Daniel 9:25 - the messiah the prince

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jeffweeder

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Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal "Future" Weeks Explained?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.


70 weeks of days
From the going forth of the decree 457BC + 69 weeks (483 days)) to the Messiah = 455 BC.?
No cross work.

70 weeks of years
457BC + 69 weeks (483 years) to the Messiah = 26AD , Bingo.
Cross work, see below.

24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem),

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sins,
to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God),
to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet, and
to anoint the Most Holy Place.
 
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Marvelloustime

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Wanna hear something my friend . AND i was reminded OF IT when i read this .
Years upon years ago when i had first went to websites
nearly five years after having been reading ONLY THE BIBLE ,
i noticed something . I was like why on earth do we have so many teachings of these end time prophecies
and why on earth are they so messed up .
THEN came a very small voice to me and it said , YOU GO and behold and bring them
the very words of JESUS and ye shall see THEY TWIST and OMIT some of those words
and that is WHY they cannot see . and sure enough i did bring the basics david
AND SURE ENOUGH they were twisting and omitting things .
YOU SPOT ON RIGHT , THE KEY IS IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WOULD KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS , not twist his words
THEY have no true LOVE FOR JESUS , they are INDOCTRINATED of men and have learned the ways of whaterver
man best pleased their own ears .
@amigo de christo
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claninja

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You're still missing the point of Paul's argument.

I’m not addressing Paul’s main point about the heavenly Jerusalem. I’m addressing the contradiction you’ve made about your own position from post 132.

The earthly Jerusalem represents the covenant community still associated with the Mosaic covenant and therefore characterized by bondage
You cannot bring an Old Covenant Woman representation, into New Covenant times.

Your two statements are contradictory. On the one hand, you argue that the earthly Jerusalem represents the covenant community “STILL” associated with the Mosaic covenant. On the other hand, you insist that an Old Covenant woman cannot be used as a representation in New Covenant times. But Paul does exactly that. He uses Hagar, an Old Covenant woman, to represent “the present Jerusalem” in his own day (Gal. 4:25). If your second statement were true, then your first statement couldn’t be true either, because it depends on the very allegorical correspondence you just rejected. In fact, your objection would undermine Paul’s entire argument in Galatians 4, as Paul brings the old covenant representation into new covenant times.

And your appeal to “metonymy” actually doesn't rescue your argument. If Jerusalem is being used representatively for the people and covenant order associated with it, then you have already conceded my point: Paul isn't discussing Jerusalem merely as a geographical location.

neither I nor @grafted branch ever argued that the earthly, physical city cannot represent the mosaic law and those under bondage. From your argument, it doesn’t appear that recognize the point that I or @grafted branch were trying to clarify from your post 132, about not being able to bring the old covenant woman into new covenant times.

So contrary to that statement you made in post 132, you do actually agree that the the allegory, Hagar, which corresponds to the geographical and physical earthly city of Jerusalem “in Paul’s day” was being used by Paul to represent the mosaic covenant and those still in bondage to it DURING the new covenant times?
 
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claninja

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Therefore, the remainder of the 70th week is recorded in the NT involving the 42 month reign of the beast, obviously.

This would speculative interpretation though, since the NT never actually states the 42 month reign of the beast fulfills Daniel?
 

amigo de christo

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From an internal grammatical/contextual standpoint, how do you know this?
Allow me to remind you of something you probably already know , or maybe dont know .
Have you ever wondered why on earth we have so many end time t heologies
and yet they confused .
Allow me to show you what GOD told me the very day i first began to get on the computer .
Now this was after ab out five years of bible reading daily .
I got a free computer . So i decided hey i wanna go see if i can find me some christains on the computer .
SO i found a site . I went on . And over the next few weeks
i seen t eachings all over the place that not only had i never seen or heard of
BU TTHEY all were off in their theologies and their end time propheices .
SO then it was i suddenly thought HOW on earth is this possible .
THEN a real small voice pricked my conscious with a question and a statment .
And it said , THE reason this is that they cannot graps the truth and teach contradictions
IS because they ALREADY have omitted some of the basic teachings of What JESUS taught .
SO i then began to remind them of many things JESUS had said .
AND YOU KNOW what , that small voice was RIGHT . THEY made reason for why they did not
keep such things . One said this , another said that .
IT became plain as day , THE REASON they cannot SEE , is because THEY were indoctrinated
by whatever man taught whatever satisifed their own lusts desires . THEY came to another jesus friend .
We need to get people back into the bible to learn all things JESUS did teach
and later the apostels would expound upon in their letters to them churches .
SEE exactly what JESUS or jesus we been loving on all along . was it of men that omitted some of his teachings
in favor of their own d esires , OR is it the WORDS of THE ONE TRUE JESUS we been loving all along .
 

grafted branch

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Your two statements are contradictory. On the one hand, you argue that the earthly Jerusalem represents the covenant community “STILL” associated with the Mosaic covenant. On the other hand, you insist that an Old Covenant woman cannot be used as a representation in New Covenant times.
To me it seems that @TribulationSigns thinks if you spiritualize it’s the best way to interpret and if it causes contradiction with other scripture you just keep changing spiritual meanings until it works. But, whatever verses lead him to that conclusion most likely weren’t spiritualized in the first place, which would contradict his own hermeneutics.
 

covenantee

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Grammar doesn’t tell you, it’s left open to interpretation on purpose in my opinion. This is done all over the Bible, at least in the King James Bible it is.
Grammar's rules are objective. Interpretation is subjective. Grammar's rules should be applied first, to maximize the probability of correct interpretation.
 

Truth7t7

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70 weeks of days
From the going forth of the decree 457BC + 69 weeks (483 days)) to the Messiah = 355 BC.?
No cross work.

70 weeks of years
457BC + 69 weeks (483 years) to the Messiah = 26AD , Bingo.
Cross work, see below.

24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem),

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sins,
to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God),
to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet, and
to anoint the Most Holy Place.
If Daniel intended for 490 years he would have written (Four Hundred Ninety Years) he didn't, he wrote (Seventy Weeks) its that simple

(EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION)

"Daniel's AOD Is Future" and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" The Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This "Future" evil figure (The Beast) will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future" (The End)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 

amigo de christo

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what man has made cloudy by much confusion can be made clear again .
OPEN bible , read bible and believe as a c hild what is simply already written .
And the more you read it and stay IN IT , things gonna clear up .
but continue to sit under men and sensual false love and its only gonna get worse .
 
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covenantee

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If Daniel intended for 490 years he would have written (Four Hundred Ninety Years) he didn't, he wrote (Seventy Weeks) its that simple

(EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION)

"Daniel's AOD Is Future" and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" The Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This "Future" evil figure (The Beast) will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future" (The End)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel's weeks are determined.

Yours aren't.

"its that simple". :laughing:
 

TribulationSigns

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I’m not addressing Paul’s main point about the heavenly Jerusalem. I’m addressing the contradiction you’ve made about your own position from post 132.

You think, huh?
Your two statements are contradictory. On the one hand, you argue that the earthly Jerusalem represents the covenant community “STILL” associated with the Mosaic covenant. On the other hand, you insist that an Old Covenant woman cannot be used as a representation in New Covenant times. But Paul does exactly that. He uses Hagar, an Old Covenant woman, to represent “the present Jerusalem” in his own day (Gal. 4:25). If your second statement were true, then your first statement couldn’t be true either, because it depends on the very allegorical correspondence you just rejected. In fact, your objection would undermine Paul’s entire argument in Galatians 4, as Paul brings the old covenant representation into new covenant times.

You have completely misunderstood my argument—and in doing so, you have confused the use of an Old Covenant figure as an illustration with bringing the Old Covenant woman herself into the New Covenant as though she remained part of the covenant community.

Paul’s argument in Galatians 4 does not contradict what I said. It actually proves the distinction I am making.

Hagar is used by Paul figuratively to explain the difference between the two covenants. He explicitly says:

“Which things are an allegory” (Gal. 4:24).

Paul is not saying that Hagar herself has somehow been carried forward into the New Covenant. Nor is he saying that the Mosaic covenant remains the covenant governing God’s people. He is using Hagar and Sarah as representative figures to contrast two covenantal arrangements.

That distinction is absolutely critical.

When Paul says:

“For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is” (Gal. 4:25),

he is identifying the Jerusalem of his present day with the covenant system represented by Hagar and Sinai—not declaring that Hagar has become part of the New Covenant.

And notice what Paul immediately says about that “present Jerusalem”:

“For she is in bondage with her children.”

That is precisely my point.

The earthly Jerusalem represented the covenant community that was still operating under and identified with the Mosaic covenant, and therefore Paul describes it as being in bondage. The fact that Paul could use Hagar as an allegorical representation of that covenant condition does not mean that Hagar herself was transported into New Covenant times as a covenant member.

You are arguing against something I never said.

There is a huge difference between:

1. An Old Covenant figure being used as an illustration in the New Covenant era, and

2. The Old Covenant woman/community being brought forward as though it were part of the New Covenant community.

Paul does #1, not #2.

In fact, Paul makes the contrast unmistakable:

“But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.” (Gal. 4:26)

There are two contrasting covenant identities in Paul's argument:

Present Jerusalem below → Hagar → Sinai → bondage

Jerusalem above → Sarah → promise → freedom


So your claim that my statement is contradictory collapses once you actually follow Paul's covenantal contrast.

I never said an Old Covenant figure cannot be used symbolically in New Covenant times. Of course Paul does that.

My point is that you cannot take an Old Covenant woman representation and simply identify her with the New Covenant community. Paul does the exact opposite: he uses Hagar to represent the bondage associated with the old covenant, while the New Covenant people are identified with Jerusalem above, Sarah, and the promise.

Your argument doesn't refute my position.

It actually demonstrates that you haven't distinguished between an allegorical representation of the Old Covenant order and the New Covenant identity of God's people.

Selah!
 

CTK

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Grammar's rules are objective. Interpretation is subjective. Grammar's rules should be applied first, to maximize the probability of correct interpretation.

Grammar matters because it gives structure to a sentence and helps limit the range of possible meanings. Interpretation involves more judgment, so grammar should be considered first. However, when studying the Bible, we must remember that the Old Testament was not written in English. It was written mainly in Hebrew, and Hebrew does not always follow the same grammatical patterns as English.

That matters because an English translation may arrange a sentence in a way that sounds natural to us, even though the Hebrew sentence is structured differently. Word order may change. Pronouns may be added for clarity. A subject may be contained within a Hebrew verb rather than written separately. The nearest noun is not always the correct antecedent.

For that reason, we should be cautious about claiming that an English grammatical rule settles the meaning of a Hebrew passage.

Daniel 9 gives us a good example.

Daniel 9:25 speaks of “Messiah the Prince.” Then verse 26 says:

“After the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off… and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.”

Some argue that the phrase “the prince who is to come” must refer to the Messiah because “Messiah the Prince” was mentioned in the previous verse. But that conclusion does not follow automatically. Daniel does not simply repeat the title “Messiah the Prince.” He introduces a different expression:

“The people of the prince who is to come.”

The two princes are also connected with very different actions. The Messiah is the One who is cut off. The other prince is identified through his people, who destroy the city and the sanctuary. The word prince is a title, not a personal name. Two different rulers can both be called princes without being the same person.

The language therefore distinguishes between:
  • Messiah the Prince, who comes and is cut off;
  • and the prince who is to come, whose people later destroy Jerusalem and the sanctuary.
This shows why the nearest word or title cannot always determine identity. The same issue appears in Daniel 9:27:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.”

In English, the word “he” may appear to refer naturally to the nearest previously mentioned man—the prince whose people destroy Jerusalem. But the Hebrew text does not contain a separate pronoun in exactly the same way English does. The masculine subject is built into the verb. English translators supply the word he so that the sentence reads naturally. The verb tells us that the subject is a single male, but it does not name him. His identity must be determined from the whole prophecy. When the larger passage is considered, the subject is best understood as the Messiah.

Daniel 9:24 describes the work that must be accomplished: bringing an end to sin, making reconciliation, bringing in everlasting righteousness, and anointing the Most Holy. Verse 25 introduces the Messiah. Verse 26 tells us that He will be cut off. Verse 27 then explains what He accomplishes during the final prophetic week:

“He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.”

Confirming the covenant naturally belongs to the work of the Messiah. The destructive prince is never said to establish or strengthen God’s covenant. He is mentioned only in connection with the people who destroy Jerusalem and the sanctuary. The “he” of Daniel 9:27 therefore returns to the main subject of the prophecy—the Messiah.

The phrase “one week” also has a clear place within the prophecy. Daniel 9:24 begins by declaring that seventy weeks are appointed. The prophecy then identifies seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, giving a total of sixty-nine. The “one week” of verse 27 is therefore the remaining seventieth week. It is not naturally an unrelated seven-year period placed thousands of years later. It is the final week of the seventy-week prophecy.

The Messiah confirms the covenant during this final week. In the middle of that week, He is cut off. Through His death, He causes sacrifice and offering to lose their covenant purpose because the true sacrifice has now been offered. The physical Temple sacrifices may have continued for a time, but before God the sacrificial system had reached its fulfillment in Christ.

Daniel 9 also gives another example of why the nearest noun does not always settle the meaning.

Verse 26 says:

“The people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood.”

The nearest noun before the phrase “its end” is “sanctuary.” Yet the statement is not necessarily referring only to the sanctuary. It refers more broadly to the destruction, the city, the invading power, or the end connected with the coming ruler. The meaning must be drawn from the whole sentence and its context, not simply from the closest noun. Translation creates another important difficulty. The same English word may be used to translate different Hebrew words.

An English reader may see the same word repeated and assume that the same Hebrew word is being used each time. That is not always true. Daniel 8 provides a clear example. In many English translations, the word “vision” appears nine times in the chapter. However, Daniel uses two different Hebrew words. Six of those occurrences use the word chazon. Three use the word mareh. The distinction is hidden when both words are translated simply as vision.

The chazon is the broader prophetic vision. It describes the long movement of events involving kingdoms, powers, and the course of history reaching toward the end. The mareh is more focused and is connected with the vision of the 2,300 evenings and mornings, that occur within the final week of the prophecy.

This distinction can be seen especially clearly in Daniel 8:26, where both Hebrew words appear in the same verse. In English, the word vision appears twice, making it seem as though Daniel is simply repeating himself. In Hebrew, however, he uses two different words. The mareh of the evenings and mornings is identified within the broader chazon vision. This shows how an English translation can sometimes hide an important distinction in the original language.

None of this means that English translations are unreliable. It means they must be used carefully. Every translation involves choices, and some details in the original language cannot be fully represented by one English word. A careful method of interpretation should therefore follow this order:

First, examine the grammar and vocabulary of the original language.​
Second, study the immediate and larger context.​
Third, compare how the writer uses the same words and ideas elsewhere.​
Finally, test the interpretation against the broader message of Scripture.​

Grammar should come before interpretation, but it must be the grammar of the original language. English grammar can help us understand an English translation, but it cannot by itself determine the meaning of a Hebrew passage. Daniel 9 illustrates this clearly. The passage distinguishes Messiah the Prince from the later prince whose people destroy Jerusalem. It then returns to the Messiah as the One who confirms the covenant during the final week of the seventy-weeks prophecy.

Daniel 8 makes the same point in a different way. One English word— “vision”—is used to translate two different Hebrew words: the broader chazon and the more focused mareh associated with the 2,300 evenings and mornings. These examples show why interpretation must begin with the original language rather than relying solely upon the appearance of an English translation. Daniel is clearly the most difficult book in the Bible to understand and interpret and the above issues regarding English translations and grammatical rules further complicates it’s understanding.
 

TribulationSigns

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Daniel 9 gives us a good example.

Daniel 9:25 speaks of “Messiah the Prince.” Then verse 26 says:

“After the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off… and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.”

Some argue that the phrase “the prince who is to come” must refer to the Messiah because “Messiah the Prince” was mentioned in the previous verse.

Yes, it does! You are not reading very well, because you purposely omitted something. Read the full verse:

Dan 9:26
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

NOTE it says, 'but not for Himself.' That is because Messiah was cut off for the sins of 'His People!'

Isaiah 53:8
(8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? for He was CUT OFF out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken.

He was cut off from the living not for Himself, but for the transgressions of His people. This is the people of THIS Prince (Messiah) that shall come, are the people of Israel! Hello?! Unfortunately, like many of you, there are those who try to wrest (twist) or FORCE these scriptures and/or the following passage, to say anti-Christ, Titus, Romans, or different prince, are those who are being spoken about here. NO! But as you can clearly see (He who hath eyes to see) there is no mention of any "evil Prince" here. Neither is it in 'any' translation, nor is it in the original language. This is simply an idea out of the mind of man like yours, not the Word of God. Clearly, the only Prince that is being spoken about here is Messiah, the Prince. Period. And so the only people of the Prince that is being spoken of here, is Israel. It's clear that the whole context of the chapter is about the people of Messiah and their Prince that shall come. There is NOTHING in these passages to lead anyone to believe that there will be third party like Titus or any anti-Christ type Prince was spoken of here. ..unless, you were predisposed to thinking that way by some Sunday School teacher or Church which taught you this error! In the original language it is crystal clear. Some translators, and unfortunately, Premillennial theologians, have let their bias creep into their theology, and even some newer translations add commentary to God's Word.

Selah!
 

CTK

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Yes, it does! You are not reading very well, because you purposely omitted something. Read the full verse:

Dan 9:26
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

NOTE it says, 'but not for Himself.' That is because Messiah was cut off for the sins of 'His People!'

Isaiah 53:8
(8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? for He was CUT OFF out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken.

He was cut off from the living not for Himself, but for the transgressions of His people. This is the people of THIS Prince (Messiah) that shall come, are the people of Israel! Hello?! Unfortunately, like many of you, there are those who try to wrest (twist) or FORCE these scriptures and/or the following passage, to say anti-Christ, Titus, Romans, or different prince, are those who are being spoken about here. NO! But as you can clearly see (He who hath eyes to see) there is no mention of any "evil Prince" here. Neither is it in 'any' translation, nor is it in the original language. This is simply an idea out of the mind of man like yours, not the Word of God. Clearly, the only Prince that is being spoken about here is Messiah, the Prince. Period. And so the only people of the Prince that is being spoken of here, is Israel. It's clear that the whole context of the chapter is about the people of Messiah and their Prince that shall come. There is NOTHING in these passages to lead anyone to believe that there will be third party like Titus or any anti-Christ type Prince was spoken of here. ..unless, you were predisposed to thinking that way by some Sunday School teacher or Church which taught you this error! In the original language it is crystal clear. Some translators, and unfortunately, Premillennial theologians, have let their bias creep into their theology, and even some newer translations add commentary to God's Word.

Selah!

I would ask that you go back and read post # 175 and #176. And should you like to do some further research on you own, I would recommend you take these four verses in 24 -27 and prepare your own chiasitic structure. You will definitely find it can only be interpreted one way.
 
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