Dumbing it down!
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bdavidc
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I would not state it that way. The Bible certainly teaches the wrath of God and the fear of God, and no faithful Christian should soften either one. “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” ~Hebrews 10:31. Jesus also said, “Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” ~Matthew 10:28.
So yes, the fear of God is not optional. The wrath of God is not a side note. “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men” ~Romans 1:18.
But to say the main doctrine of the Bible is wrath or fear is too narrow. The Bible’s central message is God revealing Himself in holiness, judging sin righteously, and saving sinners through Jesus Christ for His own glory.
Wrath is real because God is holy. Fear is right because God is righteous. But the gospel is not merely “God is wrathful.” The gospel is that guilty sinners can be saved because Christ bore wrath in the place of His people.
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God” ~1 Peter 3:18.
That is why we must not pit God’s attributes against each other. God is love ~1 John 4:8. God is holy ~1 Peter 1:16. God is just ~Romans 3:26. God is wrathful against sin ~Romans 1:18. All of that is true at the same time.
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom ~Proverbs 9:10, but Christ is still the center of redemption. Jesus said the Scriptures testify of Him ~John 5:39. So we should preach wrath, judgment, and hell plainly, but not as the whole message. We preach them because they show why sinners must flee to Christ.
Wrath tells us what we deserve.
The cross tells us what Christ endured.
The resurrection tells us salvation is real.
And the gospel tells sinners where mercy is found.
So yes, fear God. Absolutely. But do not reduce the whole Bible to wrath and fear. The Bible reveals the holy God who judges sin and saves sinners through Jesus Christ alone.
The love of God VS the wrath / fear of God. Guess which is the main doctrine in the Bible.
Psalm 111:10
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;
The most important doctrine in the NT: Hell Fire!
Wrangler
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The IDOL and circular reasoning is God NOT limited even though it’s axiomatic that everything that exists has limited. God’s love is limited by his justice. Denying this they make God’s love meaningless. As you pointed out, nothing says I love you like killing you, sacrificing you to the cause of justice.
Amen.
Ezek 18:32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Ezek 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
bdavidc
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Your argument puts God’s love on one side and His wrath and fear on the other, as though the Bible makes us choose which truth gets to live and which one has to be buried. Scripture does no such thing.
God is love. “He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love” ~1 John 4:8. But that same God is holy, righteous, and just. “God is angry with the wicked every day” ~Psalm 7:11. The Bible does not blush at either truth, and neither should we.
The cross is where this false division dies.
At Calvary, God did not set aside His wrath to show love. He satisfied His justice through the death of His Son. “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness” ~Romans 3:25. That word “propitiation” means wrath was dealt with. Not ignored. Not softened. Not explained away. Dealt with by blood.
That is why Romans says God is “just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus” ~Romans 3:26. Love did not cancel justice. Justice did not cancel love. Both met in Christ.
And the fear of the Lord is not some ugly Old Testament leftover that love came to erase. Scripture says, “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom” ~Proverbs 9:10. If a man has no fear of God, he has not become spiritually mature. He has not even started where wisdom starts.
Jesus Himself said, “Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” ~Matthew 10:28. That was not Moses. That was not a prophet under the law. That was the Lord Jesus Christ.
So we had better be careful about preaching a love that Jesus never preached. The love of God is not sentimental permission to make peace with sin. The love of God sent the Son to save sinners from the wrath they deserve. “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him” ~Romans 5:9.
That is the question Scripture presses on the conscience: saved from what?
If there is no wrath, the cross becomes theater. If there is no judgment, mercy becomes decoration. If there is no fear of the Lord, sinners will never tremble at His Word, never flee to Christ, and never understand why grace is amazing.
God’s love is real. God’s wrath is real. The fear of the Lord is right. And the gospel is the only place where guilty sinners can find mercy without God ceasing to be just.
So the issue is not whether love is important. The issue is whether we will let Scripture define God, or whether we will carve away the parts of God that make modern ears uncomfortable.
Wrangler
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That’s your categorization. Others suppose they work in ”harmony,” which is just another way of saying in practice God’s love is on one side and His wrath and fear on the other.
I was going to post my own thoughts (and probably still will) but decided to ask a dear friend the question ... What would you say the person who asks, "Does God love those He will burn forever in hell?"
What followed was a conversation between us ....my mind goes to scripture that states "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son ...that whosoever believeth..."
My friend said, "Of course He loves them. But that doesn't negate the need for justice. Without love there is no justice. If I see someone raping you, my love steps in to stop it. That's justice." So then I mentioned the fact that God's love is still available for the rapist if they repent. And my friend said, "Yes, that's mercy. Mercy triumphs over justice where there is repentance."
Interesting conversation. God's love doesn't cease. He isn't limited .... He's not bipolar ....love one minute, hate the next. We're trying to measure God by our own carnal mind and it doesn't work. God is limitless.
I love what @bdavidc is saying, because #1, it's truth ...and #2, it's beautiful. God's love has no limits ....just repent, be sorrowful for your sins ...and the remedy is applied. Jesus already paid the price. God's wrath for sin is satisfied ...and His love is extended to you, and me ...and the whole world. We just have to receive it.
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
What followed was a conversation between us ....my mind goes to scripture that states "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son ...that whosoever believeth..."
My friend said, "Of course He loves them. But that doesn't negate the need for justice. Without love there is no justice. If I see someone raping you, my love steps in to stop it. That's justice." So then I mentioned the fact that God's love is still available for the rapist if they repent. And my friend said, "Yes, that's mercy. Mercy triumphs over justice where there is repentance."
Interesting conversation. God's love doesn't cease. He isn't limited .... He's not bipolar ....love one minute, hate the next. We're trying to measure God by our own carnal mind and it doesn't work. God is limitless.
I love what @bdavidc is saying, because #1, it's truth ...and #2, it's beautiful. God's love has no limits ....just repent, be sorrowful for your sins ...and the remedy is applied. Jesus already paid the price. God's wrath for sin is satisfied ...and His love is extended to you, and me ...and the whole world. We just have to receive it.
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
bdavidc
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No, that is not what I said, and it is not what Scripture says.
Scripture does not put God’s love, holiness, wrath, justice, and fear into conflict. They are all true because God is one. The problem comes when someone uses “love” in a way that softens wrath, or uses “wrath” in a way that empties love of mercy.
The Bible says, “God is love” ~1 John 4:8. It also says, “For our God is a consuming fire” ~Hebrews 12:29. Both are true. But neither verse gives us permission to redefine the other.
John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son.” John 3:36 also says, “he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Same chapter. Same truth. God’s love does not erase His wrath, and His wrath does not cancel what Scripture says about His love.
The fear of God is also not the enemy of God’s love. Scripture says, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge” ~Proverbs 1:7. It also says, “Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him” ~Psalm 103:13.
So the issue is not “harmony” as a slogan. The issue is whether each doctrine is being defined by Scripture. God’s love must be defined by Scripture. God’s wrath must be defined by Scripture. The fear of the Lord must be defined by Scripture.
What I reject is taking one biblical truth and using it to smother another. That is not balance. That is mishandling the Word.
Wrangler
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No one said they are in conflict. In harmony. Limited. It means the same thing in practice.
Agreed, people who study use big words to impress and intimidate others. God's Word is for 12/13 year olds to understand.We make it too complicated! A child can understand God's will for us.
In the beginning God.. and the Word was with God and was God
The Word became flesh
He came down from heaven and dwelt among us
Repent
Believe on the Lord Jesus- for the forgiveness of your sins
We love God because He first loved us.!!!
Be baptized and gather with other believers
Trust Him and read the scriptures
-Abide in His love- yield to the Spirit
Pray for understanding and for all things
Forgive others
Treat others the way you want to be treated-
do good for others
Give mercy
Beware of the snare of wealth- be generous
Don't worry- trust and pray!
Walk with God in the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh
If you do sin- apologize and plead the blood of our precious Lord
Never get too wise in your own eyes- stay humble
Share the love of God with others as you are able
Rejoice in the Lord always! Focus on good things!
Love and obey- He is the only way-
We will all stand before Christ to answer for the deeds we did in our bodies.
Let the petty fights begin- I have nothing more to say!
May you all be blessed!
But Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul!
amen- and love one another. If we truly love God we should love one another.
yes- loving Him with all that we are, everything else will align with His commands and will.
We will love what He loves and hate what HE hates.
Wrangler
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