Stop Believing the "Any Moment" Myth
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I see "you will not be caught up together (That is the day) until the falling away occurs".
You have it as "you will not be caught together until you are caught up together"
doesn't make sense that way
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Don't bother looking at the context or anything. God forbid that you ever do that. In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul talked about wickedness no longer being restrained at some point before the second coming of Christ. He indicated during that time: "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.". So, this is a time period during which wickedness and the power of Satan is unrestrained "with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish". It makes complete sense that a mass falling away from the faith could happen during a time when there is a significant increase in deception and wickedness.
And other scripture supports there being a time of mass apostasy before Jesus returns as well.
Matthew 24:10 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
So, the evidence strongly points towards Paul saying in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 that a mass departure/falling away from the faith and the revealing of the man of sin will occur before Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him (before the rapture). He was not saying that the church would depart the earth before Jesus returns. He is saying that a departure/falling away from faith in the church and revealing of the man of sin will occur before Jesus returns. But, since that contradicts pre-trib, you have to try to make the departure Paul referenced refer to the rapture instead. The context does not support that. He was talking about what had to happen first before Christ's coming and our gathering to Him occurs.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Read the rest of 2 Thessalonians 2. Would you not expect that a time of unrestrained wickedness involving "the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish" (2 Thess 2:9-10) would include many people falling away from the faith?
Also, Paul was talking about things that would occur before the rapture occurs. He referenced the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 by referring to the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him.. Then in verse 3 he references two things that had to happen first before Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him occurs. Why would he say that the rapture had to occur before the rapture occurs? Obviously, he wouldn't have done that.
Yes, the elect will be gathered in some way at the end of the tribulation.
just curious...where does 1 Thes 4 say Jesus will send out His angels to do the gathering and just after to that the raising of the dead?
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. In some way? Paul told us in what way in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. We will be gathered to meet the Lord "in the air" after He descends from heaven.
It doesn't, but that proves nothing. Do you believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 both refer to the same event, namely the second coming or return of Jesus Christ? If so, where does Revelation 19:11-21 reference Jesus sending out His angels to gather the elect? Nowhere, of course. Do you see how silly that kind of argument is? Not every passage relating to the return of Christ contains all of the same details.
No, not a little ol’ chip that’ll become chipped in no time or yet another tattoo that’ll be added to your skin that’s already covered with them. The mark of the beast is the great apostasy! What’s the great apostasy? It’s worshiping the false christ, you know, the one who comes before Jesus, the one who promises to take everyone away in his shiny new rapturemobile! (I jest to make my point.).
Revelation 13:4-9 (KJV) 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
That's not what the verse says, though.
"That day shall not come"
Which day is the Apostle referring to?
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV)
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Depending on your Bible version, this reads "the day of Christ", or, "the day of the LORD". Is this referring to the Day of the LORD, that is, the day of darkness and judgment? Or is this referring to "rapture day"?
Paul was alerting them to not be troubled by those who were saying this day had arrived. If it was rapture day, why would they be troubled? But if it were judgment day, that would be troubling indeed.
Let's look a bit at what he said.
Concerning being gathered to Christ (raptured), don't be upset because someone is telling you the day of Christ has arrived (is here). That day (the day of Christ) won't come except the departure come first, and the man of sin be revealed.
Many read this as if the antecedent of "that day" were "our gathering to Him", but that is not named as a "day", rather, it is an "event". There is a day named, this being "the day of Christ/the Lord". That is the day that will not come except the departure and revealing come first.
If this day were in fact "rapture day", then why would they be troubled when someone says it's here? They would be troubled by someone telling them it was the Day of the LORD, judgment and plagues, and that would be troubling indeed! So Paul is reassuring them that the ones saying such things were wrong, because these other things hadn't happened yet.
Much love!
That's exactly what it says
He was speaking of the day he mentioned in his previous letter. Some were saying that resurrection had already passed and Paul assured them it hadn't. That's the foreshadowing for the context of 2Th 2
They would not have any distress if the Day of judgement and plagues had passed, that would have been a relief. They were being told that the resurrection that Paul spoke of in 1th 4 had passed. It was a errant teaching in the churches at the time.
2 Ti 2:17-18 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
THAT is what distress them. Paul assured them it wouldn't until a falling away happened and the leader of that apostacy would be revealed.
Here is what AT Robertson has to say:
No that's not correct.
"As though that day had arrived/is now here" Not, had passed.
Much love!
Tell me something . . . how would you know this is "the" apostasy? Of all the apostasy in the centuries past, and all the apostasy happening now, what is it that would say to you, "this is it"?
Much love!
No need to wrest anything, just follow along the language, as I've been showing.
Much love!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Both. The rapture will occur on the day of the Lord. In verse 1, Paul refers to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering unto him". That's one event. In verse 2 he refers to that event as "the day of Christ" or "the day of the Lord". In verse 3 he says that day (the day that Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him (the day of Christ/the Lord) will not come until after there is first a falling away and the man of sin is revealed.
If you read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 you should see that is speaking of one event involving both the rapture of the church and the sudden, unexpected wrath of Christ on unbelievers resulting in "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape". The following passage speaks of that day as well...
2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
It should be obvious that the day "when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and...admired in all them that believe" is the same day as the rapture and the same day when Jesus will take vengeance on unbelievers. Why would anyone think that verse 10 above would occur on any day except the day that the rapture occurs? There's no reason to think that.
He didn't want them to be fooled by any communication claiming to be from them (Paul or any of those who were in his ministry) saying that the day of the Lord was at hand. That would contradict what Paul had taught them in person, which included the fact that the falling away and man of sin being revealed had to happen first.
That proves nothing. It's an event that will happen on a certain unknown day in the future at an unknown hour.
You think Paul, in verse 2, somehow changed the subject he had just introduced in verse 1. That makes no sense. No, in verse 2 he was simply referring to the day that Jesus will come and we are gathered to Him as "the day of Christ" or "the day of the Lord".
They would be troubled if someone said that they missed the rapture since they would think they were about to have Christ's wrath come down on them, as Paul said would happen to unbelievers on the day Christ comes again (1 Thess 4:14-5:3), but Paul reminded them that day could not possibly come before certain things happen first.
What other post? I assure you, you don't have any "gotchas" What do you think of AT Robertson's comments? You skipped right over them.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You mean you don't... understand who the "man of sin" actually is? Who committed the very first sin, ever? And if you say Adam, then you will hear a game error buzzer go off, hypothetically. (See 1 John 3:8).
If you are still here when the coming false-Messiah shows up, not having died of natural causes, etc., beforehand, then you will indeed... see about that very false-Messiah which Lord Jesus warned His faithful Church about in Matthew 24:23-26, and that Apostle Paul warned the Church about in 2 Thessalonians 2, and that Apostle John warned about in Revelation 13:11 forward.
Matthew 24:23-26 by Lord Jesus. The 24th verse uses Greek pseudochristos which Dr. James Strong defined as 'a spurious Messiah' (NT:5580).
2 Thessalonians 2:4 by Apostle Paul. Paul's idea that "man of sin" will exalt himself in a stone temple in Jerusalem as GOD, and over all that is even called... GOD, or that is worshiped, and will have the power of great signs and wonders and miracles, is about a mimic of the office of Christ.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You can have NO CONTRADICTIONS in God's Word. And you MADE one by denying the presented 2 Thessalonians 2 Scripture by Apostle Paul with the EXCUSE that one verse does not make a valid Bible doctrine.
And the thing is, what Paul declared in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 that the "man of sin" (Antichrist) MUST COME FIRST creating a great "falling away", is TAUGHT ELSEWHERE IN BIBLE SCRIPTURE ALSO, AND NOT JUST BY APOSTLE PAUL.
Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV
Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV
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