease with the multitude of demands Caesar makes on you.

If this is the case, then make a list of those things that rightly belong to God but you have in ignorance given to Caesar. Then develop a plan of action for returning them to their rightful owner. This is not easy, but it is necessary. You will need to learn much more about God's Law so that you can discern what true obedience requires of you. If you trust the State to provide for your needs rather than trusting God, it should be clear which master you are serving. As no man can serve two masters, you have a choice to make. Scripture is clear that obedience to God comes at a price, and we must first count the cost. But once you can see the eternal kingdom, you will realize that any price is worth it.

Matthew 13:44 - "The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.”

...continued...

doctrox · May 22, 2026

stevesonthebay said:
Sure Christians can advocate for a more fair and loving institutions.

And to whom would you "advocate" for such? To whom would you submit? A prisoner does not approach the guards to ask for an escape plan! Imagine a believer appearing before an unbeliever for judgement; it happens every day in the world's traffic courts! But God has ALREADY PROVIDED YOU with an Escape Plan.

stevesonthebay said:
But the principles the institutions uphold is a necessary part of living in the world until Gods Kingdom comes. Uless we want to create a theocracy or Marxism. These actually deny the institutional truths of freedom to believe.

Again, a believer (i.e. a follower of Jesus Christ) does not have the "freedom to believe" whatever he wants. WE MUST GET THAT ONE RIGHT.

stevesonthebay said:
Loving and sacrificing for others is something transcedent to the worlds institutions. In fact Christ displayed this by going along with the institutions of Rome. It was this that brought Love. Rather than Christ rising up against Rome.

Oh, it's "transcendent", alright. It's otherworldly, IOW, it's NOT OF THIS WORLD. It shares nothing in common with "the world's institutions."

stevesonthebay said:
Are you advocating that all Christians rise up against paying taxes. A radical idea. We have tried all else. Maybe it will work. In some ways I don't pay taxes as I don't work anymore. But that is different because I did work and have businesses.

Ok, another honest real-world question. We don't "rise up" - we WAKE UP and start serving (not lip serving) the God we would claim to love. 'You say you love me but you don't do what I tell you to do.'

The reason why I don't pay taxes is because I have positioned myself so that I don't owe any. I refuse to partake of Caesar's worldly system. I do not give my free will choice, my liberty in Christ, away to Caesar by entering into contracts with Caesar. It's simple in principle; more difficult when the majority now find themselves up to their eyeballs in worldly bondage because of previous poor choices.

stevesonthebay said:
But no taxes in this world means no anything. No hospitals, education, law and order ect as they need paying.

Not necessarily true. Check out the lifestyle of Jesus or of his disciples (of which group you would claim to be). My community seeks after its own. Yours should, too.

The bad news: If you're relying on the State to provide for you, it's clear which master you are serving.
The good news: It's never too late to begin doing the right thing.

stevesonthebay said:
Which shows He respected the institution while on earth. He did not worship it but understood its need. Understood not to rise up and defy the false accusations and allow the false rulers to anact their rulings.

This is pure conjecture in a vain attempt to justify. Jesus did no such thing.

stevesonthebay said:
Not that He had already made His case that He was innocent. Even Pilate sensed this. So the institutions installed by God are not themselves bad. It is their abuse.

Rather, Jesus simply bore witness to the truth (he IS the truth). He did NOT sanction any "institution."

stevesonthebay said:
Overall the idea of taxes and the mandated institutions are of the world. The idea of taxes is a reflection of the monetary system which is an idol. Its also immersed in materialism and a belief that this world is a kingdom.

Its a battle of kingdoms as much as it is for souls.

Absolutely true.

stevesonthebay said:
You make a good destinction of how we can get catchup and lured into the worship of money and things. Especially compared to Christs time. We have so much more temptation with all the stuff we have created to make our lives easier. Instantaneous gratitude.

You yourself here state that you know of the better way! The harder part is in starting to journey to DO better, to stop giving obeisance to the dead pretender, to make the right ETERNAL choices, to begin to walk the talk and to give honor and praise and glory to the one and only Almighty God.

stevesonthebay said:
We here every solution except the simple good news of the gospel. It may not contain politics and practical instructions. But it certainly leads the way in loving others. Which in turn leads to better outcomes.

The gospel is not about politics. And truth is the prerequisite to love. On cannot have love without the truth.

...continued...

doctrox · May 22, 2026

stevesonthebay said:
Christians are bound to obey God’s Word, which instructs us to submit to civil authorities and to pray for them (see, for example, (1 Tim. 2:1–4). I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

The word "civil" does not appear in the Holy Bible; it is another invention of men.

stevesonthebay said:
Paul wrote to the Christians in the Roman Empire capital, admonishing them to “be subject to the governing authorities”
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. Romans 13:1-2

It is noteworthy that modern copyrighted “versions” of The Holy Bible have changed the phrase “higher powers” to merely “governing authorities,” thereby obscuring the necessary distinction between Godly authority and ungodly authority, between God’s kingdom and Satan’s kingdom.

I've posted much about its generally accepted misread of Romans 13. To make a long story short, we can get this right by allowing scripture to interpret scripture.

Turning to Hebrews 13, we get a second witness as to what constitutes Godly government (as described in Romans 13):

Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation (v. 7). When's the last time you heard Trump speak the word of God to you and/or evidence his faith in Jesus Christ to you?

and

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you (v. 17). When's the last time Trump watched for your soul and gave account to others in the body of Christ for it?

I trust you get the point.

stevesonthebay said:
I mean He respected the verdict and never rose up or got His followers to rise up against the Romans. He respected Gods will. That means that we should not also rise up and defy authority. Even when its unjust.

Jesus never "respected his verdict." Such is romantic fiction born of frustration.

It is to Godly authority that we are to remain obedient. However, if you have rather contracted with Caesar for your sustenance, then you will indeed render unto Caesar. It's that simple.

stevesonthebay said:
That does not mean we cannot point out that injustice or evil.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

stevesonthebay said:
But we have to obey God first which means we cannot enforce our will in defying authority. Or use God to take civil action that defies the authority of institutions. That would be Marxism and not Christlike.

"obey God first"??? Who else is there that a believer would or should obey??? There can be only One. Anything else results in double mindedness, instability.

And what is "not Christlike" is when one is behaving unlike Christ.

stevesonthebay said:
I think many knew Christ was innocent and that was the truth. Some may have protested His innocence. Pilate had doubts. But still no one listened. It was His sacrifical act that cut through all the whitenoise of the worldly powers. Not political uprising.

That Jesus was innocent is not here in dispute.

stevesonthebay said:
Please refer to the above verses. I am not saying we should not point out evil.

Its actually about obeying God and not acting in the same way the unjust act in commiting the wrong in the first place. Engaging in the political and culture wars makes Christians just another identity in a war they can never win.

True.

stevesonthebay said:
I did not mean we should just remain quiet and subserviant and passive that we just let evil go by. In fact Peter says don't let your freedom allow evil to go by. 1 Peter 2: 13-17

Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

"...who are sent by him..."

When scripture speaks of obeying and submitting ourselves to those who have the rule over us, God’s word is not talking about heathen governments, but those "rulers" within Jesus Christ's assembly. Notice carefully this verse says these rulers (i.e. “them that have the rule over you”) "watch for your souls" (Heb. 13:17). Governments of men cannot govern or watch for anyone's souls, for they can only govern outward acts, not the inward being. But true spiritual leaders do watch for our souls.

Those who "have the rule over you" at Hebrews 13:17 is specifically defined a few verses earlier in Hebrews 13:7, "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation

As we can see, scripture itself defines these "rulers" as those who speak the word of God and have faith. Conversely, secular governments avoid, and often forbid, speaking the word of God within their system through outlawing prayer in their schools and replacing it with such unrighteousness as "the theory of evolution," and by taking down the "Ten Commandments" from their courtrooms. These are not the rulers we are to submit to.

In Romans 13, does verse 1 say, ‘let every soul be subject unto all governments’? Or does it say, "let every soul (including governing authorities such as kings, judges, police, etc.) be subject unto the higher powers"? Who do souls belong to? God says:

Ezekiel 18:4, "Behold, all souls are mine."

And the second part of verse 1 tells us who “the higher powers” is: "...For there is no power but of God".

The souls of the governmental powers belong to God, and they are not the higher powers, the higher powers are held by Christ himself (Matthew 28:18). Is our Lord not the higher power, then, if all power has been committed unto him (John 17:2)? Christ is the governor among the nations (Psalms 22:28). All power over earthly kings has been given unto him (Romans 14:9). All judgment has been given unto him (John 5:22, 27). Notice the separation of power in Romans 13:1. All power comes from, and belongs to, God (Psalm 62:11) and not the one exercising it. And remember that most men, especially those constituting the "governing authorities," usually deny that power given to Jesus (2 Timothy 3:2, 5):

“For men shall be...Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

stevesonthebay · May 23, 2026

doctrox said:
I'm going to take the time to respond with Scripture to your passion play, not just for you but for others who might identify with the tragic situation you would attempt to justify.

Folks instinctively know something is wrong, they smell a rat, but they can't put their finger on it. So what's left to do but to commiserate, e.g. in forums worldwide, about the pickle the majority have voluntarily (even unwittingly) found themselves in?

Rather, there's only one Lawgiver, and the government is on his shoulders. And this would be GODLY government - not the counterfeit most ignorantly insist we should serve today.

Presently, there are "institutions" of every color and origin.

Many stumble with the reality that there is a counterfeit “authority” seeking our obeisance. Satan said, “I will be like the most High” (Isaiah 14:14).

It is Satan’s “higher power” that is behind the merchants, the rich men of the earth, the present temporal “governing authorities."

In reply to the blind opinion that all kings, princes, and governments are set up and "ordained" by God, we will quote the following passage, which is spoken into the ears of Hosea by God Almighty himself. We pray that those who have eyes to see and ears to hear will no longer engage in such opinions:

They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not. (Hos 8:4)

Once again I am not talking about the kings or rulers themselves. They may or may not be Godly. Rather it is the institutions of governance that God has installed as Peter and Paul mention. The authority of the institution itself rather than the individual king or ruler.

Otherwise are you advocating that Christians rise up and overthrow the government with force ?

doctrox said:
Also,

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. (Psa 2:1-3)

There's no Godly ordination there.

Once again we are not talking about the individuals. The individuals represent the institutions. If there is no such thing as the institutions of God then there are no way for rulers and kings to have authority in the first place.

What is it that the kings and rulers are doing ? They are applying the institutions like law and order or human rights. Otherwise there is no safeguard for law and order and human rights and people will be unjustly abused.

Thats why Paul says pray for all authorities, kings and rulers that they be Godly and apply the institutions justly that all people be saved.

doctrox said:
Rather, "rule of law" is an occult term!

How can Rule of Law be evil when it actually upholds the truth and justice ?

What replacement would be used if there was no Rule of Law. In fact it was only recently that western nations like the US got rid of the 10 commandments as the basis for Rule of Law.

But even without this it is still a principle that aligns with Christian values. Such as justice and the right be innocent until proven guilty. Imagine a society without that like in China or some regime that put you in jail without trial or evidence.

doctrox said:
And "freedom of belief" is abominable to the Lord!

Why ? Does not God give us free will to choose to believe and follow Him or not ? That can only be done with the freedom to choose.

doctrox said:
And "political opinion" is antithetical to Godly behavior. You've never heard Jesus say, 'It is my opinion...' Rather, he declared the truth.

I mean political views. How we live and what we choose to advocate and actively support crosses into the political whether we like it or not. Do you support the right to healthcare for example. That can only happen within secular society and good policies. Like law and order. Do you support law and order ?.

But it doesn't matter because its not about politics. Rather the principle of the freedom to choose to align with what you believe is right. For many Christians that may be supporting good basic healthcare and housing for the poor and volnurable.

The point is if there is no freedom to choose for this to happen in the first place then people are slaves. They are subject to bad rulers who deny these things. I don't think Christians want to see people be abused like that.

doctrox said:
To further illustrate, for those who look to the US Constitution for their authority to do the things that they do, do they realize that the Constitution allows everybody to freely worship any god they choose? This is one of the greatest abominations to God.

Did not God allow Sodom and Garmorrah the choice ? He waited years for them to repent. Never once forced them. The same with many examples. The same with Christ. He even allowed Judas to choose and do what He did leading to His own crucifixtion.

doctrox said:
Old Testament Israel had this same exact law also, and God would punish them whenever they enacted this law. Whenever people would worship other gods in his country, he would command them to tear down their temples and idols. If they refused, God would always punish his people. Even if there was a mixture of people worshipping the True God and people worshipping false gods, this was an abomination also, as his people are not to mix the two. God even commanded his people to go to neighboring countries of the heathen and tear down their temples and idols.

I think your mixing up Gods law and that He declares Himself to be the one and only True God as a truth statement that all should only worship God. To the human ability God has given us to still choose not to worship God.

That is what sin is and many will be judged sinners because they chose not to worship God.

There are still consequences for rejecting God as you mention with the Isrealites and even throughout history. But this is the result of not choosing to obey God and not God using consequences of rejecting Him.

Otherwise the pharoah and Egytians should have been saved. But they still rejected God after so many warnings. Because they were free to do so and God did not force the, In fact God hardened the pharoahs heart that he could never worship God.

doctrox said:
The truth is, the freedom of religion is an abomination to God. Man only has the "right" to worship Almighty God. To be free to worship any other god or partake of any other religion is an abomination to him, and violates the first Two Commandments:

Actually its the choice to worship other gods that is the problem. Part of being human is having free will. Otherwise there would be no sin and rejecting God would not be wrong.

doctrox said:
Exodus 20:3-5, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:"

Yes this is the law. But humans have been created with free will to choose not follow the law and God. Just ask Adam and Eve who caused all this. The Isrealites chose not to follow God. S & G chose not to follow God. The pharoah chose the same.

Demonic forces.

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