Resurrection

Something new has happened, we have in effect fitted Jesus and even his resurrection into the story that our Western churches have had all along of the present world as the preparation for the various options of life after death in the traditional scheme, heaven or hell. But in the New Testament, we have a very different picture, we don’t find a life after death in heaven, we find life after life after death, a newly embodied life, in a newly reconstituted creation. First you die, then there is whatever you gonna call it, life after death and then there is creation and with it bodily resurrection, life after life after death. We see in the New Testament Jesus’ resurrection not as the happy ending after the crucifixion, but as the launching of nothing less than New Creation itself.

Resurrection is literally “an up standing,” the world of the first century, resurrection never referred to what we think of as life after death or to put it the other way around, when people talked as they often did about what will happen to them when they died, they never used the word resurrection. Resurrection was not something that happened to you immediately after you died, what God did for Jesus, Jesus’ resurrection, he’ll do for all his people at the end, raising them to new bodily life to share in the new bodily life of his new world. But as the gospel moved away from its Jewish roots and into the Greek world, resurrection was harder and harder to cling on to. It’s striking, that the New Testament isn’t terribly interested in what happens to people immediately after they die.

Jesus says to the man of the cross next to him, that he will be with him in paradise, but that’s today Jesus says, paradise is not the ultimate destination, it is the temporary blissful dwelling while you await the ultimate destination. For Jesus, that destination came three days later, the man that was next to Jesus on the cross, like all others is still waiting. Paul says that King Jesus rises as the first fruits, it’s the sign that there’s a great harvest is yet to come and at his coming, those who belong to him will rise as he has been raised. Paul makes no mention of any others who already share the risen life, all others come later at his coming. Jesus tells the disciples that he’s going to prepare a place for them and he will return to take them to himself, he will take his people to be with him for the moment and then, when the time comes, he will give them new bodily life in his New World.

Paul said his desire is to depart and be with King Jesus, which is far better, but how does that work? It does’t say. The early Christian view is that we humans are whole creatures body included and after death we are in that sense naked awaiting the further clothing of the resurrection, not heading off as a disembodied soul to a temporal heaven. In that interim period, the Holy Spirit who has indwelt Christians, will continue to hold their real self in the close presence of Jesus until the Spirit then gives new life to their physical bodies. God is the good creator and God is committed to putting things right, we belong to the one who made it all and along with creation goes justice. God cares passionately about putting right that which is wrong in the world, justice means making things right at last, getting the original creational project back on track.

Put creation and justice side-by-side within the present world of sorrow and suffering and sin, what do we have, not the platonic soul picture, where the present world can go to hell or heaven, that simply ignores the goodness of the original creation and of the creator’s intention and the divine longing to put it all right at last. This is the biblical hope, that the God who made the world will put it right. A creation out of the old, that’s what Paul says, the creation itself will be set free from its bondage, when God’s rescues and redemption and reestablishment of the present creation, the biblical message is that the project has begun, when through Jesus, God overthrew the dark powers that have spoiled and corrupted his beautiful world and particularly the beautiful lives of precious image bearing human beings, who were made to be the crown of creation, the agents through whom God would bring his beauty and justice into the world.

The project happened through Jesus’ Kingdom work, which reached its climax on the cross and because the power of death was defeated on the cross, that opened the way for creation to be set free from its slavery to decay, from its corruption and death, starting with Jesus’ own physical body resurrection is the beginning, that’s why the bodily resurrection of Jesus matters so much. If God is the good creator and if at the last he will put everything right, resurrection is going to be the result. This is the launching of the New Creation, in which the divine intention for the whole creation from the beginning is at last fulfilled. Jesus is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead Paul says, so that in everything he might be preeminent, he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, in him and through him and for him all things were created.

Unless we see the gospel as a great narrative which finds its way through the dark night of the long years of Israel’s desolation and then bursts out with new life with Jesus’ resurrection. If having been launched, the New Creation is then put to work in the world, that is the primary task of the Holy Spirit in the great commission, there’s new life and if the Holy Spirit is given new life so that we can not only have life ourselves, but be life bringers into the world. Creation and justice, a good world spoiled by hostile and destructive forces, but now to be remade, a world to be brought through death and out the other side into a new kind of life, which death can no longer touch and though the Holy Spirit can and does work in a thousand different ways of which we only hear the rustle of the passing wind, one of the primary ways the Spirit works is of course through the humble, prayerful servants of Jesus, whose hearts have been renewed, whose minds have been enlightened by the powerful gospel, so that they not only believe in Jesus’ resurrection and hence in his victory over the dark powers on the cross, but that they become resurrection people, both signs and agents of the new life which will one day flood the whole creation and the key areas for their work will be creation and justice, beauty and justice imitating and drawing from God, the lavish Creator, anticipating God’s final putting right of all things.

ScottA said:

Why should anyone read any further? In the first paragraph and again in the second paragraph, you are in need of biblical "correction."

"Immediately after they die" the New Testament says--Jesus says--"today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Very clearly!

But it is your "find life after life after death" premise that is the real issue. You are confusing Jesus' rising from the dead with His ascension--neither of which is the biblical "resurrection" per se.

Jesus rising from the dead was no "ascension", it was strictly a demonstration of His victory over death, in the spirit of "new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them.”

Neither was Jesus' "ascension" the "resurrection", but also a mere demonstration. People saw it. Have you not read that "all who are born of the spirit" are unseen like "the wind?" A demonstration of what? Of what is actually unseen--but since it was seen, it is not the actual "resurrection" wherein one becomes One with God whom "is spirit" and thus unseen of this world.

What then do the scriptures actually say of the resurrection? Starting with "the first resurrection":

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Revelation20:4-5).​

Who are "they?" They are "the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses" (Revelation 19:14)--"in heaven" and therefore unseen of this world. And where would that be? Jesus again, "the kingdom of heaven is within you." Which speaks of any and all "born of the Spirit." And "where" does that occur according to the New Testament? It occurs "within" those "born again" during the Church age, beginning at Pentecost--uniquely during the Church age--not after death, but as Paul described, saying "we who are alive and remain." Which is to say, we who are alive in the Spirit, but remain in the world until the passing of our flesh.

All of which is not the common and popular interpretation--but rather the truth.

Meaning, "but" the first resurrection is not of "the dead"--"but"--that is what it says. "But" of those "alive" and yet remaining in this world. As for the "thousand years", there are many such terms in the scriptures that are in need of spiritual interpretation only given in worldly terms to confound the wicked, and are only spiritually discerned.

As for when and where Jesus was "born again" as "firstfruits" of all who are born of the spirit of God (and unseen to the world)--He was born of the flesh as a babe in Bethlehem, but also of the Spirit, for He was fathered by the Holy Spirit which came upon Mary. Therefore, the scriptures refer to Him as having "his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land" (Revelation 10:2) another term or metaphor not meaning what it may seem, but meaning: walking through this world both "in the spirit" and in the flesh. Both God and man, each having a "different" body--just as "There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another"...etc. "But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be" (1 Corinthians 15:40 and 15:35-36).

If you do not fully understand these things, please stop making claims as if what you merely "believe" is the gospel truth.

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Ephesians 2:21, the image used by Paul is vivid and precise, you are stones in a continuous spiritual construction, each person who receives Christ is inserted into this structure, not as an ornament, but as an essential part of the support, this calls you to the responsibility of understanding your place in the body and acting faithfully. The building up of the body of Christ is not a task exclusive to religious leaders or theology specialists, each member has a function, a calling, a specific space, there are gifts and talents distributed by the Holy Spirit for the purpose of the body growing, maturing and revealing to the world, the living presence of God.

Ignoring this calling leaves the structure weakened, for each absence weighs upon the collective, this construction also teaches you about mutual dependence, a stone alone does not support a wall, there is stability only when you are together connected by something greater than yourself. Individualistic pride finds no space in this dynamic, the Kingdom is collective, relational and functional, the more aligned you are with the purpose of Christ, the more firm and relevant you will be in your generation.

ScottA said:

True, but some to one task and purpose, and some to other types of support. Having to correct you is either correct on my part or false, and likewise on your part. In this way the eye is not the leg, or the nose, etc. (which you did not convey fully in your reply).

The problem in your Original Post that I am addressing specifically, is that you were stating doctrine not consistent with Christ's teachings. But also because, you have done so in an area of which I specifically have a part--which is the finish of what was begun with Paul (whom you quoted), not finished by Paul, but yet to be finished according to Daniel, Jesus, Paul, and John only at the time of the end. In other words, I am not correcting you of my own authority or supposing a contest of who is correct, but acting in accord with the authority of those who gave witness before, and by Him who sent me.

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Matthew 7:21, Jesus does not say we didn’t do enough or our works were too small, he said I never knew you. The issue is relationship, these people used his name, but never gave him their hearts, they served publicly, while keeping control privately. Hell is not only filled with people who openly rejected Jesus, it’s filled with people who knew about him, spoke his name and even worked in religious spaces, yet never allowed him to truly know them, because they never surrendered their will or gave him authority over their hidden darkness. John 5:40, that unwillingness, that stubborn resistance is the real danger, held back by pride, admitting need feels humiliating, but when conviction comes they harden their hearts and others are trapped by shame, believing they are too dirty, too far gone and instead of running to the one who cleanses, they pull away from him.

ScottA said:

True, but some to one task and purpose, and some to other types of support. Having to correct you is either correct on my part or false, and likewise on your part. In this way the eye is not the leg, or the nose, etc. (which you did not convey fully in your reply).

The problem in your Original Post that I am addressing specifically, is that you were stating doctrine not consistent with Christ's teachings. But also because, you have done so in an area of which I specifically have a part--which is the finish of what was begun with Paul (whom you quoted), not finished by Paul, but yet to be finished according to Daniel, Jesus, Paul, and John only at the time of the end. In other words, I am not correcting you of my own authority or supposing a contest of who is correct, but acting in accord with the authority of those who gave witness before, and by Him who sent me.

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The order observed in the liturgy of now, finds its ultimate grounding in the physical and metaphysical reality of the resurrection, the event that anchors all Christian hope in the solidity of transformed matter. 1 Corinthians chapter 15 indicates that Christian hope does not reside in a platonic escape from matter, but in its radical and definitive transformation. Paul confronts the heresy of a purely intellectual or ethereal spirituality, asserting that if Christ did not redeem biology from corruption, faith is an empty semantic construct and man remains trapped in the nihilism of death. Resurrection is not a myth of the immortality of the soul, but an ontological revolution that claims every atom of creation.

ScottA said:

Completely wrong.

Is God who "is spirit" "platonic", "empty", "in the nihilism of death?" Is God who "is perfect" "a myth of immortality", or made up of "every atom of creation?" Are you so foolish?

Perhaps, but you have completely misunderstood Paul's explanation--even omitting "there is a natural body and a spiritual body", and that "you do not sow that body that shall be." And have you not also read, that all the elements of creation--including the flesh of men--that "all these things will be dissolved?"

Your position is against God.

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The concept of spiritual body presented by Paul does not suggest a denial of the physical, but its saturation by the life of the eternal, where the corruptible is swallowed by incorruptibility, establishing that human destiny is not the abandonment of earth, but the inauguration of a new physics of existence. This perspective alters the understanding of victory over death, moving it from the realm of poetic consolation to the ground of factual certainty that underpins all ethics of the now. For every act performed in the present echoes in the solidity of materialized eternity, the correlation between the seed that dies to germinate and the body that decomposes to arise establishes a discontinuous continuity that challenges immediate sensory perception.

ScottA said:

True enough, but that doesn't really track with or address why I first posted a reply to your Original Post.

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Matthew 4:17, from that time Jesus is announcing, to turn around. In Hebrew, the word “repent” is literally “to turn around,” there’s something happening that requires you to go in a different direction, the Kingdom of Heaven has come near. The Kingdom of Heaven has touched down right here, right now, you guys need to turn around and pay attention. This is unique to Matthew, Jesus’ message about the Kingdom of Heaven here, is clearly not that it’s somewhere that you go, it’s somewhere that has arrived here. The substance of what it means to turn around and respond to the arrival of the Kingdom of Heaven.

ScottA said:

Is that what you believe--that God who is "perfectly" "spirit", who "taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men" actually came to create not a hybrid, but a lowbrid species of men--higher than mortal men, but lower than God--God who is "higher", "perfect", and "spirit?"

"The now?" - Oh, I see--so does God. You are revealed.

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The image of a necessary metamorphosis, where the image of the earthly man must give way to the image of the heavenly man, not by a merit of natural evolution, but by a creative act of God that encompasses the tyranny of time. Paul argues that resurrection is the firstborn of a new species, which would make his message the target of censure in circles that seek only psychological comfort or a civilizational morality. For Paul, without the concreteness of the transformed flesh, the gospel loses its voltage and becomes just another philosophy of resignation.

ScottA said:

You misunderstand greatly.

Jesus came preaching to "turn around" because the world and men were on a course with death--"passing away." He did not come to save this world and men of flesh by transforming everything and everyone into some higher glorified flesh--but to rescue us from it. We were cast out--He came to recover us from death and return us, as He said, to "receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." The "where" of which is with not in this world, but with "the Father", as He also said and did, saying, "I go to the Father."

Thus, Jesus' saying that "the kingdom of God has come upon you", was "God with us" in our time of "turning around" and returning to God--No bringing some utopian new reality to this fallen world--but "to save us" before it is "dissolved." He walked in this world, as it is written, "he set his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land" so to speak. Meaning one foot in the spirit, and one foot in this world.

Which is to say--you are not "turning around"--but for lack of understanding, are putting both feet into the darkness of this fallen world.

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Matthew is presenting Jesus as the new Moses, he’s the new Moses doing the thing Moses hoped would happen. Moses hoped for something and that’s the message of the Torah and Jesus is saying, I’m doing the thing that Moses hoped for.

ScottA said:

Yours is the philosophy.

Those born of the spirit of God are not a "new species", but of God.

And your idea of "transformed flesh" or the children of God being without "voltage" is just naive, a mere fleshly alternative to your own "psychological comfort or a civilizational morality." Very poetic, but utterly wrong. What you are trying to force into your own fleshly desire, is simply the unseen workings of God (who is spirit and without physical form) made manifest--manifest with "shadow of turning" form, which you are apparently stuck on. What you are missing (naive of) is the actual reality of what God has done, and thus have adopted your own rationale.

What God has actually done however, is "divided" ("the light from the darkness") the cause of form, by dividing His eternity into the incrementalism of Time--time and form which "is passing away" daily until the end of it. And now that this has been revealed to you, your own imaginations are no longer innocent if this truth is rejected. That's how this works.

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The semantic weight here resides in the assertion that evil and death do not have the final word over matter. A thesis that restores the body, its supreme dignity and human labor, its eternal relevance, for nothing done under the aegis of the Creator is handed over to the forgetfulness of dust. Underlying this structure of hope, lies the denial of dualism, that separates the spiritual sacred from the material profane, a division that Paul annihilates by placing the event of resurrection as the central axis of history.

ScottA said:

More grave error.

Moses came to do exactly what God had him do. Which was lead a visual of people entering into the promised "land"--which was not actually land the "promise." Then He had Moses stay behind and die on the mountain--a metaphor for staying in this world, but dying "in the highest."

But men of flesh and of this world--you included--preferred the flesh and this world....which as history will attest, is no Paradise, but the "promise" fulfilled of, "But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant."

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Moses on Mount Sinai, show me your face and God said you can’t, because here, outside of Eden, it’s dangerous, you’ll die, but Moses saw the back of God, a great metaphor for the indescribable.