If you're not prepared to murder somebody due to the golden rule, how can you be prepared to torture somebody for eternity?
Can someone who's found Jesus please ask him for me.
Can someone who's found Jesus please ask him for me.
Which is worse, murder or eternal torture?
- Thread starter Mancunian
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
Both are a choice. That's the point and message. That is what all of Christianity comes down to.
We are all destined for an eternal fate...and we get to choose. That's it.
Which actually means your purposed question, is better stated as:
Which is worse, murder or suicide?
I was talking about Jesus specifically, if Jesus was/is not prepared to murder anybody to uphold the golden rule, why would he be prepared to torture somebody for eternity?
What does eternal torture actually accomplish anyway? Furthermore, what about unsaved children? I think the Catholic church had to be shamed into admitting that they don't burn in hell forever.
It makes you wonder, if aspects of Christianity can be rescinded or changed to better fit the taste of modern sensibilities, what's the point of Christianity at all? You might as well jist make your own religion.
It makes you wonder, if aspects of Christianity can be rescinded or changed to better fit the taste of modern sensibilities, what's the point of Christianity at all? You might as well jist make your own religion.
Behold
Well-Known Member
You are confused @Mancunian
Let me help you, if you can be helped.
1.) Now, there is HEAVEN, and there is HELL.
Both existed before ADAM was Created.
Both Heaven and Hell are eternal destinations.
2.) Hell, was created for the Devil, and His angels.
3.) Now, why does a sinner, go to Hell?
Why?
Its because they chose to go.
They CHOSE to go to Hell.
4.) How?
They CHOSE to never trust in JESUS so that God could bring them to Heaven, after they die.
They CHOSE to die as a CHRIST REJECTOR, and in ETERNITY there is only one place for them to GO, as they can't Go to Heaven.
See that CHOICE they made?
So, never blame God for YOUR Choice to refuse to Trust in Christ, which sends you to HELL like a bullet = right after you die.
Therefore, If you end up in Hell, its only because you CHOSE to die as a Christ Rejector, and that means you chose to NOT go to Heaven after you die, and so, you CHOSE the only other eternal option. = HELL
That is not God's fault......that is YOUR FAULT = YOUR CHOICE< and God's part in it, is to HONOR YOUR CHOICE After you DIE... and you can believe He will.
So, choose carefully where you will end up in Eternity before you die, and God will honor your CHOICE for eternity after you die.
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So in other words I have NO choice.
It's basically blackmail?
What a lovely thing to teach to children....
And of course Jesus comes out of it smelling of roses because it was my choice. Awful.
Bob
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the post.
Your question has been posed in this forum before, notably by @Wranger. The straightforward answer per the Bible is that enteral fire awaits the non-believer. While you (and others) find it disturbing, it surely cannot be your grounds for rejecting Christianity.
Even Your fellow-traveler Richard Dawkins recently had some good things to say about Christianity, now that a much harsher religion is in the process of marginalizing your once-vibrant society, and wrecking havoc with the traditional social order.
Search far & wide among the belief systems of this planet and you will find that Christianity (despite what some view as internal contradictions) has brought inner peace and humane communities to the most people.
Blessings.
Your question has been posed in this forum before, notably by @Wranger. The straightforward answer per the Bible is that enteral fire awaits the non-believer. While you (and others) find it disturbing, it surely cannot be your grounds for rejecting Christianity.
Even Your fellow-traveler Richard Dawkins recently had some good things to say about Christianity, now that a much harsher religion is in the process of marginalizing your once-vibrant society, and wrecking havoc with the traditional social order.
Search far & wide among the belief systems of this planet and you will find that Christianity (despite what some view as internal contradictions) has brought inner peace and humane communities to the most people.
Blessings.
Behold
Well-Known Member
As long as you are breathing, you have the choice to trust in Jesus so that God can forgive you all your sins, and make you a part of His eternal family of Christians.
All that is stopping you from being forgiven, is you.
See, you can find the time to come to a Forum and try to blame God , but you can't find the time to go to God and trust in Christ and let God forgive you and love you, and save you.
So, why is that?
Why do you have time to come HERE and try to blame God, when in fact you can choose to instead trust in Christ right now, and settle where you are going to end up, after you die.
Now, why do you think you are willing to come and try to play a useless blame game with God, on a Christian Forum, when you could simply open your heart to God's Love and trust in Christ as your Savior.
See, you are chooing what you are doing........... God is not choosing it for you @Mancunian .
You can be honest and admit that the choice to go to heaven....is up to you., because its totally up to you, just like it was up to me.
Just like it was up to everyone who claims the Name of Jesus, and has become a BELIEVER.
WE CHOSE HEAVEN, and so can you @Mancunian
Will you?
Listen, God sending His Son to die for YOU on The Cross is LOVE..........Its God showing you how much He loves you.
You get to CHOOSE this..........as God is not going to make you do it.
God Loves you, and wants you to be a part of His Eternal Family, and you would rather argue your nonsense on a Forum.
So, do you see that the issue, the problem is YOU?
Listen,
God is right there waiting for you.......all your life......so, you have all your life to come to God trusting in Christ.
But the problem is..........you dont know when you are going to DIE.
Maybe you'll live 10 more years, and in that case, you have 10 more years to figure out if you want to go to Hell or to Heaven.
But, if you dont have 10 more years.........if you only have 10 more mins to live, and you spent it trying to be annoying to Chrisitans on a Christitan forum, then you sent yourself to Hell, 10 minutes from now.
You think this is a Joke? a Myth?
Do you know what God's Son went through to pay for your sin so that God can have you forever as His?
See that Cross ?????????.........see those Nails? See all that blood from that whipping?
Did you ever see Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ"? ????????
What actually happened to Jesus, is WORSE.
= Jesus did that for you. @Mancunian .
Just for you, as if you are the only one down here........Jesus was slaughtered for your sins.
The Bible says that Jesus was so wounded in his face, that He was not recognizable, and that was BEFORE He was nailed to The Cross for YOUR SIN and mine.
Are you a child?
Is that why you wrote an accusing Thread asking a confused person's question about Hell?
So, you want to attack Jesus now?
Listen,... here is the bottom line........ If you dont want to go to Hell, then turn to Christ who died for you, because He loves you.
Open your heart and invite Jesus to save you, to forgive you, and It will happen for you.
God never turns anyone away who will come to Christ, believing they need to be forgiven all their sin......and you do need to be forgiven @Mancunian .
@Mancunian .... My hopeful advice, is for you to realize that everyone dies, but not everyone goes to Hell. Yet everyone who went there chose it.
Will you continue to choose it?
You're choosing it so far, and thats not very bright.
And now you know how to avoid it and you can never pretend before God that you were not told....... and you get to make that Eternal Choice.
So,. Make it before you die if you want to go to Heaven, or just carry on your hatred of Christ, and Hell will continue to be your eternal destination.
You get to choose and may God help you to believe very very soon. @Mancunian
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JimKnox
Active Member
I have a question for you.
If you wanted to get to know your neighbor, doesn't it make sense that you would go to him an introduce yourself to him? And then have a conversation with him?
You are never going to get your questions answered ABOUT Him until YOU go talk to Him.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Jesus is not making that choice. Everyone decides for themselves.
But He was prepared and did die for everyone who chooses life. And all one has to do is ask, believing that He has done that.
You are absolutely right.
I am wasting my precious time here so this will be my last post
You're absolutely correct I am wasting precious time here so this will be my last post.
I'm sorry if anything that I wrote came across as offensive, that wasn't my intention.
Eternal torture is pure evil; it's not what a loving person would do. 1 John 4:8-10 (WEB) says:
(8) He who doesn’t love doesn’t know God, for God is love.
(9) By this God’s love was revealed in us, that God has sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
(10) In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
and verse 16:(16) We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
The idea that God will torture people for all eternity is a misunderstanding, a deception of Satan, and a gross attack on the loving, merciful character of God. Exodus 34:6 WEB:
(6) Yahweh passed by before him, and proclaimed, “Yahweh! Yahweh, a merciful and gracious God, slow to anger, and abundant in loving kindness and truth,
(7) keeping loving kindness for thousands, forgiving iniquity and disobedience and sin; and who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the children’s children, on the third and on the fourth generation.”
Jesus said, Luke 6:35-36 WEB:
(35) But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing back; and your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil.
(36) “Therefore be merciful, even as your Father is also merciful.
So what does the Bible actually say? Romans 6:20-23 WEB:
(20) For when you were servants of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
(21) What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
(22) But now, being made free from sin, and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification, and the result of eternal life.
(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
What we earn as a result of sin is not eternal torture, it's death - eternal death. The free gift (we can't earn it) from God is eternal life, through belief and faith in God's Son, Jesus. As Jesus said, Matthew 25:46 WEB:
(46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The punishment is death, so eternal punishment is eternal death, as opposed to eternal life. Eternal torture is not death, it is eternal life - an extremely unpleasant eternal life! Similarly Jesus said, John 3:14-16 WEB:
(14) As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
(15) that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
These are the two outcomes:
- to perish, die, be destroyed with no opportunity for a future restoration to life.
- to live forever
Molech: The Rabbis describe this idol as made of brass sitting upon a throne of the same metal, in the form of a man, with the head of a calf, adorned with a royal crown, and his arms extended as if to embrace any one. When they offered any children to him, they heated the statue by a great fire kindled within, and the victim was put into his arms, and thus consumed. Others relate, that the idol, which was hollow, was divided into seven compartments within; in one of which they put flour, in the second turtles, in the third a ewe, in the fourth a ram, in the fifth a calf, in the sixth an ox, and the seventh a child; which were all burnt together by heating the statue inside. The account which Diodorus (l. xx.) gives of the statue of Saturn, to which the Carthaginians, descendants of the Canaanites, sacrificed their children, is very similar. For they had a brazen stature of Saturn, stretching out his hands towards the ground, in such a manner that the children placed within them tumbled down into a pit full of fire.
Leviticus 20:2-3 WEB
(2) “Moreover, you shall tell the children of Israel, ‘Anyone of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who live as foreigners in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech; he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.
(3) I also will set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people because he has given of his offspring to Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.
Jeremiah 32:35 WEB
(35) They built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through fire to Molech; which I didn’t command them. It didn’t even come into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”
So God condemned people who would sacrifice their children by burning. Therefore it is inconceivable that he would condemn that while all along planning on torturing millions of people in fire, not just for a few minutes until they died, but miraculously keeping them alive forever, to eternally be in pain. It makes no sense! God said that such thoughts 'never came into His mind'.
The confusion comes partly from taking very symbolic verses as if they were literal. But what do the verses say about the 'lake of fire'? Revelation 20:14-15 WEB:
(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
(15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
The 'lake of fire' is symbolic of destruction. Note that it says that death will be destroyed (confirmed by Revelation 21:4 - "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more”). Also Hades, i.e. "hell", where the dead go, will also be destroyed.
It talks of two resurrections of the dead to life. The first is for Christians, and afterwards all non-Christians will be resurrected to life, after Jesus returns to establish God's Kingdom on the earth. Christians, who are resurrected first, are resurrected with an immortal spirit body, and will join Jesus and God in heaven. Everyone else will be resurrected as humans again, and live on the earth, and they will be gradually restored to human perfection during a 1,000 year period, and at the end of that 1,000 years they will be judged to determine whether or not they will be granted eternal life, or instead will die again. Revelation 20:6 WEB:
(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.
John 3:36 WEB
(36) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
1 John 3:15 WEB
(15) Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him
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Hi Mancunian. I just saw what you said in your welcome center topic. And you admitted you are scared and seeking. And that a dying Christian man made a big impression on you. So I hope you will come back to the forum. Jesus Christ does love you and won't turn anyone away. Faith in Jesus is simple, I hope you will find that out.
I answered you in your welcome center thread. I hope you will see it.
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