Is original sin scriptural?

Hepzibah · Saturday at 3:01 AM

I have moved the discussion on original sin as it is mixed up with the discussion on grace.

@bdavidc wrote:

"I have now read the article, and your position is worse than I initially understood."

Thank you for doing that but I am confused as there were two articles referenced:

Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church of Central Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts

The Website of St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church

www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org

https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/59563/9783110620580.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

"First, the article is not Scripture, and I have no obligation to accept its theology. Where the author goes beyond Scripture and speaks as though every human being literally participated in Adam's personal act of sin, I reject that. Romans 5 does not teach that we were preexistent souls standing beside Adam committing his transgression. In fact, Romans 5:14 speaks of people who “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.”

I agree with this.

"Scripture gives us what we need without the speculation. “By the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation,” and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:18-19). Adam sinned. His fall brought sin, death, and condemnation into the human race.

But the article does not support what you are claiming either. You accused the author of missing Gregory of Nazianzus, yet the article actually discusses Gregory directly and cites him as speaking corporately of mankind sharing in Adam's fall, deception, death, and restoration through Christ."

I said that Gregory of Nazianzus had been misunderstood when he said:

"For we believe that since we had fallen due to sin from the beginning and been led away by pleasure as far as idolatry and lawless bloodshed, we needed to be called back again and restored to our *original state*, through the heartfelt compassion of God our Father, who could not bear that such a work of his own hands as the human being should be lost. 366 Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 45, 12; PG 36, 637-640; transl. N. Verna Harrison, 171."

I said: How can this be if we are born into a state of sinfulness? It rather says that something happened to us - we fell away from the original state (innocence) being tempted, and a work of God was required to call us Back and Restore us. The sin from the beginning, is of course Adam's sin with which we share once we give in to temptation which is inevitable due to the power of Satan. And what is our *original state*?

"Your claim that man is born in the same innocent state as Adam and only falls when he personally chooses sin is false teaching."

Paul says plainly, “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19). He does not say every person is born as another innocent Adam and later recreates the Fall for himself.

Ephesians 2:3 says we are “by nature the children of wrath.” Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

If you wish to join in with the discussion between @ProDeo and myself, please begin by stating your full case ie scriptural support for original sin which I claim is weak.

I agree with these verses:

"by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19)

Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Please show where this does not mean it was his mother who was in sin. It is said that she conceived David in adultery.

newton3005 · Saturday at 9:54 AM

>Is original sin scriptural?

***Yes.

bdavidc · Saturday at 5:47 PM

Hepzibah said:
I have moved the discussion on original sin as it is mixed up with the discussion on grace.

@bdavidc wrote:

"I have now read the article, and your position is worse than I initially understood."

Thank you for doing that but I am confused as there were two articles referenced:

Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church of Central Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts

The Website of St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church

www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org

https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/59563/9783110620580.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

"First, the article is not Scripture, and I have no obligation to accept its theology. Where the author goes beyond Scripture and speaks as though every human being literally participated in Adam's personal act of sin, I reject that. Romans 5 does not teach that we were preexistent souls standing beside Adam committing his transgression. In fact, Romans 5:14 speaks of people who “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.”

I agree with this.

"Scripture gives us what we need without the speculation. “By the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation,” and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:18-19). Adam sinned. His fall brought sin, death, and condemnation into the human race.

But the article does not support what you are claiming either. You accused the author of missing Gregory of Nazianzus, yet the article actually discusses Gregory directly and cites him as speaking corporately of mankind sharing in Adam's fall, deception, death, and restoration through Christ."

I said that Gregory of Nazianzus had been misunderstood when he said:

"For we believe that since we had fallen due to sin from the beginning and been led away by pleasure as far as idolatry and lawless bloodshed, we needed to be called back again and restored to our *original state*, through the heartfelt compassion of God our Father, who could not bear that such a work of his own hands as the human being should be lost. 366 Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 45, 12; PG 36, 637-640; transl. N. Verna Harrison, 171."

I said: How can this be if we are born into a state of sinfulness? It rather says that something happened to us - we fell away from the original state (innocence) being tempted, and a work of God was required to call us Back and Restore us. The sin from the beginning, is of course Adam's sin with which we share once we give in to temptation which is inevitable due to the power of Satan. And what is our *original state*?

"Your claim that man is born in the same innocent state as Adam and only falls when he personally chooses sin is false teaching."

Paul says plainly, “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19). He does not say every person is born as another innocent Adam and later recreates the Fall for himself.

Ephesians 2:3 says we are “by nature the children of wrath.” Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

If you wish to join in with the discussion between @ProDeo and myself, please begin by stating your full case ie scriptural support for original sin which I claim is weak.

I agree with these verses:

"by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19)

Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Please show where this does not mean it was his mother who was in sin. It is said that she conceived David in adultery.

Scripture never says David was conceived in adultery. If you claim that, please provide the verse. We cannot invent an affair involving David’s mother just to avoid what Psalm 51:5 plainly says.

David wrote, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” The subject of this confession is David. The entire Psalm concerns his sin, guilt, and need for cleansing:

“For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me” (Psalm 51:3).

“Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin” (Psalm 51:2).

David suddenly accusing his mother of adultery would not fit the context at all. Psalm 51:5 explains how deeply his own sinful condition reaches. It was present from conception, not something he acquired only after committing his first personal sin.

Romans 5 says the same thing. “By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (verse 12), and “by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners” (verse 19). Paul does not say Adam merely provided a bad example that everyone later chooses to imitate. He says Adam’s disobedience made many sinners, brought judgment upon all men, and introduced death into the human race.

Ephesians 2:3 also says we “were by nature the children of wrath.” It does not say we were born innocent and became children of wrath only after Satan successfully tempted us.

The phrase “original sin” is not found in Scripture, so I am not asking anyone to defend a man-made label. But the biblical truth is clear: mankind is not born in Adam’s original innocence. We are born into a fallen race with a sinful nature, and we personally confirm that nature by sinning. That is why we need more than restoration to supposed childhood innocence. We need to be born again through faith in Jesus Christ.

Lambano · Saturday at 9:30 PM

I found this statement from the article to be interesting.

The Eastern Church, unlike its Western counterpart, never speaks of guilt being passed from Adam and Eve to their progeny, as did Augustine. Instead, it is posited that each person bears the guilt of his or her own sin. The question becomes, "What then is the inheritance of humanity from Adam and Eve if it is not guilt?" The Orthodox Fathers answer as one: death.

Hepzibah said:
Romans 5 does not teach that we were preexistent souls standing beside Adam committing his transgression. In fact, Romans 5:14 speaks of people who “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.”

I see a bunch of stuff happening here. I'm sure Paul was aware of Ezekiel 18, summarized by v18:20 - The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. I think that the two verses immediately following the verse in question (Romans 5:12) definitely says GUILT is not reckoned to someone unless they have Torah and know better.

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

This is consistent with what Paul says about Torah in chapter 7, in Roman 3:20 (Through the Law comes knowledge of sin) and Romans 2:12 -All who sin apart from the Law will also perish apart from the Law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the Law.

So, I think the Eastern Orthodox understanding of Ancestral Sin is closer to what Paul says: We inherited death, we inherited the disease of Sin, but not the guilt of Adam's sin.

One caveat: "Guilt" is a righteousness term. Holiness is a separate issue. Did we inherit the STAIN, the "uncleanness" of "Original Sin" from Adam? I would have to say we did.

Lambano · Saturday at 9:44 PM

Hepzibah said:
Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Please show where this does not mean it was his mother who was in sin. It is said that she conceived David in adultery.

Psalms are poetry, and I see that more as a poetic way of saying that David realized he was sinful from the moment he was conceived. It has nothing to do with his mother.

markalan · Sunday at 3:19 AM

Lambano said:
I found this statement from the article to be interesting.

The Eastern Church, unlike its Western counterpart, never speaks of guilt being passed from Adam and Eve to their progeny, as did Augustine. Instead, it is posited that each person bears the guilt of his or her own sin. The question becomes, "What then is the inheritance of humanity from Adam and Eve if it is not guilt?" The Orthodox Fathers answer as one: death.

I see a bunch of stuff happening here. I'm sure Paul was aware of Ezekiel 18, summarized by v18:20 - The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. I think that the two verses immediately following the verse in question (Romans 5:12) definitely says GUILT is not reckoned to someone unless they have Torah and know better.

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

This is consistent with what Paul says about Torah in chapter 7, in Roman 3:20 (Through the Law comes knowledge of sin) and Romans 2:12 -All who sin apart from the Law will also perish apart from the Law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the Law.

So, I think the Eastern Orthodox understanding of Ancestral Sin is closer to what Paul says: We inherited death, we inherited the disease of Sin, but not the guilt of Adam's sin.

One caveat: "Guilt" is a righteousness term. Holiness is a separate issue. Did we inherit the STAIN, the "uncleanness" of "Original Sin" from Adam? I would have to say we did.

I believe you are right to point out the difference between sin and accountability.
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Hepzibah · Sunday at 8:02 AM

bdavidc said:
Scripture never says David was conceived in adultery. If you claim that, please provide the verse. We cannot invent an affair involving David’s mother just to avoid what Psalm 51:5 plainly says.

It is very well known about in Jewish tradition.

Did David's Mother Commit Adultery?

The Bible doesn't say much about David or his mother, but Jewish tradition says that many believed that David's mother committed adultery. See Psalm 69.

redeeminggod.com

(To research this further, see Yalkut Makiri Tehillim 118,28; Sefer HaTodaah, Sivan and Shavuot; Pinter, Don’t Give Up; Weisberg, Tending the Garden, 187f; Book 2 of Our Jewish Heritage. See also Nitzevet – the Mother of David)

bdavidc said:
David wrote, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” The subject of this confession is David. The entire Psalm concerns his sin, guilt, and need for cleansing:

“For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me” (Psalm 51:3).

“Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin” (Psalm 51:2).

David suddenly accusing his mother of adultery would not fit the context at all. Psalm 51:5 explains how deeply his own sinful condition reaches. It was present from conception, not something he acquired only after committing his first personal sin.

It did indeed fit the context, as he was contemplating and confessing his own adultery with Bathsheba and partaking in poetic hyperbole. The psalms are full of exaggerations. The psalmist writes that "he drowns his bed with a single tear (Ps. 6:6) and Paul writes he is the chief of sinners 1Tim 1:15.

A chid will use such hyperbole and say regarding his maths test "I never get any problems right!"

Born in sin could very easily mean born into a sinful world and is often used in this way in scripture.

David's family rejected him as they thought he was a bastard. The word stranger in Ps 69:8 has the same Hebrew root as mazar meaning bastard. Tradition has it that David was forced into being a boy shepherd in the fields alone so he could hopefully be killed by a wild beast.

bdavidc said:
Romans 5 says the same thing. “By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (verse 12), and “by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners” (verse 19). Paul does not say Adam merely provided a bad example that everyone later chooses to imitate. He says Adam’s disobedience made many sinners, brought judgment upon all men, and introduced death into the human race.

Ephesians 2:3 also says we “were by nature the children of wrath.” It does not say we were born innocent and became children of wrath only after Satan successfully tempted us.

The phrase “original sin” is not found in Scripture, so I am not asking anyone to defend a man-made label. But the biblical truth is clear: mankind is not born in Adam’s original innocence. We are born into a fallen race with a sinful nature, and we personally confirm that nature by sinning. That is why we need more than restoration to supposed childhood innocence. We need to be born again through faith in Jesus Christ.

"Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. But each one shall die for his own sin." 1Kings 14:5-6

"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. e The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Ez 18:20

"So then each of us will give an account of himself to God." Romans 14:12

"For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality." Col:3:25

Romans 5:12 says that by Adam’s disobedience, sin entered into the world. But this verse does not say that the sin nature is transmitted by heredity. Instead, when sin entered the world, the result was death which was passed upon all men, I Corinthians 15:21-22, James 1:14-15.

When sin entered into the world, the world became the environment for sin to flourish. The world, flesh, and the devil influence, tempt and control every person, Ephesians 2:1-3, who has to choose whether to yield to sin or not. Only the Lord Jesus did not yield to temptation. But otherwise, the verdict is that all capable of sinning are guilty of having sinned.

A person becomes a sinner when he commits a sin. To sin is to go astray, transgress, trespass, err, or to miss the mark. The point is that sin is not a state of being but an action. It is not said that everyone is a sinner, but that all have sinned, Romans 3:23, I Kings 8:46. But to commit a sin, one must be at the age to discern right from wrong, Deuteronomy 1:39, Isaiah 7:15-16, Jonah 4:11.

When a man (child) sins, they have entered Satan's kingdom, taking on his nature, and need to be rescued out of it which Jesus did when he came to save sinners, by faith. The cost was the body of Christ which He thankfully gave.

The whole of the early church was built around the fact that the church was a hospital not a courtroom which it has become today.

Grailhunter · Sunday at 8:35 AM

Hepzibah said:
I have moved the discussion on original sin as it is mixed up with the discussion on grace.

@bdavidc wrote:

"I have now read the article, and your position is worse than I initially understood."

Thank you for doing that but I am confused as there were two articles referenced:

Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church of Central Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts

The Website of St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church

www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org

https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/59563/9783110620580.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

"First, the article is not Scripture, and I have no obligation to accept its theology. Where the author goes beyond Scripture and speaks as though every human being literally participated in Adam's personal act of sin, I reject that. Romans 5 does not teach that we were preexistent souls standing beside Adam committing his transgression. In fact, Romans 5:14 speaks of people who “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.”

I agree with this.

"Scripture gives us what we need without the speculation. “By the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation,” and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:18-19). Adam sinned. His fall brought sin, death, and condemnation into the human race.

But the article does not support what you are claiming either. You accused the author of missing Gregory of Nazianzus, yet the article actually discusses Gregory directly and cites him as speaking corporately of mankind sharing in Adam's fall, deception, death, and restoration through Christ."

I said that Gregory of Nazianzus had been misunderstood when he said:

"For we believe that since we had fallen due to sin from the beginning and been led away by pleasure as far as idolatry and lawless bloodshed, we needed to be called back again and restored to our *original state*, through the heartfelt compassion of God our Father, who could not bear that such a work of his own hands as the human being should be lost. 366 Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 45, 12; PG 36, 637-640; transl. N. Verna Harrison, 171."

I said: How can this be if we are born into a state of sinfulness? It rather says that something happened to us - we fell away from the original state (innocence) being tempted, and a work of God was required to call us Back and Restore us. The sin from the beginning, is of course Adam's sin with which we share once we give in to temptation which is inevitable due to the power of Satan. And what is our *original state*?

"Your claim that man is born in the same innocent state as Adam and only falls when he personally chooses sin is false teaching."

Paul says plainly, “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19). He does not say every person is born as another innocent Adam and later recreates the Fall for himself.

Ephesians 2:3 says we are “by nature the children of wrath.” Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

If you wish to join in with the discussion between @ProDeo and myself, please begin by stating your full case ie scriptural support for original sin which I claim is weak.

I agree with these verses:

"by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19)

Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Please show where this does not mean it was his mother who was in sin. It is said that she conceived David in adultery.

Is the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin scriptural? NO.
It is one of few very popular false beliefs.
It opens up several topics. I will only touch on a few here.
1. This belief came from a man that was sexually out of his own control. That would be Augustine and this is by his own admission. He grew to hate his own sexual desires. And he figured it all came from Satan and women were his temptresses and if he could not control them, no one could. He believed sex and procreation transferred Adam and Eve sin to the unborn baby. He believed that at babies that died went to Hell.
2. This belief is one of foundational beliefs of Calvinism, one many false denominations. You will very seldom see a church with a sign that indicates that it is Calvinist. They usually infiltrate Churches and work like a cult to slowly talk them into Calvinism.
3. Since we have no control of Original Sin John Calvin came up with the Idea that we are all robots under the control of God and He determined who is going to Hell before they are born.

On the other hand that does not mean we are not inclined to make mistakes. If we were perfect we would be having tea with God in Heaven. Free-will is the reality of Christianly.

Hepzibah · Sunday at 8:41 AM

Having tea with God in heaven on earth :)

ProDeo · Sunday at 12:14 PM

Hepzibah said:
I have moved the discussion on original sin as it is mixed up with the discussion on grace.

Great!

Hepzibah said:
https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/59563/9783110620580.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

"First, the article is not Scripture, and I have no obligation to accept its theology. Where the author goes beyond Scripture and speaks as though every human being literally participated in Adam's personal act of sin, I reject that. Romans 5 does not teach that we were preexistent souls standing beside Adam committing his transgression. In fact, Romans 5:14 speaks of people who “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.”

Depends how you read the document. Me, as a study how early church fathers thought about the fall and so now and then she gives her opinion, example is Origin. Without studying him what he had to say on the fall she ignores him. So I don't see the document as about the author but about the views early church fathers. The question is of course if she quoted them well.

Hepzibah said:
But the article does not support what you are claiming either. You accused the author of missing Gregory of Nazianzus, yet the article actually discusses Gregory directly and cites him as speaking corporately of mankind sharing in Adam's fall, deception, death, and restoration through Christ."

I said that Gregory of Nazianzus had been misunderstood when he said:

"For we believe that since we had fallen due to sin from the beginning and been led away by pleasure as far as idolatry and lawless bloodshed, we needed to be called back again and restored to our *original state*, through the heartfelt compassion of God our Father, who could not bear that such a work of his own hands as the human being should be lost. 366 Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 45, 12; PG 36, 637-640; transl. N. Verna Harrison, 171."

This is what Gregory said, that is, following the document -

When I was exiled from
Paradise, deprived of the tree of life, and
submerged in the gulf of material things, was
it not He who brought me back to man’s first
beatitude?

Hepzibah said:
Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Please show where this does not mean it was his mother who was in sin. It is said that she conceived David in adultery.

Yes, it's a known theory. But does it satisfy the condition in Deuteronomy 23:2 ?

A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

It actually can mean, not at all.

Davy · Sunday at 1:20 PM

Hepzibah said:
It is very well known about in Jewish tradition.

....

Jewish tradition of the crept in unawares, the Canaanites and Kenite scribes which were pagans that became religious Jews. Those were the ones who contended with Lord Jesus at His 1st coming, desiring to have Him killed so as to steal His Kingdom.

bdavidc · Sunday at 4:44 PM

Hepzibah said:
It is very well known about in Jewish tradition.

Did David's Mother Commit Adultery?

The Bible doesn't say much about David or his mother, but Jewish tradition says that many believed that David's mother committed adultery. See Psalm 69.

redeeminggod.com

(To research this further, see Yalkut Makiri Tehillim 118,28; Sefer HaTodaah, Sivan and Shavuot; Pinter, Don’t Give Up; Weisberg, Tending the Garden, 187f; Book 2 of Our Jewish Heritage. See also Nitzevet – the Mother of David)

It did indeed fit the context, as he was contemplating and confessing his own adultery with Bathsheba and partaking in poetic hyperbole. The psalms are full of exaggerations. The psalmist writes that "he drowns his bed with a single tear (Ps. 6:6) and Paul writes he is the chief of sinners 1Tim 1:15.

A chid will use such hyperbole and say regarding his maths test "I never get any problems right!"

Born in sin could very easily mean born into a sinful world and is often used in this way in scripture.

David's family rejected him as they thought he was a bastard. The word stranger in Ps 69:8 has the same Hebrew root as mazar meaning bastard. Tradition has it that David was forced into being a boy shepherd in the fields alone so he could hopefully be killed by a wild beast.

"Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. But each one shall die for his own sin." 1Kings 14:5-6

"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. e The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Ez 18:20

"So then each of us will give an account of himself to God." Romans 14:12

"For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality." Col:3:25

Romans 5:12 says that by Adam’s disobedience, sin entered into the world. But this verse does not say that the sin nature is transmitted by heredity. Instead, when sin entered the world, the result was death which was passed upon all men, I Corinthians 15:21-22, James 1:14-15.

When sin entered into the world, the world became the environment for sin to flourish. The world, flesh, and the devil influence, tempt and control every person, Ephesians 2:1-3, who has to choose whether to yield to sin or not. Only the Lord Jesus did not yield to temptation. But otherwise, the verdict is that all capable of sinning are guilty of having sinned.

A person becomes a sinner when he commits a sin. To sin is to go astray, transgress, trespass, err, or to miss the mark. The point is that sin is not a state of being but an action. It is not said that everyone is a sinner, but that all have sinned, Romans 3:23, I Kings 8:46. But to commit a sin, one must be at the age to discern right from wrong, Deuteronomy 1:39, Isaiah 7:15-16, Jonah 4:11.

When a man (child) sins, they have entered Satan's kingdom, taking on his nature, and need to be rescued out of it which Jesus did when he came to save sinners, by faith. The cost was the body of Christ which He thankfully gave.

The whole of the early church was built around the fact that the church was a hospital not a courtroom which it has become today.

I asked for Scripture, and you supplied tradition. The Bible never says David’s mother committed adultery. Even the tradition you linked says she conceived by her husband, Jesse, while others wrongly suspected adultery. Your own source does not establish your claim.

Calling Psalm 51:5 “hyperbole” does not explain it. David is confessing his own sinful condition, not accusing his mother. Psalm 69:8 describes estrangement from his family. It says nothing about illegitimacy or sending him into the fields hoping he would be killed.

Personal accountability does not cancel humanity’s fallen condition. Ezekiel 18 teaches responsibility for our own sins. Romans 5:19 also says, “By one man’s disobedience many were made sinners.” Paul says Adam’s disobedience made many sinners, not merely that it created a bad environment. Ephesians 2:3 describes us as “by nature the children of wrath.”

Your claim that sin is only an action also ignores “sin that dwelleth in me” (Romans 7:17). Scripture addresses both sinful acts and inward corruption. Verses about children lacking discernment do not teach that they acquire Satan’s nature upon their first sin. That is another claim you have not established.

Stop using tradition to explain away Scripture. We are accountable for our sins, and we belong to a fallen humanity that needs redemption through Christ. You must account for all those passages, not dismiss the ones that contradict your position.

Hepzibah · Monday at 3:30 AM

bdavidc said:
I asked for Scripture, and you supplied tradition. The Bible never says David’s mother committed adultery. Even the tradition you linked says she conceived by her husband, Jesse, while others wrongly suspected adultery. Your own source does not establish your claim.Calling Psalm 51:5 “hyperbole” does not explain it. David is confessing his own sinful condition, not accusing his mother. Psalm 69:8 describes estrangement from his family. It says nothing about illegitimacy or sending him into the fields hoping he would be killed.

There is one thing that is common in cults and heretics: they interpret scripture without taking into account apostolic tradition, in spoken and written word, and Jewish roots, and instead turn to ancient philosophies and build their religion on that and their own human reasoning.

You also do not take into account the varied genres of scripture.

"According to Jewish tradition, Boaz died on the night that he and Ruth were married (Midrash, Zuta, Ruth 4). Many believed that his death proved that God had condemned Boaz’ marriage to Ruth, and had punished him accordingly.

However, even though Boaz and Ruth had only been intimate for that one night, she conceived and gave birth to Obed.

Obed was then viewed as illegitimately born, as was his own son, Jesse. Nevertheless, both of these men labored hard in learning the Torah and loving God and so the conduct of their lives helped convince the surrounding communities that though Boaz had sinned, they themselves were accepted by God as part of the covenant community. Jesse married a Jewish girl named Nizbeth." (Quora)

Did David know the truth?

bdavidc said:
Personal accountability does not cancel humanity’s fallen condition. Ezekiel 18 teaches responsibility for our own sins. Romans 5:19 also says, “By one man’s disobedience many were made sinners.” Paul says Adam’s disobedience made many sinners, not merely that it created a bad environment. Ephesians 2:3 describes us as “by nature the children of wrath.”
Your claim that sin is only an action also ignores “sin that dwelleth in me” (Romans 7:17). Scripture addresses both sinful acts and inward corruption. Verses about children lacking discernment do not teach that they acquire Satan’s nature upon their first sin. That is another claim you have not established.

Stop using tradition to explain away Scripture. We are accountable for our sins, and we belong to a fallen humanity that needs redemption through Christ. You must account for all those passages, not dismiss the ones that contradict your position.

Man is responsible for his own sins and nobody else's and once he falls, sin dwells in him and he needs redemption through Christ. You are deliberately ignoring my agreement here.

Does anyone else here think that bdavidc is AI?

Hepzibah · Monday at 3:33 AM

ProDeo said:
Yes, it's a known theory. But does it satisfy the condition in Deuteronomy 23:2 ?

A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

It actually can mean, not at all.

Agreed he was not a bastard only thought of as one.

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Is original sin scriptural?

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Did David's Mother Commit Adultery?

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Did David's Mother Commit Adultery?

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