The Kingdoms of the Dragon

I started off today intending to write about one topic but in the midst of my studies God led me in a completely different direction. Has that ever happened to you?

No matter what viewpoint a student of prophecy starts with, we mostly all have one thing we believe in common and that is the identity of the beasts from Dan. 7. We should know based on Dan. 7: 17 that the lion-like beast was Medo-Persia, the bear-like beast was the Greece and the leopard-like beast was Rome and the fourth terrible beast with the 10 horns equates w/ the 5th still future kingdom of Dan. 2, the ten toes.

Historicists and many futurists believe they are made up of some of the remnants of the western part of the Roman Empire. Preterists have to believe the 4th kingdom is wrong, otherwise their whole, lack of eschatology crumbles to dust. I believe they’re looking in the wrong direction. The picture of the dragon from Rev. 13 tells us where to look for these nations to come from. Rev. 13:2 – “And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”

It seems plain to me that we should look in the areas that these four kingdoms had in common which means we should concentrate on Rome’s eastern empire (aka the Byzantine Empire) and not the western. I’m sure my list is incomplete because my computer wasn’t forthcoming with a simple answer to my queries but I found at least eight modern countries that they all, at various times, controlled. They are Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq and Turkey. There is one more that Greece, Medo-Persia and Rome shared and that is Libya. The Medo-Persians and Greeks had Afghanistan and Pakistan in common and Rome and Greece had Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Armenia and Romania in common. Individually they each held territories the others didn’t so I will list them as possibilities as well. They consist of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Georgia and Albania.

I believe at least the eight they all had in common may be part of the ten kingdoms controlled by the dragon and the other two is a toss-up amongst the remaining countries. Israel may be an exception but only time will tell.

Have you ever had a dream that sticks with you? You know it’s important and that God gave it to you but you don’t necessarily understand it fully. Well, that’s happened to me a couple of times lately. Let me share my last one. I was shown a map and on the map were seven mountains arranged in a semi-circle. (Rev. 17:9) The middle one was the largest and was called either Mt Olympus or Mt. Olympia.

I tried to find a similar arrangement on the computer but to no avail. In the election year 2016 we had two slogans, Hillary’s, “I’m with her” and Trump’s, “I’m with you”. There is a passage in Dan. 11:36-39 that I believe is talking about the a/c. “And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.”

In my ponderings, I have always thought that this “strange god” could be technology. However, because of my dream I’m leaning a different way. Continuing on with the dream, I was in a park with my family just watching the kids run and play and other families have a good time together. I was sitting on the ground next to a swing set and suddenly a little girl who was several feet away stood up and pointed at me and said, “I stand for the world” then many others, adults and children alike either stood up or turned to face me and then one at a time they all said the same thing, “I stand for the world” and the dream ended.

As I was considering what the dream might mean the word “globalism” came to mind. “Peace and safety with unity” is a concept that none of the a/c’s fathers had known. It was always power, conflict, control and conquest. The concept of globalism has only arisen in the age of the computer and internet and while we’ve heard the term bandied about a bit, it hasn’t become a “movement” but that might change in the near future and it might very well be that the a/c will come to fame within this cause. It seems to go with the flow of scripture but let me know what you think.

ewq1938 said:

The 4th beast cannot be Rome because that beast is killed and destroyed at a coming of God coinciding with an eternal kingdom and the other beasts live on. None of the kingdoms you listed still are in power/exist, and Rome fell a long time ago and nothing in the text speaks of the 4th beast continuing in a new form for hundred of years. It just doesn't match.

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My post never implied anything about Rome except the fact that they held dominion over the same geographic area the a/c will. You must have misunderstood something. The first three kingdoms (by description) of Dan. 7 carry forward to the description of the beast in Rev. 13:2 The 10 nation confederacy of the a/c will consist of nations those three nations held in common, imo. The last kingdom that held dominion over Israel was Rome, thus the iron of the ten toes, the clay represents non-Roman nations, mostly Islamic from the eastern part of Rome's empire. I ignore the Ottoman empire because, prophetically, they were insignificant to the nation of Israel. They may have been in the land Israel once held, but during its reign, Israel was no longer a nation.

ewq1938 said:

Apparently not since you mentioned Rome.

"the bear-like beast was the Greece and the leopard-like beast was Rome"

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It's only mentioned in a historical context because most historicists need the 4th beast of Dan. 7 to be Rome but it is not.

Jay Ross said:

This understanding is based on a number of wrong assumptions. The first is that the five beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 represent nations/people groups. In reality the five beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are fallen wicked heavenly hosts, i.e. probably angels. These beastly angels, i.e. the four winds of heaven, are able to stir up the sea of humanity such that the sea that rises up to manifest the beasts are people groups, kingdoms, nations and empires who are being influenced by the fallen wicked heavenly hosts such that the people groups, kingdoms, nations and empires manifest the reported dominate characteristic of the respective beasts.

Now Babylon cannot be the first beast because from around 120 BC up and until 1926 AH, i.e. for two ages, there was no kingdom that existed over the land of Babylon, during this time period.

Now I know that many recite the kingdoms that have had dominion over the land of Babylon are

1, Babylon, 2, Mede Persia, 3, Greece, 4, Rome, and 5, the revived Roamn Empire.

However, the Seleucid Grecian Empire, devasted and desolated the Babylonian Empire, which it had dominion over, around 120 BC, and that no other nation or people group had dominion over the Land of Babylon until both the French and the British governments established the nation of Iraq to have dominion over the Land of Babylon in 1926 AD. This means that we have to rule out the Roman Empire and the Revised Roman Empire as being the fourth and fifth segments of the Statue prophecy in Daniel 2.

Perhaps you have a need to further your studies of the scriptures to establish your facts on what the entity types are of the five beasts in Daniel 7:1-12. I stopped reading your posts once I got to the end of the paragraph that I quoted.

Shalom

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It's not dominion over the land of Babylon that matters, it's dominion over Israel that does. Perhaps you'd better re-study your history. The Babylon spoken of by Daniel was in the time of the 70 yr. captivity, hundreds of years before 120 bc. Perhaps knowing who the 8 kings mentioned in Rev. 17:10-11 are would help. The order is based upon historical dominion over Israel. The kings themselves don't matter, it's the nations they ruled over that do. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome (the one that is). I believe the 7th was Germany and the 8th will be the beast kingdom of Rev. 13:1.

Jay Ross said:

That is the justification given for the continuing misunderstanding of who the beasts are. In reality the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12, which is our present reality, are wicked heavenly hosts who cause their relative dominate characteristic to become manifested within people groups from the sea of humanity to do their bidding.

This understanding was, from my perspective, the basis/reasoning for Prophecy Talk to be closed down. People firmly believed that they could list the people groups who would act as the respective beasts over time.

While ever we attribute the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 as being people groups, kingdoms, nations and empires we demonstrate a lacking of abilities in our discernment conclusions.

Back in the Days of Prophecy Talk I was posting this argument, "that people groups chose to inhabit the dominions of the respective beasts and did the respective beasts bidding" and members, like Dadda and Bondiharry objected to this POV, insisted that their where up to 15 people group beasts that they rattled off to "prove" their understanding.

Nothing has changed since then and people still hold to this false understanding that the beasts are a human entity.

Shalom

PS: - I, under a different handle, even had conversations with "Scott A" on Prophecy Talk but those conversations were on very different topics.

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I disagree. Daniel is simply one of the cases where symbolism is used to describe earthly matters. It's historically proven. There are things that should be regarded as spiritual and things that shouldn't. The angel explains these things to Daniel. Take his word for it.

Jay Ross said:

Yes, you are right that symbolism is often found in the scriptures but with respect to the beasts in Daniel, there is no connecting typology between Daniel 2 and Daniel 7, but this typology was constructed at the time of the reformation to demonise the RCC.

It is my understanding that the beasts are "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms," Ephesian 6:12, and referenced as the "four winds of heaven" in Daniel 7:2 and 8:8.

The beasts manifesting the stirred-up sea of humanity have all the prominent characteristics of the four beastly winds of heaven as described.

The reformation beastly theology took no account of the manifesting human beasts ebbing and flowing between people groups, kingdoms, nation and empires over time which history clearly exposes.

Shalom

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Every nation has always had spiritual forces over them. That is what the realization of the armor of God is all about. We battle against spiritual forces but they control, in most cases, the humanity within their sphere of influence, so sometimes through prayer we battle against them as well. Daniel 2 & 7 were written hundreds of years before the RCC came into existence. They are not a present force that needs to be reckoned with. Any "human" beast is most likely under demonic spirits.

Jay Ross said:

That is what I have stated. The four winds of heaven, who are the real influencing beasts manifest themselves in the sea of humanity as people groups, nations and empires ebb and flow in and out of the influence of the respective beasts over time.

After Armageddon, the heavenly beastly influences as well as Satan will be imprisoned for many days in a pit to await the time of their punishment.

I also accept that Daniel was written well before the RCC came into existence, but the reformation fathers falsely linked Daniel 2 with Daniel 7 with a false topological understanding to justify their demonise of the RCC so that the reformation Churches could break away from the influence of the RCC.

The Reformation fathers falsely ignored that the Daniel 2 Statue Prophecy was written about the nations and empires that would have dominion over the Land of Babylon but since it was known from Jeremiah 50:39 that Babylon would be devasted and desolated for a two-age period of time, i.e. for around 2,048 years, and that no nation of empire would exercise dominion over the land of Babylon from around 120 BC up to, as we know from history now, 1926 AD, the changed the understanding of the Statue prophecy to be about empires that would hold "global" domination so as to inject the Roman Empire into the statue prophecy. Then by linking the empires who had dominion over the land of Babylon and the known earth, they then linked the four beasts to the four known empires that had exercised worldly dominion, with the Roman Empire/RCC being linked with the fourth beast because the fourth beast, encouraged by the Little Horn, spoke pompous words against God which were blasphemous which was what the reformation fathers were accusing the RCC of doing.

If we consider the nations that had dominion over the Land of Babylon, they were: -

1. Babylon.
2. Medes and Persians
3. Grecian

Two ages where the land was devastated and desolated from around 120 BC up to 1926 AD.

1. Iraq and
2. The USA in league with up to twenty other nations.

Shalom

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As I stated earlier, dominion over the land of Babylon is irrelevant, it's who had dominion over Israel that matters. Daniel is all about Israel.

Jay Ross said:

But Daniel 2 is primarily all about who held dominion over the Land of Babylon with some references to God's everlasting Kingdom and when it would appear and that during the time of these kings, a rock will come down out of heaven and crush all the kingdoms that make up the five segments of the statue.

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It not about the land it's about military superiority, in and of itself. Medo-Persia defeats Babylon, Greece defeats Medo-Persia, Rome defeats Greece but Israel just happens to be in that area as innocent bystanders, so to speak, except they did have some battles w/ Greece. Cyrus, the Persian leader did show grace to Israel and financed the rebuilding of the temple. Cyrus is who is being talked about in Dan. 7:4.

Jay Ross said:

If that is the way you want to understand the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy, far be it for me to disagree with your error.

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If the word of God makes sense, don't go seeking another sense. With the exception of the 5th kingdom that hasn't arrived yet, the first four kingdoms of Dan. 2 and the first three kingdoms of Dan. 7 identities have been historically proven. There's no need to create a non-existent scenario.