Is original sin scriptural?

[Hepzibah]

I have moved the discussion on original sin as it is mixed up with the discussion on grace.

@bdavidc wrote:

"I have now read the article, and your position is worse than I initially understood."

Thank you for doing that but I am confused as there were two articles referenced:

Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church of Central Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts

The Website of St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church

www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org

https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/59563/9783110620580.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

"First, the article is not Scripture, and I have no obligation to accept its theology. Where the author goes beyond Scripture and speaks as though every human being literally participated in Adam's personal act of sin, I reject that. Romans 5 does not teach that we were preexistent souls standing beside Adam committing his transgression. In fact, Romans 5:14 speaks of people who “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.”

I agree with this.

"Scripture gives us what we need without the speculation. “By the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation,” and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:18-19). Adam sinned. His fall brought sin, death, and condemnation into the human race.

But the article does not support what you are claiming either. You accused the author of missing Gregory of Nazianzus, yet the article actually discusses Gregory directly and cites him as speaking corporately of mankind sharing in Adam's fall, deception, death, and restoration through Christ."

I said that Gregory of Nazianzus had been misunderstood when he said:

"For we believe that since we had fallen due to sin from the beginning and been led away by pleasure as far as idolatry and lawless bloodshed, we needed to be called back again and restored to our *original state*, through the heartfelt compassion of God our Father, who could not bear that such a work of his own hands as the human being should be lost. 366 Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 45, 12; PG 36, 637-640; transl. N. Verna Harrison, 171."

I said: How can this be if we are born into a state of sinfulness? It rather says that something happened to us - we fell away from the original state (innocence) being tempted, and a work of God was required to call us Back and Restore us. The sin from the beginning, is of course Adam's sin with which we share once we give in to temptation which is inevitable due to the power of Satan. And what is our *original state*?

"Your claim that man is born in the same innocent state as Adam and only falls when he personally chooses sin is false teaching."

Paul says plainly, “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19). He does not say every person is born as another innocent Adam and later recreates the Fall for himself.

Ephesians 2:3 says we are “by nature the children of wrath.” Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

If you wish to join in with the discussion between @ProDeo and myself, please begin by stating your full case ie scriptural support for original sin which I claim is weak.

I agree with these verses:

"by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19)

Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Please show where this does not mean it was his mother who was in sin. It is said that she conceived David in adultery.

 

[newton3005]

>Is original sin scriptural?

***Yes.

 

[bdavidc]

I have moved the discussion on original sin as it is mixed up with the discussion on grace.

@bdavidc wrote:

"I have now read the article, and your position is worse than I initially understood."

Thank you for doing that but I am confused as there were two articles referenced:

Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church of Central Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts

The Website of St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church

www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org

https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/59563/9783110620580.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

"First, the article is not Scripture, and I have no obligation to accept its theology. Where the author goes beyond Scripture and speaks as though every human being literally participated in Adam's personal act of sin, I reject that. Romans 5 does not teach that we were preexistent souls standing beside Adam committing his transgression. In fact, Romans 5:14 speaks of people who “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.”

I agree with this.

"Scripture gives us what we need without the speculation. “By the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation,” and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:18-19). Adam sinned. His fall brought sin, death, and condemnation into the human race.

But the article does not support what you are claiming either. You accused the author of missing Gregory of Nazianzus, yet the article actually discusses Gregory directly and cites him as speaking corporately of mankind sharing in Adam's fall, deception, death, and restoration through Christ."

I said that Gregory of Nazianzus had been misunderstood when he said:

"For we believe that since we had fallen due to sin from the beginning and been led away by pleasure as far as idolatry and lawless bloodshed, we needed to be called back again and restored to our *original state*, through the heartfelt compassion of God our Father, who could not bear that such a work of his own hands as the human being should be lost. 366 Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 45, 12; PG 36, 637-640; transl. N. Verna Harrison, 171."

I said: How can this be if we are born into a state of sinfulness? It rather says that something happened to us - we fell away from the original state (innocence) being tempted, and a work of God was required to call us Back and Restore us. The sin from the beginning, is of course Adam's sin with which we share once we give in to temptation which is inevitable due to the power of Satan. And what is our *original state*?

"Your claim that man is born in the same innocent state as Adam and only falls when he personally chooses sin is false teaching."

Paul says plainly, “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19). He does not say every person is born as another innocent Adam and later recreates the Fall for himself.

Ephesians 2:3 says we are “by nature the children of wrath.” Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

If you wish to join in with the discussion between @ProDeo and myself, please begin by stating your full case ie scriptural support for original sin which I claim is weak.

I agree with these verses:

"by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19)

Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Please show where this does not mean it was his mother who was in sin. It is said that she conceived David in adultery.

Scripture never says David was conceived in adultery. If you claim that, please provide the verse. We cannot invent an affair involving David’s mother just to avoid what Psalm 51:5 plainly says.

David wrote, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” The subject of this confession is David. The entire Psalm concerns his sin, guilt, and need for cleansing:

“For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me” (Psalm 51:3).

“Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin” (Psalm 51:2).

David suddenly accusing his mother of adultery would not fit the context at all. Psalm 51:5 explains how deeply his own sinful condition reaches. It was present from conception, not something he acquired only after committing his first personal sin.

Romans 5 says the same thing. “By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (verse 12), and “by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners” (verse 19). Paul does not say Adam merely provided a bad example that everyone later chooses to imitate. He says Adam’s disobedience made many sinners, brought judgment upon all men, and introduced death into the human race.

Ephesians 2:3 also says we “were by nature the children of wrath.” It does not say we were born innocent and became children of wrath only after Satan successfully tempted us.

The phrase “original sin” is not found in Scripture, so I am not asking anyone to defend a man-made label. But the biblical truth is clear: mankind is not born in Adam’s original innocence. We are born into a fallen race with a sinful nature, and we personally confirm that nature by sinning. That is why we need more than restoration to supposed childhood innocence. We need to be born again through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Lambano]

I found this statement from the article to be interesting.

The Eastern Church, unlike its Western counterpart, never speaks of guilt being passed from Adam and Eve to their progeny, as did Augustine. Instead, it is posited that each person bears the guilt of his or her own sin. The question becomes, "What then is the inheritance of humanity from Adam and Eve if it is not guilt?" The Orthodox Fathers answer as one: death.

Romans 5 does not teach that we were preexistent souls standing beside Adam committing his transgression. In fact, Romans 5:14 speaks of people who “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.”

I see a bunch of stuff happening here. I'm sure Paul was aware of Ezekiel 18, summarized by v18:20 - The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. I think that the two verses immediately following the verse in question (Romans 5:12) definitely says GUILT is not reckoned to someone unless they have Torah and know better.

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

This is consistent with what Paul says about Torah in chapter 7, in Roman 3:20 (Through the Law comes knowledge of sin) and Romans 2:12 -All who sin apart from the Law will also perish apart from the Law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the Law.

So, I think the Eastern Orthodox understanding of Ancestral Sin is closer to what Paul says: We inherited death, we inherited the disease of Sin, but not the guilt of Adam's sin.

One caveat: "Guilt" is a righteousness term. Holiness is a separate issue. Did we inherit the STAIN, the "uncleanness" of "Original Sin" from Adam? I would have to say we did.

 

[Lambano]

Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Please show where this does not mean it was his mother who was in sin. It is said that she conceived David in adultery.

Psalms are poetry, and I see that more as a poetic way of saying that David realized he was sinful from the moment he was conceived. It has nothing to do with his mother.

I recall you saying you were autistic, and the literature I've received (as the grandfather of a young man who is "on the spectrum") says that generally autistics don't do well with non-literal language. If this is true for you, the misunderstanding is totally understandable.