"True" Israel?

Israel Shall Be Saved in the LORD Forever

The Word of God declares an absolute, unbreakable decree concerning the destiny of His chosen people: “But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.” (Isaiah 45:17).

This everlasting salvation does not hang in a vacuum as a passive 'offer' dependent on human cooperation. It issues forth from the blood of the everlasting covenant—the very one revealed to King David in 2 Samuel 23:5: “Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire...”

This is a promised, legally guaranteed salvation for a very specific, defined people. It is 'ordered in all things and sure' because it rests entirely on the immutable decree of Jehovah, leaving zero room for human failure.

To discover who this 'Israel' is, we must look to the New Testament tracking of Abraham’s seed. The Apostle Paul explicitly reveals that the Gentile elect are legally incorporated into this inheritance: “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.” (Galatians 3:8-9).

Those who are of faith are the genuine seed of Abraham, and by legal definition, they comprise the true Israel of God (Gal 6:16). They are the specific Israel that Isaiah prophesied shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation.

This brings perfect clarity to Paul’s famous declaration in Romans 11:25-26: “...that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.”

The phrase 'all Israel' does not refer to a geopolitical, ethnic nation of unregenerate people. Rather, 'all Israel' is the completed covenant body of Christ. Once the fullness of the elect Gentiles is sovereignly grafted into the natural Olive Tree alongside the elect Jewish remnant, the true Israel is complete. Every single seed of Abraham chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world is infallibly guaranteed to be saved. The covenant cannot fail, and the Deliverer cannot fail to turn away ungodliness from His people (Matt 1:21). 1

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And Jesus will return to Israel, the Land of the Bible. MANY of Israel's enemies will DIE!

Zechariah 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

Ps 130:7-8

7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

This is not speaking about Israel of the flesh, but the Israel of God, Gods chosen people..

You see, there is a Israel that is comprised of all the seed of Abraham, the children of promise, which is made up of both elect jews and gentiles..

Rom 9:6-8

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

But this gives us to be reminded that only a chosen people have the right and privilege to hope in the LORD and His redemption.

brightfame52 said:

Israel Shall Be Saved in the LORD Forever

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Jesus said unless a man be born again he cannot enter in to God's Kingdom.

Any descendant of Abraham that does not accept Jesus as their Messiah and does not get born again go to hell when they die just like any gentile that does not does not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and does not get born again

brightfame52 said:

Those who are of faith are the genuine seed of Abraham

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Spiritual seed of Abraham yes, but the Jews are the seed of Abraham according to the flesh as Paul spoke of

Acts 2:30
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Romans 9:3
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

This is speaking of the tree that is God's family that we were no gentile belonged to and had to be grafted in.

Romans 11:13-22
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of
them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be,
but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among
them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee,
goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

brightfame52 said:

This is not speaking about Israel of the flesh

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Actually it is speaking of Israel and not of the Body of Christ.

brightfame52 said:

The phrase 'all Israel' does not refer to a geopolitical, ethnic nation of unregenerate people.

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Actually it is. Funny that God said in His Word He would bring Israel back as a nation and the highminded among us continue to boast against the natural branches in opposition to God's Word.

Apparently the highminded ones think satan brought Israel back as a nation and it's been satan who has been working miracles in Israel and has been preventing satanic moslem nations from wiping Israel off the face of the earth

As usual, the ones walking after the flesh not accepting the whole counsel of God have everything backwards.

Jack said:

And Jesus will return to Israel, the Land of the Bible. MANY of Israel's enemies will DIE!

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Change MANY over to ALL because when Jesus returns He's taking down ALL of His enemies.

brightfame52 said:

But this gives us to be reminded that only a chosen people have the right and privilege to hope in the LORD and His redemption.

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Yes, the Lord purchased salvation for ALL men, and the grace that brings salvation has come upon ALL men, and those who choose to accept the Lord and submit their lives to Him turning from their sin getting born again abiding in Him until the end of their lives... and the elect.

Dan Clarkston said:

Change MANY over to ALL because when Jesus returns He's taking down ALL of His enemies.

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No clue where Jesus, King of Jews will return? It's called Israel, the Land of the Bible.

Zechariah 14:1-4
1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, ...
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; ...
3 Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

The land that Israel came to reign over by King David was called Jerusalem. Not Israel.
Israel are the people and Jerusalem was the location.

Israel travelled through the wilderness, land don't do that, people do.
Today Jerusalem is the Capitol, the city. which is situated on a piece of land man called Israel.
It's still Jerusalem.

When the Apostles gathered, did they gather in Israel or Jerusalem?

Luk 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Act 4:16
Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.

Rom 15:25
But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

Rev 21:10
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

It's always been Jerusalem inhabited by Israel the people.

Someday maybe we'll fix that.
Hugs

Ziggy said:

The land that Israel came to reign over by King David was called Jerusalem. Not Israel.
Israel are the people and Jerusalem was the location.

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Israel is not a Land???

Ain't she beautiful, Israel the Land of the Bible, where Jesus will return.

Jack said:

Ain't she beautiful, Israel the Land of the Bible, where Jesus will return.

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If you were to follow the actual border lines that God set for Israel, it would cover a lot more territory.
Each of the tribes of Israel were allotted certain borders. Judah had from this section, Benjamin had this section, Gad this section, Nephtali this section, etc.
so if you were to look at the actual land mass that God called the promised land, Israel is incomplete.
You should read the Balfour Treaty to find out who determined what the name and land mass that would be given to them. And how they decided they would divide the land.

Ziggy said:

If you were to follow the actual border lines that God set for Israel, it would cover a lot more territory.

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Stay tuned!

Ziggy said:

Each of the tribes of Israel were allotted certain borders. Judah had from this section, Benjamin had this section, Gad this section, Nephtali this section, etc.
so if you were to look at the actual land mass that God called the promised land, Israel is incomplete.
You should read the Balfour Treaty to find out who determined what the name and land mass that would be given to them. And how they decided they would divide the land.

View attachment 86960

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Ziggy said:

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God keeps His promises.

Amos 9:14-15
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; ...
15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

Jack said:

God keeps His promises.

Amos 9:14-15
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; ...
15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

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Joe 3:16
The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17
So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Jack said:

God keeps His promises.

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I know.
Hugs

Rom 9:6

Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

According to this verse, is Paul recognizing Two distinct Israel's ? If yes, what is the difference of the Two ?

If no, then why did He use those words like that ? 1

Dan Clarkston said:

Jesus said unless a man be born again he cannot enter in to God's Kingdom.

Any descendant of Abraham that does not accept Jesus as their Messiah and does not get born again go to hell when they die just like any gentile that does not does not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and does not get born again




Spiritual seed of Abraham yes, but the Jews are the seed of Abraham according to the flesh as Paul spoke of

Acts 2:30
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Romans 9:3
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

This is speaking of the tree that is God's family that we were no gentile belonged to and had to be grafted in.

Romans 11:13-22
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of
them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be,
but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among
them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee,
goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.




Actually it is speaking of Israel and not of the Body of Christ.


Actually it is. Funny that God said in His Word He would bring Israel back as a nation and the highminded among us continue to boast against the natural branches in opposition to God's Word.

Apparently the highminded ones think satan brought Israel back as a nation and it's been satan who has been working miracles in Israel and has been preventing satanic moslem nations from wiping Israel off the face of the earth

As usual, the ones walking after the flesh not accepting the whole counsel of God have everything backwards.




Change MANY over to ALL because when Jesus returns He's taking down ALL of His enemies.





Yes, the Lord purchased salvation for ALL men, and the grace that brings salvation has come upon ALL men, and those who choose to accept the Lord and submit their lives to Him turning from their sin getting born again abiding in Him until the end of their lives... and the elect.

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THE REBUTTAL: Exposing the Geopolitical and Providential Fallacy

The Ultimate Confusion: My opponent has run completely out of covenantal arguments, so they are now attempting to use modern secular geopolitics, military history, and emotional appeals about "Satan and Muslim nations" to dictate the spiritual meaning of the New Testament.

By confusing God’s common providence over nations with His special, saving grace toward the elect, they have completely unraveled their own theology. Let us dismantle their carnal nationalism under an unyielding scriptural lens.

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1. The Fallacy of Modern Geopolitics as Spiritual Salvation

• My Opponent's Claim: The military survival and modern rebirth of the secular, geopolitical nation of Israel is an act of saving grace that proves "All Israel" means an unregenerate ethnic group, and to deny this is to credit Satan.
• The Scriptural Reality:
  • My opponent does not understand the alphabet of Reformed theology. God is the sovereign Ruler over all nations. Daniel 4:17 states that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men and gives it to whomsoever He will.
  • God performs miracles of preservation and military victory for secular nations all through history to serve His purposes. He preserved Cyrus and pagan Persia (Isa 45:1); He preserved pagan Rome to execute His decrees. Does the miraculous military survival of a secular nation mean its unregenerate citizens are saved from Hell? Absolute nonsense.
  • To credit God with the preservation of a nation in history is standard Christian doctrine; to claim that this political preservation equals the spiritual "justification of life" (Rom 5:18) is a carnal delusion. God saves souls through the blood of Christ; He manages nations through His political providence.

2. Romans 9:3-7 — The Flesh Profits Nothing

• My Opponent's Claim: Quoting Paul’s grief over his "kinsmen according to the flesh" to prove that the covenant tree of God is a physical, racial lineage.
• 
  
• The Textual Execution:
  • My opponent quotes Romans 9:3 but stops before Paul completely obliterates their argument in verses 6-7. Paul explicitly states: "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children."
  • If being the "seed according to the flesh" was enough to keep you in the covenant family, Paul wouldn't be weeping over them going to Hell! The very reason Paul is brokenhearted is because fleshly lineage does not save.
  • 
    
  • John Gill writes on Romans 9:6: "The apostle points out a distinction between the literal Israel, and the spiritual Israel... the promises of spiritual and eternal things belong only to the spiritual Israel, who are the elect of God." The true tree of God is not an ethnic family tree; it is the tree of Election and Grace.

3. The Rejection of Arminian "Self-Election"

• My Opponent's Claim: "The Lord purchased salvation for ALL men... and those who choose to accept... are the elect."
• The Sovereignty of Election Vindicated:
  • My opponent continues to preach that man’s choice is the cause of election. Let us let the text of Romans 9:15-16 silence them once and for all: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy... So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."
  • My opponent says election is of "him that willeth" (those who choose to accept). Paul says it is NOT of him that willeth. My opponent's position is an open, direct contradiction of the inspired words of the Apostle Paul.

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THE CLOSING CHARGE

My opponent wants a savior who is a political general and a god who reacts to human choices. They want an Israel defined by military borders and a salvation defined by human willpower.

We stand with the unyielding grit of the historic Reformed faith:

1. True Circumcision is of the Heart: "He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly... but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit" (Rom 2:28-29).
2. The Olive Tree is Spiritual: The natural branches were broken off because of unbelief, and the elect Gentiles stand strictly by faith (Rom 11:20). The tree is sustained by the root (Christ), not by genetic DNA.
3. Salvation is Sovereign: God does not look down the tunnels of time to see who will "accept Him" and then name them the elect. God sovereignly chooses His sheep, legally justifies them at the cross (Rom 5:19), and irresistibly draws them out of their natural, total depravity.

My opponent can look to modern newspapers and secular geopolitical states for their hope. I will look to the eternal, immutable Covenant of Grace ordered in all things and sure. Soli Deo Gloria.

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brightfame52 said:

Rom 9:6

Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

According to this verse, is Paul recognizing Two distinct Israel's ? If yes, what is the difference of the Two ?

If no, then why did He use those words like that ? 1

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So there are 12 sons of Jacob whose name was changed to Israel. So we have 12 tribes of Israel.
From time to time they would marry and give in marriage with other nations, which by "law" would bring them into the family fold.
That doesn't mean that all Israel is pure.
Lot of intermarriages and even foreigners and strangers that joined themselves to Israel. Israel the entire people of the 12 tribes of Jacob.
And Manasseh and Ephraim too.

So one could claim to be an Israelite but not by blood.
In the New Testament the factor isn't blood, it's Faith.

That's how I understand it.
Hugs

For me the "True Israelites" are the ones who have chosen to remain scattered throughout the whole earth to be a blessing to all of the people who live around them. In the near future, God will gather them to Himself and plant them in the fertile field/soil of Israel and He will teach them on the foundational truth of the rock that will soon come down out of heaven to become the largest religion in all of the earth.

NotTheRock said:

It was God's will that Israel again came into existence. Nothing happens in this world without God's approval. Clearly, Jews and Israel remain an important and special part of God's plan.

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They came into existence by nefarious means, and even though God knew they would do that they did it without His blessing.

They have no lineage to ancient Israel. They are converts to judaism from Eastern Europe.

And most importantly they are not part of anything anymore, even if they were true descendants of Israel. Because guess what....It's all about the New Covenant now. There's no difference between us , we all must be born again.