Abraham thought about heavenly things, called himself a pilgrim on the earth Heb 11:8-16
You dont seem to have the Faith of Abraham
"True" Israel?
- Thread starter Randy Kluth
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You dont seem to have the Faith of Abraham
So you equate Iran’s and Ukraine’s war-torn devastation, massive human slaughter, ruined landscapes, and bombed out cities with God’s protection?
There is a big difference between devastated bare existence and divine protection.
I'm just a Bible believing Christian, not an Israel wannabee trying to steal Israel's identity.
Gee, I wonder why they don't move to those 'wonderful' places.
The point is, they all the same, God doesnt favor none of them , He may favor elect individuals within any one them, but that's it, te rest are damned.
Translation: TOOT TOOT!
Did you ever figure out where Jesus will return? It's called ISRAEL, the Land of the Bible!
Zechariah 14:1-4
1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, ...
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; ...
3 Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
The future of jealous wannabees trying to STEAL Israel's identity:
Zechariah 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
The Mystery is that the Gentiles God has been calling are Israel.
Rom 11:23-27
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
When the Fulness of the Gentiles have completed, then God has fulfilled the promise that all Israel shall be saved
Eph 3:3-8
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 18
Rom 11:23-27
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
When the Fulness of the Gentiles have completed, then God has fulfilled the promise that all Israel shall be saved
Eph 3:3-8
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 18
A Saviour unto Israel
Acts 13:23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
This was not Peter here, but Paul, the apostle unto the gentiles, who makes this very important statement, and sheds much light upon for whom Jesus Christ came to save as according to promise..
Another important scripture that lends to the truth of this is Lk 1:68-69
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [see Matt 1: 21]
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70As he spake [or promised] by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
This promise of redemption of His people, as the Lord God of Israel, hath been revealed and promised since the world began..
This takes us back to the first proclamation of the promised salvation or redemption to Gen 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel
This seed of the women would be Israel [Christ and His People]..and the which, salvations first promise is to and for this seed Israel, the seed of the women..
This is some what typed out or signified in Rev 12:1-2
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. [the birth of Jesus Christ]
This women had also a seed as we see later in Rev 12:17
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
[ so Christ and his Members are the seed of the women Gal 3:16,29]
So salvation and redemption from the conception of the world, had only a particular seed in view, which later became known as Israel..
But now, its important to understand, that the Israel paul is referring to in Acts 13:23..is not Israel according to the flesh..but Israel according to Promise..
Lets show here how paul discerned another Israel other than national Israel Rom 9:6
Not as though the word [or promise] of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel [Acts 13:23],] which are of Israel [nationally]:
You see, the promises of redemption and salvation as stated in Lk 1:68-70, to the people of God, the God of Israel, the promise were not to national israel..but a spiritual remnant within that nation, and as we will find out, a spiritual remnant among the nations of the world, which constituted Israel,[Rom 11] the one Paul preached in Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Now Paul had the Israel of God [Rom 9:6] in view when he made this statement in the above..
Now get this next point, for its tricky, but nevertheless its extremely important because of the symmetry and analogy of scripture.
The difference between what Paul preached here in Acts 13 :23 and what peter taught here in Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
The difference is this. For peter was correct in that Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God to give repentance to a certain chosen people Israel. But what Peter did not know but what Paul did know..is this:
That Israel was no longer viewed as a mere physical ethnic nation, but that Israel was comprised of Gentiles as well, who became Israel..
Notice. Eph 2:12,19
12 That at that time ye [gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
They [Gentiles] are now no more strangers and aliens, but fellowcitizens [of Israel Gods chosen people] and so now they also have the same right to be called Israel,
in fact, even more of a right than the non elect jews of that nation. Because the Israel of God was never non elect jews, but Elect Jews like Jacob over Esau or Isaac over Ishmael..Children of promise..
So salvation and redemption has always been limited unto Israel as a people, but the mystery that was not clearly unveiled since the world began [Gen 3:15]
Eph 3:3-6
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [Lk 1: 68-70]
In that Israel was made up of Gentiles also.. Yes that's the unveiling in more detail by Paul of this mystery..[Israel of God was never a physical nation but a Spiritual people or Nation Rom 2,1Pet 2 ]
but nevertheless, true to promise, salvation and redemption is and has always been limited to a chosen people [Israel]..not limited to a certain geographical location as national Israel in the middle east or a certain ethical people [respect of persons], but the scope of this Israel of God is world wide..but nevertheless its only to the world of Gods Israel, all others, are blinded..
You know how Paul says in Rom 9: 6
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
So likewise, they are not all the world [for whom Christ died] which are of the world [the inhabited earth]
Just like there was an Israel within Israel that God had a respect and favor for, likewise there is a world within the world that God has a special regard for, and that world is the Israel of God, the Spiritual seed of Abraham. 1
And when Jesus returns it will be to the Land of Israel! And He will dissolve the JEALOUS wannabees attacking Israel.
Salvation Limited to Israel
Here are some more scriptures that set forth the particular nature of salvation from types..
In looking forward to the work of the cross and its accomplishments and its attending blessings, and to who they applied, we have this in Zech 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Notice here to whom the spiritual blessings of repentance was to be poured out to..
Not everyone in the whole wide world, but to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem..
The Jerusalem here is not the city in Israel, but the Jerusalem from above:
Gal 4:12
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Heb 12:23
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Zech 12 is describing their conversion because of the power and blessings of the cross.
Notice it says the house of David ! The House of David or the Tabernacle of David includes the Gentiles.
This we see Acts 15:14-16
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
The gentiles are called the tabernacle of David, intimating the mystery that Paul fully taught about in His Ministry, but we see here that the apostle James had somewhat been enlightened of the scripture, for he quotes Amos 9:11-12
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
And he of course applies this to the out calling of a people from amongst the gentiles to be a people for Gods name sake. The LORD GOD OF ISRAEL.
Zech 13:1
1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Again, particularly pointing out to whom the fountain was open to. That cleanses from sin and unclearness [the blood of Christ] it was not to or for all mankind, but for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the house of David.
These designations indicate Gods elect apart from the other inhabitants of the world.
So God has always kept a particular discriminate people to whom He deals with favorably, over and above other people. And its by His grace alone.
Here are some more scriptures that set forth the particular nature of salvation from types..
In looking forward to the work of the cross and its accomplishments and its attending blessings, and to who they applied, we have this in Zech 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Notice here to whom the spiritual blessings of repentance was to be poured out to..
Not everyone in the whole wide world, but to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem..
The Jerusalem here is not the city in Israel, but the Jerusalem from above:
Gal 4:12
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Heb 12:23
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Zech 12 is describing their conversion because of the power and blessings of the cross.
Notice it says the house of David ! The House of David or the Tabernacle of David includes the Gentiles.
This we see Acts 15:14-16
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
The gentiles are called the tabernacle of David, intimating the mystery that Paul fully taught about in His Ministry, but we see here that the apostle James had somewhat been enlightened of the scripture, for he quotes Amos 9:11-12
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
And he of course applies this to the out calling of a people from amongst the gentiles to be a people for Gods name sake. The LORD GOD OF ISRAEL.
Zech 13:1
1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Again, particularly pointing out to whom the fountain was open to. That cleanses from sin and unclearness [the blood of Christ] it was not to or for all mankind, but for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the house of David.
These designations indicate Gods elect apart from the other inhabitants of the world.
So God has always kept a particular discriminate people to whom He deals with favorably, over and above other people. And its by His grace alone.
More on the Mystery
Back to the Mystery that paul was called to expound on moreso than any other apostle, and which he proclaimed[ by the gospel] is that the True
Israel of God [ Gal 6:16], the True seed of abraham [ Rom 9:8 , Heb 2:16] who are the heirs of the promises of God [ Gal 3: 7,29 ; 2 Cor 1:20; Rom 15:8; Acts 13:32] are a body composed of all those, wether jew by birth or gentile by birth, who are of the Faith of abraham, who is the father of us all [Rom 4:16,13]vs 13
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
The world here is that world that Abraham was made Father of as in Gen 17:5
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
People of the many nations are this world..
Back to the Mystery that paul was called to expound on moreso than any other apostle, and which he proclaimed[ by the gospel] is that the True
Israel of God [ Gal 6:16], the True seed of abraham [ Rom 9:8 , Heb 2:16] who are the heirs of the promises of God [ Gal 3: 7,29 ; 2 Cor 1:20; Rom 15:8; Acts 13:32] are a body composed of all those, wether jew by birth or gentile by birth, who are of the Faith of abraham, who is the father of us all [Rom 4:16,13]vs 13
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
The world here is that world that Abraham was made Father of as in Gen 17:5
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
People of the many nations are this world..
Jesus christ being a Saviour is not complete if sinners are not converted unto Him and God. Even David , after being restored, promised God that sinners would be converted unto Thee Ps 51:12-13
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Now how much more, the Great Antitype, who was restored by His resurrection from the grave, how much more will He teach sinners [by his Holy Spirit] and that they shall be converted unto God ?
That was one of the ends in Jesus christ dying, in order to bring the sheep back to God 1 Pet 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
So the death of Christ doesnt just make salvation possible, but it in fact makes effectual the conversion of all for whom He died and rose again.1
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Now how much more, the Great Antitype, who was restored by His resurrection from the grave, how much more will He teach sinners [by his Holy Spirit] and that they shall be converted unto God ?
That was one of the ends in Jesus christ dying, in order to bring the sheep back to God 1 Pet 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
So the death of Christ doesnt just make salvation possible, but it in fact makes effectual the conversion of all for whom He died and rose again.1
Davy
Well-Known Member
Nah... you're just listening to some Biblically illiterate country preacher that when they don't really understand the Scripture they resort to 'spiritualizing' it.
That Zechariah 12:10 verse is 'literally'... about the unbelieving Jews in the city of Jerusalem, on earth. The Jerusalem above that is free which Paul preached does not have king David upon a throne. David is to return to earth to be a "prince" with Lord Jesus sitting upon His inherited EARTHLY THRONE of David which Jesus inherited by promise from The Father. That has NOT happened yet today, and will ONLY happen at Jesus' future RETURN.
This is why Zech.12 shows those Jews in mourning, because it represents Jesus' future return when their spiritual blindness will be REMOVED, and they will KNOW that Jesus of Nazareth is Messiah, The Christ. And they will wish for the mountains and hills to fall upon themselves because of their shame. And Apostle Paul TOLD YOU about this in Romans 11 about the spirit of slumber God put upon the majority of Paul's brethren the Jews, and for us to not be conceited about it. Yet conceited is exactly what you teachers are, because the doctrine of men you are pushing totally disregards what Apostle Paul taught there in Romans 11 about that blindness being removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
Davy
Well-Known Member
WRONG... again. The house of David is SPECIFICALLY about the SEED of promise from God that would sit upon the throne of LITERAL Israel. It's about the LITERAL EARTHLY THRONE of David (which is STILL upon this earth somewhere today, with a descendant of the David's lineage sitting upon it, as God promised David). Jesus when He comes will inherit it, and Jesus' twelve Apostles will each sit upon a throne judging the twelve tribes of Israel, and that means the SEED of Israel and not Gentiles.
The believing Gentiles are part of Christ's Church, but the SEED of Israel never stopped being Israelites, regardless of what they believe today. And just because there are Israelites of the SEED that believe on Jesus Christ that does NOT mean they stopped being Israelites either. It's like I said, lot of country preachers out there that are Biblically illiterate tend to 'spiritualize' The Bible when they don't understand it.
The "tabernacle of David" means the ROYAL SCEPTRE of the lineage of David, of which Christ Jesus is the main Anchor point in final, sitting upon David's earthly throne judging all the kingdoms of this world, beginning at His future return.
That "fountain" is about God's River, a LITERAL RIVER that flowed out from God's Garden of Eden on earth per Genesis 2 and fed four other rivers upon this earth, two of which still exist on earth today. Per Ezekiel 47, that River will flow out from Christ's future Millennial "sanctuary" to feed other waters upon this earth, healing them. And on either side of that River will be the Tree of Life with its many fruits and leaves for healing of the nations. This was only hinted at in Revelation, but more detail of it is shown in Ezekiel 47, a part of The Bible which Biblically illiterate country preachers rarely ever read.
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