How Confidant Are You Being Saved?

bdavidc said:

This does not clarify the issue. It confirms it. You are defining salvation as a process in which a man is justified freely, but must afterward preserve himself through works and endurance in order to receive eternal salvation. That makes final salvation depend upon man’s performance.

Your outline begins by inserting meanings into Titus 2:14 that the verse does not give. “Redeem us from all iniquity” is redemption, but “purify unto himself a peculiar people” is not called justification. Justification is God declaring the ungodly righteous through faith in Christ: “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:24). Good works follow salvation, but they do not complete it.

You quoted 1 John 5:13, but it contradicts your position: “that ye may know that ye have eternal life.” John does not say believers merely have provisional life while waiting to see whether they persevere successfully. Jesus said the believer “hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).

Endurance is necessary, but true believers endure because God preserves them. They are “kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation” (1 Peter 1:5). Jesus said, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” (John 10:28). Paul said those whom God justified, “them he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). No justified person disappears between justification and glorification.

The warning passages call professing believers to examine themselves and continue in the faith. They do not teach that someone born of God, sealed by the Spirit, and given eternal life can become unborn, unsealed, and finally condemned. Those who permanently abandon Christ reveal what they were: “They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2:19).

The issue is not whether believers should obey, suffer, endure, and pursue holiness. They should. The issue is what guarantees their final salvation. Your answer is continued human cooperation. Scripture’s answer is Jesus Christ: “He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6).

A long list of verses still does not provide what was requested: one passage teaching that a person truly justified by God and given eternal life can finally perish.

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bdavidc said:

This does not clarify the issue. It confirms it. You are defining salvation as a process in which a man is justified freely, but must afterward preserve himself through works and endurance in order to receive eternal salvation. That makes final salvation depend upon man’s performance.

Your outline begins by inserting meanings into Titus 2:14 that the verse does not give. “Redeem us from all iniquity” is redemption, but “purify unto himself a peculiar people” is not called justification. Justification is God declaring the ungodly righteous through faith in Christ: “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:24). Good works follow salvation, but they do not complete it.

You quoted 1 John 5:13, but it contradicts your position: “that ye may know that ye have eternal life.” John does not say believers merely have provisional life while waiting to see whether they persevere successfully. Jesus said the believer “hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).

Endurance is necessary, but true believers endure because God preserves them. They are “kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation” (1 Peter 1:5). Jesus said, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” (John 10:28). Paul said those whom God justified, “them he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). No justified person disappears between justification and glorification.

The warning passages call professing believers to examine themselves and continue in the faith. They do not teach that someone born of God, sealed by the Spirit, and given eternal life can become unborn, unsealed, and finally condemned. Those who permanently abandon Christ reveal what they were: “They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2:19).

The issue is not whether believers should obey, suffer, endure, and pursue holiness. They should. The issue is what guarantees their final salvation. Your answer is continued human cooperation. Scripture’s answer is Jesus Christ: “He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6).

A long list of verses still does not provide what was requested: one passage teaching that a person truly justified by God and given eternal life can finally perish.

Click to expand...

bdavidc said:

This does not clarify the issue. It confirms it. You are defining salvation as a process in which a man is justified freely, but must afterward preserve himself through works and endurance in order to receive eternal salvation. That makes final salvation depend upon man’s performance.

Your outline begins by inserting meanings into Titus 2:14 that the verse does not give. “Redeem us from all iniquity” is redemption, but “purify unto himself a peculiar people” is not called justification. Justification is God declaring the ungodly righteous through faith in Christ: “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:24). Good works follow salvation, but they do not complete it.

You quoted 1 John 5:13, but it contradicts your position: “that ye may know that ye have eternal life.” John does not say believers merely have provisional life while waiting to see whether they persevere successfully. Jesus said the believer “hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).

Endurance is necessary, but true believers endure because God preserves them. They are “kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation” (1 Peter 1:5). Jesus said, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” (John 10:28). Paul said those whom God justified, “them he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). No justified person disappears between justification and glorification.

The warning passages call professing believers to examine themselves and continue in the faith. They do not teach that someone born of God, sealed by the Spirit, and given eternal life can become unborn, unsealed, and finally condemned. Those who permanently abandon Christ reveal what they were: “They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2:19).

The issue is not whether believers should obey, suffer, endure, and pursue holiness. They should. The issue is what guarantees their final salvation. Your answer is continued human cooperation. Scripture’s answer is Jesus Christ: “He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6).

A long list of verses still does not provide what was requested: one passage teaching that a person truly justified by God and given eternal life can finally perish.

Click to expand...

marks said:

Good day to you also! I shall heartily disagree. Israel is and remains the children of Jacob.

We are rather called the children of Abraham. Israel and the gentiles are both branches of the tree that is Abraham.

Much love!

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faithhopecharity said:

Justification is more than your narrow definition

it including sanctifying grace that makes us holy

thks

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faithhopecharity said:

Justification is more than your narrow definition

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bdavidc said:

This does not clarify the issue. It confirms it. You are defining salvation as a process in which a man is justified freely, but must afterward preserve himself through works and endurance in order to receive eternal salvation. That makes final salvation depend upon man’s performance.

Your outline begins by inserting meanings into Titus 2:14 that the verse does not give. “Redeem us from all iniquity” is redemption, but “purify unto himself a peculiar people” is not called justification. Justification is God declaring the ungodly righteous through faith in Christ: “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:24). Good works follow salvation, but they do not complete it.

You quoted 1 John 5:13, but it contradicts your position: “that ye may know that ye have eternal life.” John does not say believers merely have provisional life while waiting to see whether they persevere successfully. Jesus said the believer “hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).

Endurance is necessary, but true believers endure because God preserves them. They are “kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation” (1 Peter 1:5). Jesus said, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” (John 10:28). Paul said those whom God justified, “them he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). No justified person disappears between justification and glorification.

The warning passages call professing believers to examine themselves and continue in the faith. They do not teach that someone born of God, sealed by the Spirit, and given eternal life can become unborn, unsealed, and finally condemned. Those who permanently abandon Christ reveal what they were: “They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2:19).

The issue is not whether believers should obey, suffer, endure, and pursue holiness. They should. The issue is what guarantees their final salvation. Your answer is continued human cooperation. Scripture’s answer is Jesus Christ: “He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6).

A long list of verses still does not provide what was requested: one passage teaching that a person truly justified by God and given eternal life can finally perish.

Click to expand...

Jay Ross said:

Because I am confident in God's promises and not in my own confidence.

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bdavidc said:

This does not clarify the issue. It confirms it. You are defining salvation as a process in which a man is justified freely, but must afterward preserve himself through works and endurance in order to receive eternal salvation. That makes final salvation depend upon man’s performance.

Your outline begins by inserting meanings into Titus 2:14 that the verse does not give. “Redeem us from all iniquity” is redemption, but “purify unto himself a peculiar people” is not called justification. Justification is God declaring the ungodly righteous through faith in Christ: “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:24). Good works follow salvation, but they do not complete it.

You quoted 1 John 5:13, but it contradicts your position: “that ye may know that ye have eternal life.” John does not say believers merely have provisional life while waiting to see whether they persevere successfully. Jesus said the believer “hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).

Endurance is necessary, but true believers endure because God preserves them. They are “kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation” (1 Peter 1:5). Jesus said, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” (John 10:28). Paul said those whom God justified, “them he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). No justified person disappears between justification and glorification.

The warning passages call professing believers to examine themselves and continue in the faith. They do not teach that someone born of God, sealed by the Spirit, and given eternal life can become unborn, unsealed, and finally condemned. Those who permanently abandon Christ reveal what they were: “They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2:19).

The issue is not whether believers should obey, suffer, endure, and pursue holiness. They should. The issue is what guarantees their final salvation. Your answer is continued human cooperation. Scripture’s answer is Jesus Christ: “He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6).

A long list of verses still does not provide what was requested: one passage teaching that a person truly justified by God and given eternal life can finally perish.

Click to expand...

bdavidc said:

You still did not answer the questions. Do you presently have enough obedience and good works to enter heaven? If not, how many more do you need?

Saying that grace produces the works does not turn works into something other than works. Ephesians 2:10 says believers are created in Christ Jesus “unto good works.” God prepares and enables them, but Scripture still calls them works. Paul does not say grace makes works meritorious. That is being added to the text.

Romans 11:6 says the opposite of your argument: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.” Paul does not say works become grace when grace enables them. He says grace and works cannot both be the basis of God’s saving choice.

Romans 4:4–5 is even plainer: “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Faith does not become meritorious because it receives Christ, and works do not become non-works because God enables them.

Your statement that grace makes works “meritorious” is not found in Scripture. Jesus said that after doing everything commanded, we must still say, “We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do” (Luke 17:10). God owes eternal life to no one because of his obedience.

Romans 6:22, not verse 23, says holiness is the fruit and everlasting life is the end. But verse 23 explains how everlasting life is received: “The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” It is not wages paid for grace-enabled works.

First Peter 1:9 and Romans 13:11 speak of the future completion of salvation when believers are glorified. They do not teach that justification and eternal life remain uncertain until we have produced enough works. Jesus said the believer “hath everlasting life” and “is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24). Paul said, “whom he justified, them he also glorified” (Romans 8:30).

No one is saying a momentary profession with no continuing faith saves. Genuine faith continues and produces fruit because God preserves and changes His people. But faith is not a microscopic work that earns eternity. It is the empty hand receiving Christ.

You keep accusing others of following Reformation tradition while introducing claims such as “grace makes works meritorious,” which Scripture never says. Leave tradition out of it and answer from the text: Can a man whom God has truly justified, given eternal life, and sealed with the Holy Spirit finally perish? You still have not shown one verse that says he can.

Click to expand...

bdavidc said:

You still did not answer the questions. Do you presently have enough obedience and good works to enter heaven? If not, how many more do you need?

Saying that grace produces the works does not turn works into something other than works. Ephesians 2:10 says believers are created in Christ Jesus “unto good works.” God prepares and enables them, but Scripture still calls them works. Paul does not say grace makes works meritorious. That is being added to the text.

Romans 11:6 says the opposite of your argument: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.” Paul does not say works become grace when grace enables them. He says grace and works cannot both be the basis of God’s saving choice.

Romans 4:4–5 is even plainer: “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Faith does not become meritorious because it receives Christ, and works do not become non-works because God enables them.

Your statement that grace makes works “meritorious” is not found in Scripture. Jesus said that after doing everything commanded, we must still say, “We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do” (Luke 17:10). God owes eternal life to no one because of his obedience.

Romans 6:22, not verse 23, says holiness is the fruit and everlasting life is the end. But verse 23 explains how everlasting life is received: “The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” It is not wages paid for grace-enabled works.

First Peter 1:9 and Romans 13:11 speak of the future completion of salvation when believers are glorified. They do not teach that justification and eternal life remain uncertain until we have produced enough works. Jesus said the believer “hath everlasting life” and “is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24). Paul said, “whom he justified, them he also glorified” (Romans 8:30).

No one is saying a momentary profession with no continuing faith saves. Genuine faith continues and produces fruit because God preserves and changes His people. But faith is not a microscopic work that earns eternity. It is the empty hand receiving Christ.

You keep accusing others of following Reformation tradition while introducing claims such as “grace makes works meritorious,” which Scripture never says. Leave tradition out of it and answer from the text: Can a man whom God has truly justified, given eternal life, and sealed with the Holy Spirit finally perish? You still have not shown one verse that says he can.

Click to expand...