I have moved the discussion on original sin as it is mixed up with the discussion on grace.
@bdavidc wrote:
"I have now read the article, and your position is worse than I initially understood."
Thank you for doing that but I am confused as there were two articles referenced:
www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org
"First, the article is not Scripture, and I have no obligation to accept its theology. Where the author goes beyond Scripture and speaks as though every human being literally participated in Adam's personal act of sin, I reject that. Romans 5 does not teach that we were preexistent souls standing beside Adam committing his transgression. In fact, Romans 5:14 speaks of people who “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.”
I agree with this.
"Scripture gives us what we need without the speculation. “By the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation,” and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:18-19). Adam sinned. His fall brought sin, death, and condemnation into the human race.
But the article does not support what you are claiming either. You accused the author of missing Gregory of Nazianzus, yet the article actually discusses Gregory directly and cites him as speaking corporately of mankind sharing in Adam's fall, deception, death, and restoration through Christ."
I said that Gregory of Nazianzus had been misunderstood when he said:
"For we believe that since we had fallen due to sin from the beginning and been led away by pleasure as far as idolatry and lawless bloodshed, we needed to be called back again and restored to our *original state*, through the heartfelt compassion of God our Father, who could not bear that such a work of his own hands as the human being should be lost. 366 Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 45, 12; PG 36, 637-640; transl. N. Verna Harrison, 171."
I said: How can this be if we are born into a state of sinfulness? It rather says that something happened to us - we fell away from the original state (innocence) being tempted, and a work of God was required to call us Back and Restore us. The sin from the beginning, is of course Adam's sin with which we share once we give in to temptation which is inevitable due to the power of Satan. And what is our *original state*?
"Your claim that man is born in the same innocent state as Adam and only falls when he personally chooses sin is false teaching."
Paul says plainly, “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19). He does not say every person is born as another innocent Adam and later recreates the Fall for himself.
Ephesians 2:3 says we are “by nature the children of wrath.” Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
If you wish to join in with the discussion between @ProDeo and myself, please begin by stating your full case ie scriptural support for original sin which I claim is weak.
I agree with these verses:
"by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19)
Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Please show where this does not mean it was his mother who was in sin. It is said that she conceived David in adultery.
@bdavidc wrote:
"I have now read the article, and your position is worse than I initially understood."
Thank you for doing that but I am confused as there were two articles referenced:
Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church of Central Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts
The Website of St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church
www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org
"First, the article is not Scripture, and I have no obligation to accept its theology. Where the author goes beyond Scripture and speaks as though every human being literally participated in Adam's personal act of sin, I reject that. Romans 5 does not teach that we were preexistent souls standing beside Adam committing his transgression. In fact, Romans 5:14 speaks of people who “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.”
I agree with this.
"Scripture gives us what we need without the speculation. “By the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation,” and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:18-19). Adam sinned. His fall brought sin, death, and condemnation into the human race.
But the article does not support what you are claiming either. You accused the author of missing Gregory of Nazianzus, yet the article actually discusses Gregory directly and cites him as speaking corporately of mankind sharing in Adam's fall, deception, death, and restoration through Christ."
I said that Gregory of Nazianzus had been misunderstood when he said:
"For we believe that since we had fallen due to sin from the beginning and been led away by pleasure as far as idolatry and lawless bloodshed, we needed to be called back again and restored to our *original state*, through the heartfelt compassion of God our Father, who could not bear that such a work of his own hands as the human being should be lost. 366 Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 45, 12; PG 36, 637-640; transl. N. Verna Harrison, 171."
I said: How can this be if we are born into a state of sinfulness? It rather says that something happened to us - we fell away from the original state (innocence) being tempted, and a work of God was required to call us Back and Restore us. The sin from the beginning, is of course Adam's sin with which we share once we give in to temptation which is inevitable due to the power of Satan. And what is our *original state*?
"Your claim that man is born in the same innocent state as Adam and only falls when he personally chooses sin is false teaching."
Paul says plainly, “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19). He does not say every person is born as another innocent Adam and later recreates the Fall for himself.
Ephesians 2:3 says we are “by nature the children of wrath.” Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
If you wish to join in with the discussion between @ProDeo and myself, please begin by stating your full case ie scriptural support for original sin which I claim is weak.
I agree with these verses:
"by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12), and “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners” (Romans 5:19)
Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Please show where this does not mean it was his mother who was in sin. It is said that she conceived David in adultery.
