Yes, I know this is common sense to 99% of Christians out there, but my Messianic rabbi friend asked me to "provide scriptures" for this issue which was probably solved around AD 50 or so. This came from a wandering conversation starting with Aramaic Primacy and George Lamsa, moving to the heretical implications of Messianic Jew Andrew Gabriel Roth teaching things concerning the Trinity and Christology that would be considered heretical by Nicene Christianity to him trying to put me and a friend on the hot seat for not being Torah observant. I employed Grok to answer a question that has been an open and shut case for nearly two millennia.
"Excellent! I’m genuinely glad the Church Fathers’ Scripture-based case for the Trinity (real, eternal, distinct Persons in one essence) resonates with you, Roth, Horvath, and the wider Messianic Torah community. That removes a major point of friction.
Now to your core difficulty: the claim that the “Biblical Covenant instruction of Torah” has been canceled or is now “Jewish only.” Here is the actual Scriptural evidence (not later tradition or “Hellenism”) that classical Christianity draws from to say the Mosaic Covenant (as a whole system) has been fulfilled and is no longer binding in the same way, while the moral heart of Torah remains perpetual for all believers—Jew and Gentile alike.
1. The New Covenant Makes the Old One “Obsolete”
Hebrews 8:6–13 (quoting Jeremiah 31:31–34) is the clearest text:
“But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better… For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second… In speaking of a ‘new covenant,’ he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”
This is the author of Hebrews (writing to Jewish believers) saying the Mosaic Covenant itself (the one given at Sinai with all its instructions, sacrifices, priesthood, calendar, etc.) is now obsolete because the New Covenant has arrived in Yeshua. Jeremiah 31 is the same passage Roth and Hebrew Roots love — but the NT writer applies it as fulfillment that changes the administration.
2. Yeshua Fulfills, Does Not Abolish — But Changes Application
Matthew 5:17–18:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”
Traditional reading: “Fulfill” (Greek plēroō) here means to bring to completion / embody perfectly. Yeshua accomplishes what the Torah pointed toward (sacrifices, priesthood, etc.). Once “all is accomplished” (His death, resurrection, ascension), the shadow gives way to the reality (see also Colossians 2:16–17 below).
3. Gentiles Are Explicitly Not Placed Under Full Torah
Acts 15:1–29 (Jerusalem Council) — this is the decisive passage for the “not Jewish only” question:
Judaizers demand Gentile believers be circumcised and keep the whole Law of Moses to be saved.
Apostles and elders (including James and Peter) rule no: only four basic requirements (abstain from idols, sexual immorality, strangled meat, blood).
Reason: “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements” (v. 28).
If the full Torah were still mandatory for all believers, the Spirit-led council would have said so. Instead they treat it as a starting point for table fellowship, not the full Sinai package.
4. Paul’s Clear Statements on Freedom from the Law’s Curse and Guardianship
Romans 6:14: “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.”
Romans 7:4–6: “You also have died to the law through the body of Christ… so that you may belong to another… Now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”
Galatians 3:23–25: “Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came… But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.”
Galatians 5:1–4: “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.”
Paul (a Torah-observant Jew himself) is not anti-Torah; he is against returning to it as a system of justification or identity marker that separates Jew and Gentile.
5. The “Dividing Wall” and Shadows Fulfilled
Ephesians 2:14–15:
“For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two…”
Colossians 2:14–17:
“Canceling the record of debt… nailing it to the cross… Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.”
Hebrew Roots / Roth’s Counter-Reading (for fairness)
You and Roth read these same passages differently:
“Fulfill” = properly interpret / uphold in practice (so Torah remains binding).
Acts 15 = minimum requirements for new Gentile believers; they will learn the rest of Moses every Sabbath (v. 21).
Jeremiah 31:33 (“I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts”) proves the same Torah continues under the New Covenant.
One Law for native and stranger (Ex 12:49; Num 15:15–16) applies to grafted-in Gentiles (Rom 11).
Both sides are trying to be faithful to Scripture. The difference is in covenant theology: Does the New Covenant renew and internalize the exact same Mosaic Torah, or does it fulfill and transform it so that the ceremonial and civil aspects are no longer binding while the moral law (love God, love neighbor — the heart of Torah) is written on all believers’ hearts by the Spirit?
This is why the early Church (and most historic Christianity) sees the Torah as God’s good instruction that is fulfilled in Christ, not canceled in hatred — and why they never taught it was “Jewish only” in the moral sense. The moral commands remain for everyone; the shadow-system has served its purpose.
If you (or Roth) have specific verses you want me to address or a different way you read these passages, I’m happy to go verse-by-verse. This is all straight from the text. Shalom! "
"Excellent! I’m genuinely glad the Church Fathers’ Scripture-based case for the Trinity (real, eternal, distinct Persons in one essence) resonates with you, Roth, Horvath, and the wider Messianic Torah community. That removes a major point of friction.
Now to your core difficulty: the claim that the “Biblical Covenant instruction of Torah” has been canceled or is now “Jewish only.” Here is the actual Scriptural evidence (not later tradition or “Hellenism”) that classical Christianity draws from to say the Mosaic Covenant (as a whole system) has been fulfilled and is no longer binding in the same way, while the moral heart of Torah remains perpetual for all believers—Jew and Gentile alike.
1. The New Covenant Makes the Old One “Obsolete”
Hebrews 8:6–13 (quoting Jeremiah 31:31–34) is the clearest text:
“But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better… For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second… In speaking of a ‘new covenant,’ he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”
This is the author of Hebrews (writing to Jewish believers) saying the Mosaic Covenant itself (the one given at Sinai with all its instructions, sacrifices, priesthood, calendar, etc.) is now obsolete because the New Covenant has arrived in Yeshua. Jeremiah 31 is the same passage Roth and Hebrew Roots love — but the NT writer applies it as fulfillment that changes the administration.
2. Yeshua Fulfills, Does Not Abolish — But Changes Application
Matthew 5:17–18:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”
Traditional reading: “Fulfill” (Greek plēroō) here means to bring to completion / embody perfectly. Yeshua accomplishes what the Torah pointed toward (sacrifices, priesthood, etc.). Once “all is accomplished” (His death, resurrection, ascension), the shadow gives way to the reality (see also Colossians 2:16–17 below).
3. Gentiles Are Explicitly Not Placed Under Full Torah
Acts 15:1–29 (Jerusalem Council) — this is the decisive passage for the “not Jewish only” question:
Judaizers demand Gentile believers be circumcised and keep the whole Law of Moses to be saved.
Apostles and elders (including James and Peter) rule no: only four basic requirements (abstain from idols, sexual immorality, strangled meat, blood).
Reason: “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements” (v. 28).
If the full Torah were still mandatory for all believers, the Spirit-led council would have said so. Instead they treat it as a starting point for table fellowship, not the full Sinai package.
4. Paul’s Clear Statements on Freedom from the Law’s Curse and Guardianship
Romans 6:14: “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.”
Romans 7:4–6: “You also have died to the law through the body of Christ… so that you may belong to another… Now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”
Galatians 3:23–25: “Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came… But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.”
Galatians 5:1–4: “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.”
Paul (a Torah-observant Jew himself) is not anti-Torah; he is against returning to it as a system of justification or identity marker that separates Jew and Gentile.
5. The “Dividing Wall” and Shadows Fulfilled
Ephesians 2:14–15:
“For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two…”
Colossians 2:14–17:
“Canceling the record of debt… nailing it to the cross… Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.”
Hebrew Roots / Roth’s Counter-Reading (for fairness)
You and Roth read these same passages differently:
“Fulfill” = properly interpret / uphold in practice (so Torah remains binding).
Acts 15 = minimum requirements for new Gentile believers; they will learn the rest of Moses every Sabbath (v. 21).
Jeremiah 31:33 (“I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts”) proves the same Torah continues under the New Covenant.
One Law for native and stranger (Ex 12:49; Num 15:15–16) applies to grafted-in Gentiles (Rom 11).
Both sides are trying to be faithful to Scripture. The difference is in covenant theology: Does the New Covenant renew and internalize the exact same Mosaic Torah, or does it fulfill and transform it so that the ceremonial and civil aspects are no longer binding while the moral law (love God, love neighbor — the heart of Torah) is written on all believers’ hearts by the Spirit?
This is why the early Church (and most historic Christianity) sees the Torah as God’s good instruction that is fulfilled in Christ, not canceled in hatred — and why they never taught it was “Jewish only” in the moral sense. The moral commands remain for everyone; the shadow-system has served its purpose.
If you (or Roth) have specific verses you want me to address or a different way you read these passages, I’m happy to go verse-by-verse. This is all straight from the text. Shalom! "
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