Daniel 9:25 - the messiah the prince

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
16,879
9,313
113
51
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Ok, how have you applied this to chapter 9?
Exactly as it is written

26“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; = Crucifixion

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. = 70AD / 40 years AFTER the Crucifixion
The end of it shall be with a flood,

And till the end of the war desolations are determined = Matthew 24:4-8

27Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; = Coming of the Antichrist = Matt24:15-25 & 2 Thess ch2 & 1 John ch2
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, = Revelation
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.
 

CTK

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2024
1,624
357
83
73
Albuquerque
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We just see things differently, not a problem.
I am not entirely sure what you mean by “seeing things differently,” but let me approach the issue this way.

In Daniel 9, English translations use the word “prince” four times. A reader may naturally assume that all four occurrences represent the same Hebrew word and carry the same meaning. They do not.

Daniel 9:6 and 9:8 refer to Israel’s “princes” using the Hebrew word śar. Daniel 9:25 and 9:26 use a different word, nagiyd, for “Messiah the Prince” and “the prince who is to come.” That distinction matters. When different Hebrew words are translated by the same English word, important differences can easily disappear. This becomes especially problematic when someone attempts to identify these princes solely by applying an English rule about the nearest antecedent.

Some argue that the “prince who is to come” in verse 26 must refer back to “Messiah the Prince” in verse 25 simply because Messiah is the nearest preceding person called a prince. But that conclusion cannot be established merely by appealing to English grammar.

The Hebrew Scriptures were not written according to modern English grammatical conventions, nor was the Greek New Testament. English translations must naturally follow English sentence structure, but the interpretation must ultimately be governed by the original language, the immediate context, and the sequence of events described in the prophecy. Therefore, we should not assume that every English occurrence of “prince” means exactly the same thing, nor should we identify the prince of verse 26 simply by locating the nearest English antecedent. The Hebrew words and the context must first be examined.
 

IndianaRob

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2023
2,249
929
113
55
Louisville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no other verse in the OT where the individual term “shabu” can be found.

However, in verse 24 Gabriel deliberately writes:

שָׁבֻעִים שִׁבְעִים
shābuʿim shivʿim
“seventy sevens/weeks”
The plural "shabuim" is just the normal plural of "shabua," the same way "weeks" is the plural of "week." Neither the singular nor the plural form is used to mean "years" anywhere else in the Old Testament.
 

IndianaRob

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2023
2,249
929
113
55
Louisville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Did you SEE this?

Moses prophesied of the Prince of Peace under a different Name that has the same meaning.

Moses prophecy does not declare a 'future' naming BUT that His Name of Peace is from Eternity
We’re talking about the title Prince.
 

IndianaRob

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2023
2,249
929
113
55
Louisville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am not entirely sure what you mean by “seeing things differently,” but let me approach the issue this way.

In Daniel 9, English translations use the word “prince” four times. A reader may naturally assume that all four occurrences represent the same Hebrew word and carry the same meaning. They do not.

Daniel 9:6 and 9:8 refer to Israel’s “princes” using the Hebrew word śar. Daniel 9:25 and 9:26 use a different word, nagiyd, for “Messiah the Prince” and “the prince who is to come.” That distinction matters. When different Hebrew words are translated by the same English word, important differences can easily disappear. This becomes especially problematic when someone attempts to identify these princes solely by applying an English rule about the nearest antecedent.

Some argue that the “prince who is to come” in verse 26 must refer back to “Messiah the Prince” in verse 25 simply because Messiah is the nearest preceding person called a prince. But that conclusion cannot be established merely by appealing to English grammar.

The Hebrew Scriptures were not written according to modern English grammatical conventions, nor was the Greek New Testament. English translations must naturally follow English sentence structure, but the interpretation must ultimately be governed by the original language, the immediate context, and the sequence of events described in the prophecy. Therefore, we should not assume that every English occurrence of “prince” means exactly the same thing, nor should we identify the prince of verse 26 simply by locating the nearest English antecedent. The Hebrew words and the context must first be examined.
I don’t argue that the “prince who is to come” in verse 26 must refer back to “Messiah the Prince” in verse 25.

The Prince to come is not the Messiah.
 

CTK

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2024
1,624
357
83
73
Albuquerque
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Exactly as it is written

26“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; = Crucifixion
Yes.

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. = 70AD / 40 years AFTER the Crucifixion
The end of it shall be with a flood,
Who is this prince and why?

And till the end of the war desolations are determined = Matthew 24:4-8
skip for now...

27Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; = Coming of the Antichrist = Matt24:15-25 & 2 Thess ch2 & 1 John ch2
Who confirms the covenant and why?

You show the words "with many for one week." Have you studied this phrase as it is written in Hebrew or are you accepting that this "covenant" is "FOR" A WEEK?

What do you think the term "one week" means and what week does it refer to and why?


But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

What do you think the term "middle of the week" means?

Who shall bring an end to sacrifice and offerings and why?

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, = Revelation
What does this phrase mean? What does the term "abominations" refer to and why?

What does the term "desolate" mean and who does it apply to?

Even until the consummation, which is determined,
What does the term "consummation" refer to and why?

Who determines when the "consummation" ends?

Is poured out on the desolate.
What does this mean?

What is being "poured out"/

Who is this being "poured out on"?

Who are the "desolate"?
 

CTK

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2024
1,624
357
83
73
Albuquerque
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don’t argue that the “prince who is to come” in verse 26 must refer back to “Messiah the Prince” in verse 25.

The Prince to come is not the Messiah.
If I have confused you please let me know... Daniel is THE MOST DIFFICULT BOOK IN THE SCRIPTURES TO UNDERSTAND.... it is easily 100 times more difficult than Revelation.
 

IndianaRob

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2023
2,249
929
113
55
Louisville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If I have confused you please let me know... Daniel is THE MOST DIFFICULT BOOK IN THE SCRIPTURES TO UNDERSTAND.... it is easily 100 times more difficult than Revelation.
I enjoy talking about it. I follow your logic I just don’t see it the way you see it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CTK

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
16,879
9,313
113
51
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Yes.


Who is this prince and why?


skip for now...


Who confirms the covenant and why?

You show the words "with many for one week." Have you studied this phrase as it is written in Hebrew or are you accepting that this "covenant" is "FOR" A WEEK?

What do you think the term "one week" means and what week does it refer to and why?




What do you think the term "middle of the week" means?

Who shall bring an end to sacrifice and offerings and why?


What does this phrase mean? What does the term "abominations" refer to and why?

What does the term "desolate" mean and who does it apply to?


What does the term "consummation" refer to and why?

Who determines when the "consummation" ends?


What does this mean?

What is being "poured out"/

Who is this being "poured out on"?

Who are the "desolate"?
All your questions have been answered in the Scriptures via Gospel, Apostles writings and Revelation = just as I referenced for you.

Keep this in your heart and mind = 'Antichrist' mimicks the LORD = thus he makes a treaty for 7 years and breaks it mid-week
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
16,879
9,313
113
51
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Yes.


Who is this prince and why?


skip for now...


Who confirms the covenant and why?

You show the words "with many for one week." Have you studied this phrase as it is written in Hebrew or are you accepting that this "covenant" is "FOR" A WEEK?

What do you think the term "one week" means and what week does it refer to and why?




What do you think the term "middle of the week" means?

Who shall bring an end to sacrifice and offerings and why?


What does this phrase mean? What does the term "abominations" refer to and why?

What does the term "desolate" mean and who does it apply to?


What does the term "consummation" refer to and why?

Who determines when the "consummation" ends?


What does this mean?

What is being "poured out"/

Who is this being "poured out on"?

Who are the "desolate"?
If you read Revelation, with prayer, you can see "poured out" on the "desolate"
 

CTK

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2024
1,624
357
83
73
Albuquerque
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All your questions have been answered in the Scriptures via Gospel, Apostles writings and Revelation = just as I referenced for you.

Keep this in your heart and mind = 'Antichrist' mimicks the LORD = thus he makes a treaty for 7 years and breaks it mid-week
Well, thanks for all the information ...
 

CTK

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2024
1,624
357
83
73
Albuquerque
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All your questions have been answered in the Scriptures via Gospel, Apostles writings and Revelation = just as I referenced for you.

Keep this in your heart and mind = 'Antichrist' mimicks the LORD = thus he makes a treaty for 7 years and breaks it mid-week
Great ... best wishes.