OT Grammarian proof of Trinity

Grailhunter · Saturday at 11:32 PM

dak said:
The motive in what I said is politeness. If the OP wants to go down that trail, then I will let him respond, but I can assure you that after several pages you will not like what happens to your statement/assertion in the end.

The last statement in post 25
The one God of the Old Testament impregnated a woman and what she delivered was a God....the Savior of the world. The Son of God.
This is the truth and the truth is important and has power.

Justified · Sunday at 6:37 PM

Grailhunter said:
You did the same for my verses.

Not at all. You'll see that I did address most of your verses; I addressed everything that needed addressing.

Grailhunter said:
And Yeshua even explained the oneness concept but no one listens, so there yea go.

But have you listened to Jesus, and if so, have you actually understood? You provided John 17:21-22, but there is much more context that needs to be understood, both within John and without. First, John 1:1-18, which clearly shows the eternal nature of the Son while yet remaining distinct from the Father. Second is Jesus's I Am statements, mainly in John 8, particularly 8:58, which clearly speaks to his eternal nature. Third are the many statements of Jesus speaking of his existence prior to coming to earth, not the least of which is in the very context of the verses you gave, in John 17:5, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."

Then we have John 10:30:

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

That can only be speaking of unity of essence or substance, that is, sameness of nature. It cannot mean unity in mission or plan or will, otherwise the Jews would have claimed the same. It cannot mean unity of person, as "one" is neuter and Jesus is clearly making a distinction between he and the Father.

Grailhunter said:
If there was three Gods in one it would have been so odd that the scriptures would have made it clear.

Why do you presume to believe such a thing? God used progressive revelation throughout the Bible, so why should he change that? It may not be explicitly mentioned, but it is definitely implied. The facts remain: there is only one God (always has been), yet the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are both spoken of in language that attributes deity to them and a oneness with God. Tritheism is absolutely ruled out as a possibility.

Grailhunter said:
And I am sure you have read that Yahweh new when the end of time would occur and Yeshua did not. And Yahweh had authority that Yeshua did not And Yeshua sits on the right hand of Yahweh. And a fundamental belief that He is the Son of God, not the Son of Himself.....A three headed God? or they fell into a cosmic blender?

Again, your straw man that proves you don't even understand the doctrine of the Trinity. It begs the question as to why you argue so much against something you don't understand, even to the point of believing heresy.

Grailhunter said:
As for as it the three in one formula being biblical ....
The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.” Which hold true to the fact that the word Trinity does not occur in the Holy Bible.
The reason it says 4th and 5th century is that the Catholic Church came up with this doctrine to silence the disagreements over God the Father and God the Son because Emperor Constantine insisted on one belief even if it was wrong. Then enforced it upon excommunication or death.

And yet the belief that Jesus was God, yet not the Father, while retaining the biblical foundation of monotheism, has been around much longer. Here is just one example, from Athenagoras's Plea for Christians (ca. 177 AD):

"CHAP. X.--THE CHRISTIANS WORSHIP THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST.

That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being--I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say "His Logos"], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason (nous kai logos) of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind [nous], had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos [logikos]; but inasmuch as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter. The prophetic Spirit also agrees with our statements. "The Lord," it says, "made me, the beginning of His ways to His works." The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists? Nor is our teaching in what relates to the divine nature confined to these points; but we recognise also a multitude of angels and ministers, whom God the Maker and Framer of the world distributed and ap pointed to their several posts by His Logos, to occupy themselves about the elements, and the heavens, and the world, and the things in it, and the goodly ordering of them all."

Athenagoras of Athens: A Plea for the Christians

Grailhunter said:
And of course the Apostles referred to Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord.

Yes, but they also referred to Jesus as God:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.

Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

And that would be because Jesus strongly implied he was God.

Grailhunter said:
As it stands it is one of the longest and most popular false beliefs.

You haven't proven it false, not even close. All you have shown is that you don't even understand what you argue against. But an actual false belief, a heresy, that has been around significantly longer is polytheism, which obviously includes tritheism.

Grailhunter · Sunday at 6:41 PM

Justified said:
Not at all. You'll see that I did address most of your verses; I addressed everything that needed addressing.

Have not seen it yet.

Grailhunter · Sunday at 6:43 PM

Justified said:
And yet the belief that Jesus was God, yet not the Father, while retaining the biblical foundation of monotheism, has been around much longer. Here is just one example, from Athenagoras's Plea for Christians

Monotheism is a Jewish belief.
Christianity has Yahweh and He a God and Yeshua and He is God and the Holy Spirit and He is a God.

Grailhunter · Sunday at 6:45 PM

Justified said:
That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being--I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say "His Logos"], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason (nous kai logos) of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind [nous], had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos [logikos]; but inasmuch as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter. The prophetic Spirit also agrees with our statements. "The Lord," it says, "made me, the beginning of His ways to His works." The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists? Nor is our teaching in what relates to the divine nature confined to these points; but we recognise also a multitude of angels and ministers, whom God the Maker and Framer of the world distributed and ap pointed to their several posts by His Logos, to occupy themselves about the elements, and the heavens, and the world, and the things in it, and the goodly ordering of them all."

Like I said Yeshua explained the oneness concept.

Grailhunter · Sunday at 6:59 PM

Justified said:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.

Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

And that would be because Jesus strongly implied he was God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 – “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isaiah 45:5 – “I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God but Me”
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Psalm 86:10 – “For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God”

There is no doubt that Yeshua is a God, and Yahweh is a God and the Holy Spirit is a God. And the God Yeshua sits on the right hand of Yahweh.
At one point Yahweh name was in the Old Testament about 6,800 times, then they took it out. In most scriptures in the OT when you see the word God or Lord, that was Yahweh's name. In the scriptures above where you see God or Lord that was Yahweh.
Yahweh said He created all things. Yahweh said He was the only God and there was no one like Him.
I am going to take His word for it. You can let the scriptures battle each other in the apparent contradiction. But I believe Yahweh.
On the other hand Yeshua's name does not appear in the OT and nothing by His name happens. Nothing happens by the Son of God....As if you could call Him that back then. It definitely appears like a rewriting of history.
In the New Testament Yahweh has a begotten Son, and that Son is a God. 50 times Yeshua refers to Yahweh as His Father or His Father in Heaven. Yahweh love His Son Yeshua, He does not love Himself. Yeshua ascended to His Father and sits on His right.
And again as I said, Yeshua explained the oneness concept.

Justified · 2026-06-15T21:11:02-0500

Grailhunter said:
Have not seen it yet.

You’ll have to go back and read; it’s all there.

Grailhunter said:
Monotheism is a Jewish belief.
Christianity has Yahweh and He a God and Yeshua and He is God and the Holy Spirit and He is a God.

And Christianity is a continuation of the Jewish story, with Jesus as the long-expected Messiah. So monotheism necessarily remains a foundation of Christianity, as attested to throughout the NT, even by Jesus himself. And that is precisely what we should expect.

Grailhunter said:
Like I said Yeshua explained the oneness concept.

Yes, which you seem to have misunderstood.

Grailhunter said:
Deuteronomy 6:4 – “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

Isaiah 45:5 – “I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God but Me”

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Psalm 86:10 – “For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God”

I’ve already addressed these—they are statements of monotheism, which the doctrine of the Trinity, being a Christian doctrine, fully affirms.

Grailhunter said:
There is no doubt that Yeshua is a God, and Yahweh is a God and the Holy Spirit is a God.

That is a theological and logical impossibility. One God. Polytheism is unbiblical and anti-Christ.

Grailhunter said:
And the God Yeshua sits on the right hand of Yahweh.

Yes, Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father.

Grailhunter said:
Yahweh said He created all things.

Because he did. And the Father says the Son also created all things, in those passages you quote above but keep ignoring:

Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

As well as:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Grailhunter said:
Yahweh said He was the only God and there was no one like Him.

I know. The question is, why do you believe that, but you don’t believe what else he says?

Isa 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

You have God either lying or ignorant, as it contradicts your claim that “The one God of the Old Testament impregnated a woman and what she delivered was a God....the Savior of the world. The Son of God.”

Grailhunter said:
I am going to take His word for it.

Exelceot you don’t. You state above that, “Yeshua is a God, and Yahweh is a God and the Holy Spirit is a God.”

Grailhunter said:
You can let the scriptures battle each other in the apparent contradiction. But I believe Yahweh.

Except you don’t, hence why your position puts scripture in contradiction with itself.

Grailhunter said:
On the other hand Yeshua's name does not appear in the OT and nothing by His name happens. Nothing happens by the Son of God....

Which is entirely irrelevant.

Grailhunter said:
As if you could call Him that back then. It definitely appears like a rewriting of history.

Then you must necessarily throw out the entire NT, because the doctrine of the Trinity is based on the clear eternal, divine nature of the Son as revealed therein.

Grailhunter said:
In the New Testament Yahweh has a begotten Son, and that Son is a God.

See, here you go again, telling God he was either lying or ignorant, while ignoring numerous passages in the NT.

Grailhunter said:
50 times Yeshua refers to Yahweh as His Father or His Father in Heaven.

Of course he does, why wouldn’t he?

Grailhunter said:
Yahweh love His Son Yeshua, He does not love Himself.

Yes, of course. Once again you’re showing that you don’t understand the doctrine of the Trinity with this straw man.

Grailhunter said:
Yeshua ascended to His Father and sits on His right.

I completely agree.

Grailhunter said:
And again as I said, Yeshua explained the oneness concept.

I know, which is why I said that you haven’t understood what he said.

Grailhunter · 2026-06-15T21:35:21-0500

Justified said:
And Christianity is a continuation of the Jewish story, with Jesus as the long-expected Messiah. So monotheism necessarily remains a foundation of Christianity, as attested to throughout the NT, even by Jesus himself. And that is precisely what we should expect.

The story continues for sure and the Jewish story, the Old Testament and the Old Covenant is part of that history.
But essentially Yeshua rescued us from the Old Covenant. Monotheism continues as Yahweh, God the Father, Yeshua God the Son, and the God Holy Spirit. And Yeshua knows the score as He sits to the right of Yahweh. I am thinking that Yahweh is very proud of His Son. Well He already said that, when He appeared like dove at Yeshua's baptism and said, This is my Son of whom I am well pleased. Was He saying He was pleased with Himself? I wonder if they have Father and Son night?

Grailhunter · 2026-06-15T21:37:06-0500

Justified said:
Because he did. And the Father says the Son also created all things, in those passages you quote above but keep ignoring:

Yahweh never said His Son created all things.

Grailhunter · 2026-06-15T21:42:58-0500

Justified said:
See, here you go again, telling God he was either lying or ignorant, while ignoring numerous passages in the NT.

God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Is that a lie?
Yeshua referred to Yahweh as His Father over 50 times....that is 50 verses. Is that a lie?
Yeshua ascended to His Father Yahweh. Is that a lie.
Yeshua said His Father was greater than Him. Is that a lie?
Yeshua said that His Father Yahweh knew when the end of time was not Him. Is that a lie.
Yeshua told the mother of John and James that He could give her wish for her sons to sit on either side of Him because it was not His to give. Is that a lie.

Grailhunter · 2026-06-15T21:44:23-0500

Justified said:
Yes, of course. Once again you’re showing that you don’t understand the doctrine of the Trinity with this straw man.

You do not understand that the belief of the 3 Gods in 1 God is a false belief.

Grailhunter · 2026-06-15T21:46:02-0500

Justified said:
I know, which is why I said that you haven’t understood what he said.

What Yeshua said was very clear. And He was talking to Yahweh! Yeshua was talking to Yahweh! Son to Father.

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OT Grammarian proof of Trinity

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