The different denominational organizations are the work of satan and his divide and conquer mentality. Jesus and His followers started the Christian movement, and their example should be an example to everyone. But Rome started a pagan based religion, which called itself "christian", and has been around every since. As the prophet Daniel describes this religion, as one to stay away from.."it thinks to change God's times and laws"..which it did..without Biblical authority of course!
WHY CHRISTIANS DON'T ATTEND CHURCH?
- Thread starter RANDOR
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
I've been a Spirit filled Christian (male) since 1972 and have seen brothers and sisters in the Lord, including myself, make all sorts of changes to their spiritual lives. Extremism, disillusionment, etc. decreased interest in large scale anything for many of us. I've slowed, nearly to a halt, in my association with organized groups.
Numerous friends have turned away entirely, due to various influences. A few have set aside their faith altogether. The need is no longer there. Others, like me, maintain a safe distance, study at home and pray as we feel the need. Organizations have left such a lasting scar on so many members of the body.
A couple of my friends are now proclaimed atheists, while others went on to build their own several hundred member ministries, mostly nondenominational. A few took posts in evangelical churches after having their fill of newer, more improved, movements.
Today, there exists a large variety of perspective among my old Spirit filled Christian friends, and yet most would still say they would love to be in the presence of God.
I'm sure that shakings still go on, but where is all this disillusionment and separation leading the burned? What is ahead for those who can no longer attend or could care less about the hype or newest revelation? Is our lack of involvement wrong? I simply don't think so.
I was without an anchor as a Christian during the 70's when the Jesus Movement came rushing into my life in the form, initially, of loving, God-fearing young people who loved to gather, sing simple three chord Scripture songs, and worship. It really wasn't about doctrine in those days; but then, as always, in came a prevailing doctrine borrowed from several error ridden radio evangelists: the prosperity gospel.
The message was all about entitlement and how to cause God to move in accordance to one's will and perceived need. Scriptures that were to bring about these miracles were hung on refrigerator doors and mirrors, reminding us to speak into existence what we wanted; after all, our Father owned the cattle on a thousand hills and He was well able and willing to give us above all we could ask or think.
If one didn't see a manifestation of their request, it was ALWAYS told to him/her that the cause was a lack of faith, seldomly because they had asked outside of God's will or to consume that thing upon their lust, but because they had too little faith to move the mountain.
Because I have been dealing with health issues from the time I was born, having barely survived as an incubator baby, health issues were always at the top of my prayer list. All the many messages that I read and heard by everyone from visiting and local ministers to Bosworth's and Osborne's books, I tried applying, but to no avail. For me, it took the finding of a good paying job with excellent health benefits to gain the needed healthcare.
So, I see where economics is by far the biggest hindrance to a person's needs being met. But then, that is the big hook, isn't it? The more you give monetarily, the more money and entitlements you'll get in return, right? The way I recall being taught was that to gain economic stability one should give money, rather than seek an education, earn a degree, and build with common sense. The answer to everything was to pray and thank, quote Scripture, give money, and to attend as often as the doors were open.
The smartest ones in the ministry took the WOF messages and used them to manipulate the thoughts of believers to give to them, and when the small group they were a part of was not offering enough to them, they moved onward and upward, to greater heights, larger crowds and larger donations. That method of gaining wealth has worked for several old friends, a couple of whom are now millionaires.
For me, I find the home church movement to be the start of an answer to the nonsense around what we once fellowshipped. It is there you will find small groups, no overhead, and a chance to learn what it is to seek the Lord in order to bring something to add to a gathering, rather than to merely warm a seat. It makes much more sense. All the other stuff can be done away with; since, as I see it now, "one man shows" are not at all described in Scripture as the format of the early gatherings.
David
Numerous friends have turned away entirely, due to various influences. A few have set aside their faith altogether. The need is no longer there. Others, like me, maintain a safe distance, study at home and pray as we feel the need. Organizations have left such a lasting scar on so many members of the body.
A couple of my friends are now proclaimed atheists, while others went on to build their own several hundred member ministries, mostly nondenominational. A few took posts in evangelical churches after having their fill of newer, more improved, movements.
Today, there exists a large variety of perspective among my old Spirit filled Christian friends, and yet most would still say they would love to be in the presence of God.
I'm sure that shakings still go on, but where is all this disillusionment and separation leading the burned? What is ahead for those who can no longer attend or could care less about the hype or newest revelation? Is our lack of involvement wrong? I simply don't think so.
I was without an anchor as a Christian during the 70's when the Jesus Movement came rushing into my life in the form, initially, of loving, God-fearing young people who loved to gather, sing simple three chord Scripture songs, and worship. It really wasn't about doctrine in those days; but then, as always, in came a prevailing doctrine borrowed from several error ridden radio evangelists: the prosperity gospel.
The message was all about entitlement and how to cause God to move in accordance to one's will and perceived need. Scriptures that were to bring about these miracles were hung on refrigerator doors and mirrors, reminding us to speak into existence what we wanted; after all, our Father owned the cattle on a thousand hills and He was well able and willing to give us above all we could ask or think.
If one didn't see a manifestation of their request, it was ALWAYS told to him/her that the cause was a lack of faith, seldomly because they had asked outside of God's will or to consume that thing upon their lust, but because they had too little faith to move the mountain.
Because I have been dealing with health issues from the time I was born, having barely survived as an incubator baby, health issues were always at the top of my prayer list. All the many messages that I read and heard by everyone from visiting and local ministers to Bosworth's and Osborne's books, I tried applying, but to no avail. For me, it took the finding of a good paying job with excellent health benefits to gain the needed healthcare.
So, I see where economics is by far the biggest hindrance to a person's needs being met. But then, that is the big hook, isn't it? The more you give monetarily, the more money and entitlements you'll get in return, right? The way I recall being taught was that to gain economic stability one should give money, rather than seek an education, earn a degree, and build with common sense. The answer to everything was to pray and thank, quote Scripture, give money, and to attend as often as the doors were open.
The smartest ones in the ministry took the WOF messages and used them to manipulate the thoughts of believers to give to them, and when the small group they were a part of was not offering enough to them, they moved onward and upward, to greater heights, larger crowds and larger donations. That method of gaining wealth has worked for several old friends, a couple of whom are now millionaires.
For me, I find the home church movement to be the start of an answer to the nonsense around what we once fellowshipped. It is there you will find small groups, no overhead, and a chance to learn what it is to seek the Lord in order to bring something to add to a gathering, rather than to merely warm a seat. It makes much more sense. All the other stuff can be done away with; since, as I see it now, "one man shows" are not at all described in Scripture as the format of the early gatherings.
David
David...
In all but a very few instances, your testimony could have been mine. Raised in the Church of Christ, by 1972 I removed myself from the COC and looked into, and finally embraced the Pentecostal movement, followed by a three or four year period with the charismatics...spending two summers in Canada, ministering to the Indians and other suchlike.
By 1975 though, I was like you, without an anchor save Jesus alone. So, attending a small bible study in Louisiana one night, at some charismatic friends' house, I chanced upon some folks who were readers of, and to some degree disciples of Watchman Nee. And of course, his protégé, Witness Lee, whom I came to know slightly by about '79.
This group, the 'local church' was originally founded upon the concept of house churches in China. By 1933 their theologies so dovetailed with the Brethren churches in England (who were also, at first, a house church system), that Brother Nee actually paid a visit to England to explore a joint effort in the Lord. He loved their ideas, but ended up disappointed when the 'Exclusive Brethren' group disowned him because he had visited and spoken to an 'Inclusive Brethren' Group.
So the first thing I did, when I became loosely associated with the Local Church, was to (attempt to) put aside all of my past (Just as Paul admonishes in Phil. 3), and lay before the Lord a completely clean slate on which to write the truth of God's Word. While one can say that quickly, it actually takes years to do it. And for years I mightily struggled to do so. But each and every bit of untruth, every bit of darkness I threw away, was replaced with God's Word, the truth...And that, I believe, should be the definition of growing in grace.
Back in 1975 though, in reading Watchman Nee's biography, I noted that he had been heard to say, "I reckon to read the entire New Testament at least once a month". That statement, that idea, utterly changed my life (I had met and heard, in 1960, a Church of Christ "Walking Bible" named L.D. Lewis who quoted the bible extensively during meetings...and it impressed me greatly) to this very day, nearly 40 years later.
So I decided that if Watchman Nee could read the entire New Testament monthly...I would do so twice monthly. And so began, in mid'June of 1975, a personal discipline that continues unabated to this day, and it is my goal, to continue as long as I live. At this point, I finished, this past Saturday evening, my 1,023rd reading of the entire New Testament. I had hoped for, although I didn't pray for, years enough to read the whole New Testament 1,000 times (I most certainly didn't ignore the Old Testament). God has given me grace to allow me to exceed that number.
As ye sow, so shall ye reap. And he who to the spirit sows, shall of the spirit reap. Anyone having spent so much time and effort in studying God's Word, must be expected to know it well, and to know it well indeed. And how stupid would he be, who knowing God's Word so excellently and so intimately failed to heed it?
And that's the rub. About 20 years ago, I asked my Dad about the Church of Christ 'walking bible'' what had become of him, where was he? Dad replied that, "Brother Lewis eventually left the church, and put off all religion..." He also said a couple of things that had me thinking Brother Lewis had pretty much become a gutter bum and wino.
So it was that one day, inevitably, as my knowledge increased I began to compare the modern church (of whatever name and class), or what passes for the church (after all, is it the church simply because we say so? we think so? it has a preacher and steeple? Or is it the Church if God alone declares it so?) with the Word of God.
And I came to realize exactly what happened to L.D. Lewis, the Church of Christ Walking Bible...His knowledge of God's Word, and his personal integrity, his relationship with Jesus Christ, absolutely required him to disassociate with the modern church. He didn't become a gutter bum. He became a David, a Julabee Jones.
And it has happened to me. My spiritual life now is one of every waking hour, even at work, praying, reliving scripture, preaching to myself and to God. At home, it's retreating to my room, my standard 20 chapters of the New Testament for 13 days, taking a one day break (reading the O.T.. the anti-Nicene church fathers, etc) , and beginning anew the next evening... then praying and singing (with guitar) psalms, hymns, songs of praise, songs I've written and meditating on the scriptures.
I know the Bible too well to insult God by remaining in 'religion'. I have a list, a very long list, of the things we find in today's churches (which are, for all intents and purposes, businesses, just like, well, businesses) that ARE NOT supported in the New Testament.
Let me give you a preview of that list. See if you'd like to add to yourself.
In the New Testament, there are no church buildings, no single 'pastors', no paid 'clergy' (in fact, no 'clergy' whatever, in further fact, no paid anybody. Is God an employer? Does God pay for insurance and retirement plans? NOT in the New Testament), no pews, no pulpits, no Sunday Schools, no Sunday School teachers, no worship leaders, no 'church' boards, no 'tote' boards, no electric bills, no church mortgages, no nurseries, no Easter Egg hunts, no Lent, no Christmas celebrations, no 'tithing', no seminaries...the list goes on and on.
No Mega-churches, no church campuses, no bus ministries, no youth pastors or teachers, no pizza parties, no trips to theme parks, no rock music. No church bulletins (by which the Holy Spirit is totally removed from any influence in the meetings), no large video or graphics screens, no p.a. systems...
No drunks, no sinners, no LBGTABC's, no altar (in the church, it isn't the altar that ministers to us, it the Throne of Grace, ministering to us from heaven), no spousal violence, nothing that could be considered a spot or blemish. Yes, the church ministers to the lost...but accepts only the saved. For there is no "Joining the Church", there is only being 'added to the church'.
In the New Testament, giving is for three reasons alone, 1) giving to the poor, 2) ministering to the saints, 3) for the work of the apostolic ministry. And it doesn't appear to be gathered by collection, for even Paul said he did not want any 'gatherings' when he came to church, but that every man was to lay by him in store, what he felt to give.
And on the first day of the week, the church met to observe the Lord's supper.
So how did Paul's apostolic ministry make it? Paul worked. So did members of his team, such as Aquila and Priscilla. The various churches procured gifts to send to the ministry (number 3 above), by which they helped to spread the gospel. But more importantly, they sent young members of their own church, to serve and to work with Paul in the apostolic 'work'.
Look at Revelation chapter ten, by way of closing...At verses 8-10,
"And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter..."
I heard no voice, save the small quiet voice of the Holy Spirit, urging me take the little book, The New Testament, and to eat it up. And I've eaten it up for nearly 60 years (I started reading the bible at age five, but as a discipline at age 25...I'm 64 now).
And yes, its sweetness in the mouth is addicting. I cannot go for more than a few minutes without reaching into my mind, into my spirit, and drawing forth the 'hidden manna' (Rev 2:17). Ever is there on me, on my person, a bible, whether paper, phone or tablet...
But after eating it, there is bitterness within. For I spend my days in horror at the condition of what we call the church. Can God accept what we're offering? And if He can't? An entire generation of Jews died in the wilderness because they didn't take in, learn and obey God's Word. Being a God of covenant, when the children of Israel failed to keep their part, when they distained God, it was required of God that they be tossed out of God's hand,
"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord." God forbid, that we should face one day, being 'disregarded' by God.
But, as Jesus said, "Every plant which my heavenly hath not planted, SHALL BE ROOTED UP". Matt 15:13.
God bless you,
I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ,
Julabee Jones
In all but a very few instances, your testimony could have been mine. Raised in the Church of Christ, by 1972 I removed myself from the COC and looked into, and finally embraced the Pentecostal movement, followed by a three or four year period with the charismatics...spending two summers in Canada, ministering to the Indians and other suchlike.
By 1975 though, I was like you, without an anchor save Jesus alone. So, attending a small bible study in Louisiana one night, at some charismatic friends' house, I chanced upon some folks who were readers of, and to some degree disciples of Watchman Nee. And of course, his protégé, Witness Lee, whom I came to know slightly by about '79.
This group, the 'local church' was originally founded upon the concept of house churches in China. By 1933 their theologies so dovetailed with the Brethren churches in England (who were also, at first, a house church system), that Brother Nee actually paid a visit to England to explore a joint effort in the Lord. He loved their ideas, but ended up disappointed when the 'Exclusive Brethren' group disowned him because he had visited and spoken to an 'Inclusive Brethren' Group.
So the first thing I did, when I became loosely associated with the Local Church, was to (attempt to) put aside all of my past (Just as Paul admonishes in Phil. 3), and lay before the Lord a completely clean slate on which to write the truth of God's Word. While one can say that quickly, it actually takes years to do it. And for years I mightily struggled to do so. But each and every bit of untruth, every bit of darkness I threw away, was replaced with God's Word, the truth...And that, I believe, should be the definition of growing in grace.
Back in 1975 though, in reading Watchman Nee's biography, I noted that he had been heard to say, "I reckon to read the entire New Testament at least once a month". That statement, that idea, utterly changed my life (I had met and heard, in 1960, a Church of Christ "Walking Bible" named L.D. Lewis who quoted the bible extensively during meetings...and it impressed me greatly) to this very day, nearly 40 years later.
So I decided that if Watchman Nee could read the entire New Testament monthly...I would do so twice monthly. And so began, in mid'June of 1975, a personal discipline that continues unabated to this day, and it is my goal, to continue as long as I live. At this point, I finished, this past Saturday evening, my 1,023rd reading of the entire New Testament. I had hoped for, although I didn't pray for, years enough to read the whole New Testament 1,000 times (I most certainly didn't ignore the Old Testament). God has given me grace to allow me to exceed that number.
As ye sow, so shall ye reap. And he who to the spirit sows, shall of the spirit reap. Anyone having spent so much time and effort in studying God's Word, must be expected to know it well, and to know it well indeed. And how stupid would he be, who knowing God's Word so excellently and so intimately failed to heed it?
And that's the rub. About 20 years ago, I asked my Dad about the Church of Christ 'walking bible'' what had become of him, where was he? Dad replied that, "Brother Lewis eventually left the church, and put off all religion..." He also said a couple of things that had me thinking Brother Lewis had pretty much become a gutter bum and wino.
So it was that one day, inevitably, as my knowledge increased I began to compare the modern church (of whatever name and class), or what passes for the church (after all, is it the church simply because we say so? we think so? it has a preacher and steeple? Or is it the Church if God alone declares it so?) with the Word of God.
And I came to realize exactly what happened to L.D. Lewis, the Church of Christ Walking Bible...His knowledge of God's Word, and his personal integrity, his relationship with Jesus Christ, absolutely required him to disassociate with the modern church. He didn't become a gutter bum. He became a David, a Julabee Jones.
And it has happened to me. My spiritual life now is one of every waking hour, even at work, praying, reliving scripture, preaching to myself and to God. At home, it's retreating to my room, my standard 20 chapters of the New Testament for 13 days, taking a one day break (reading the O.T.. the anti-Nicene church fathers, etc) , and beginning anew the next evening... then praying and singing (with guitar) psalms, hymns, songs of praise, songs I've written and meditating on the scriptures.
I know the Bible too well to insult God by remaining in 'religion'. I have a list, a very long list, of the things we find in today's churches (which are, for all intents and purposes, businesses, just like, well, businesses) that ARE NOT supported in the New Testament.
Let me give you a preview of that list. See if you'd like to add to yourself.
In the New Testament, there are no church buildings, no single 'pastors', no paid 'clergy' (in fact, no 'clergy' whatever, in further fact, no paid anybody. Is God an employer? Does God pay for insurance and retirement plans? NOT in the New Testament), no pews, no pulpits, no Sunday Schools, no Sunday School teachers, no worship leaders, no 'church' boards, no 'tote' boards, no electric bills, no church mortgages, no nurseries, no Easter Egg hunts, no Lent, no Christmas celebrations, no 'tithing', no seminaries...the list goes on and on.
No Mega-churches, no church campuses, no bus ministries, no youth pastors or teachers, no pizza parties, no trips to theme parks, no rock music. No church bulletins (by which the Holy Spirit is totally removed from any influence in the meetings), no large video or graphics screens, no p.a. systems...
No drunks, no sinners, no LBGTABC's, no altar (in the church, it isn't the altar that ministers to us, it the Throne of Grace, ministering to us from heaven), no spousal violence, nothing that could be considered a spot or blemish. Yes, the church ministers to the lost...but accepts only the saved. For there is no "Joining the Church", there is only being 'added to the church'.
In the New Testament, giving is for three reasons alone, 1) giving to the poor, 2) ministering to the saints, 3) for the work of the apostolic ministry. And it doesn't appear to be gathered by collection, for even Paul said he did not want any 'gatherings' when he came to church, but that every man was to lay by him in store, what he felt to give.
And on the first day of the week, the church met to observe the Lord's supper.
So how did Paul's apostolic ministry make it? Paul worked. So did members of his team, such as Aquila and Priscilla. The various churches procured gifts to send to the ministry (number 3 above), by which they helped to spread the gospel. But more importantly, they sent young members of their own church, to serve and to work with Paul in the apostolic 'work'.
Look at Revelation chapter ten, by way of closing...At verses 8-10,
"And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter..."
I heard no voice, save the small quiet voice of the Holy Spirit, urging me take the little book, The New Testament, and to eat it up. And I've eaten it up for nearly 60 years (I started reading the bible at age five, but as a discipline at age 25...I'm 64 now).
And yes, its sweetness in the mouth is addicting. I cannot go for more than a few minutes without reaching into my mind, into my spirit, and drawing forth the 'hidden manna' (Rev 2:17). Ever is there on me, on my person, a bible, whether paper, phone or tablet...
But after eating it, there is bitterness within. For I spend my days in horror at the condition of what we call the church. Can God accept what we're offering? And if He can't? An entire generation of Jews died in the wilderness because they didn't take in, learn and obey God's Word. Being a God of covenant, when the children of Israel failed to keep their part, when they distained God, it was required of God that they be tossed out of God's hand,
"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord." God forbid, that we should face one day, being 'disregarded' by God.
But, as Jesus said, "Every plant which my heavenly hath not planted, SHALL BE ROOTED UP". Matt 15:13.
God bless you,
I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ,
Julabee Jones
"church"=people assembly..not a building....the reason I found from my own personal experience is the assembly buildings, and their "preachers" are too regimented, and too much "preaching" and not enough "teaching"...that is what preachers should be teachers..not someone standing up on a raised platform, talking for an hour, and in the majority of case, talking about issues unrelated to the Bible, and if they talk about the Bible it is disjointed, and jumping around, with no apparent order. I have also found that they present their own doctrines, even though they conflict with the Bible. Although attending these assemblies gave me a start into a christian walk, it was missing something..so I began research, and prayer and found the truth in the Bible, very simple truth..not complicated like the mainstream "preachers" make it out to be...the words of Jesus in the Gospels are very clear..start by studying these and remembering them..then everything else starts to fall into place..His words are the whole basis for the New Covenant, and Salvation...Now my family and I celebrate and worship God at our own gathering, at home, and invite anyone who wants to attend with us for Bible study and worship. Matthew 18, Jesus said "where two or more are gathered in my name there I shall be also". We gather on the 7th day Sabbath in keeping with God's Holy ten Commandments (fourth Commandment)...finally I found the Christian spirituality I had been searching for many years...God bless us all!
It is simple almost to absurdity...
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 2 Cor 11:3.
Reading the Bible, hand in hand with the Holy Spirit, and the single, only one excuse one can have for error is plain, old fashioned everyday laziness...
For the promise that the Holy Spirit will lead us into truth, is as fresh today as it was the day Jesus gave it to us...
God Bless you!
I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ,
Julabee Jones
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 2 Cor 11:3.
Reading the Bible, hand in hand with the Holy Spirit, and the single, only one excuse one can have for error is plain, old fashioned everyday laziness...
For the promise that the Holy Spirit will lead us into truth, is as fresh today as it was the day Jesus gave it to us...
God Bless you!
I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ,
Julabee Jones
Rocky Wiley
Active Member
That fits Peter's principle,Julabee Jones said:
20% do the work, 80% do nothing. It's just as true about Christians as it is about anyone else.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I tend to believe that people have stopped going to church for multiple reasons:
1. Many ministers love the Bible more than their congregation.
2. Many ministers apply 2,000 year old cultural and moral standards to 21st century culture.
3. Many ministers preach against standards of worldliness suggested in the NT' but fail to include 21st century examples of worldliness - for example, harping on homosexuality to a congregation of materialistic consumerists.
4. Many clergy preach idealism rather than meeting people where they are at. Jesus ate with tax collectors - the Bible says nothing about them changing their careers.
5. Many clergy are antiscience, anti-intellectual, and fear-based. They tend to complicate the simple (gospel, which is loving outwardly) and simplify the complex - science, creation, the meaning of life, morality.
Yep - theses are some of the hard facts. All you have to do is look towards the fellowship found in other successful groups like AA and compare them to the cold / judgmentalism / idealism found in many churches today to see the truth
1. Many ministers love the Bible more than their congregation.
2. Many ministers apply 2,000 year old cultural and moral standards to 21st century culture.
3. Many ministers preach against standards of worldliness suggested in the NT' but fail to include 21st century examples of worldliness - for example, harping on homosexuality to a congregation of materialistic consumerists.
4. Many clergy preach idealism rather than meeting people where they are at. Jesus ate with tax collectors - the Bible says nothing about them changing their careers.
5. Many clergy are antiscience, anti-intellectual, and fear-based. They tend to complicate the simple (gospel, which is loving outwardly) and simplify the complex - science, creation, the meaning of life, morality.
Yep - theses are some of the hard facts. All you have to do is look towards the fellowship found in other successful groups like AA and compare them to the cold / judgmentalism / idealism found in many churches today to see the truth
Very important factor...does your "church" organization care about people? If homeless persons are by the door, do the people accept them and invite them in? Does it offer them something to eat and drink? Does it offer them a place to sleep?...if no then find another church organization to attend..for Jesus said "that which you have done for the least among you, you have done unto Me" Matthew 25
Sometimes a person cannot go to church because of abuse and the memories will never go away.
And so they seek and find God elsewhere.
While I will not confine this to the catholic church, it is just that these 2 stories are connected to the CC
1; as a child I had a neighbor who had the lovliest flower garden. He was a former C Priest who left the church forever due to the abuses he saw happen and he could not bear it anymore. He found God in His flowers and read the Bible and talked to God there.
2: my paternal grandfather was, as a young man, a deacon in the catholic church in Italy. He told of unspeakable things happening and left the church forever and would never set foot inside again for worship.
Sometimes the scars keep people away.
God is a merciful God and perhaps we can be too when it comes to what some just cannot do.
And so they seek and find God elsewhere.
While I will not confine this to the catholic church, it is just that these 2 stories are connected to the CC
1; as a child I had a neighbor who had the lovliest flower garden. He was a former C Priest who left the church forever due to the abuses he saw happen and he could not bear it anymore. He found God in His flowers and read the Bible and talked to God there.
2: my paternal grandfather was, as a young man, a deacon in the catholic church in Italy. He told of unspeakable things happening and left the church forever and would never set foot inside again for worship.
Sometimes the scars keep people away.
God is a merciful God and perhaps we can be too when it comes to what some just cannot do.
[Note. There are many godly people who attend church, and there are many positive things about attending church. Many people have discovered and accepted Christ in a church. This post is not putting down churches as far as a place to gather and hear the word of God, because it does not matter where one hears God's Truth, as long as they hear it! However, this post deals with the topic of "how" we are to worship God, and addresses the belief that one must worship God in a physical building called a church. There is a difference between going to a place to hear God's Word, and going to a place to worship God.]
Dear reader, did you know that there is no command in scripture which says that a believer in Christ must attend a church building in order to worship God? This is true. Also, there are no examples of any follower of Christ going to a church building to worship God. They worshipped God by their obedience to him in every area of life, every day of their lives. They did not worship him by giving only one hour of their time every week to some temple made with hands.
A "Church" is basically a temple made with hands. Does God dwell in temples made with hands? Scripture tells us:
Acts 7:48, "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"
Acts 17:24, "God...dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"
Keep in mind that the real question we seek to ask is not whether we are to worship, but how we are to worship. Perhaps the question is also where we are to do that. Are we able to do these things only in a building whose mortgage payments are being paid by a State-incorporated ecclesiastical institution, or may we obey them in our homes, or in a context of decentralized, informal, voluntary gatherings? The question before us is, need we "attend church?" Need we hear the "sermons" of special priests in order to obey the Biblical commands to exhort one another and discuss the Scriptures? Can we obey these commands if we only "attend church"?
Hebrews 10:25 gives a straightforward command: Do not forsake the gathering together of ourselves, and exhort one another. It would seem, then, that the question, "Is it our moral obligation to attend church?" receives a fairly straightforward answer: Of course! How, then, can somebody assert that one should not "attend church"?
The command in Hebrews 10:25 (namely, to "exhort one another") is also found in Hebrews 3:13, where it says we are to "exhort one another daily". If we claim to obey Hebrews 10:25 by "attending church" one day a week, do we also fulfill the command to exhort one another daily, when we see other believers only once a week?
Moreover, do we even obey the basic command to exhort one another when we simply listen to the polished oratory of a philosopher? Are we really obeying the Biblical commands concerning exhortation, community, and mutual accountability by once a week watching the performance of a seminary-trained entertainer?
Everyone who reads Hebrews 10:25 realizes that isolationism is contrary to God's Spirit. A family which locks its doors to people, withdraws from the world, and neglects the poor, which spends its time alone in reclusive introspection, is violating the clear commands of the Bible concerning hospitality and the communion of people.
But the real question is not whether believers should exhort one another daily, but whether it is required of believers to engage in a certain kind of meeting, with certain credentialed officers, to expose themselves to a specified ritual of acts which are called "attending church." Is this a scriptural command?
1. "Worship" is a service, not a ritual. Those who "attend church" and imitate Old Testament worship patterns generally neglect the New Testament commands to exhort one another daily (Hebrews 3:13; 10:24-25).
2. The Old Testament looks forward to the Age in which all men would worship God everywhere, and not just in that "place which the LORD your God shall choose" (Deuteronomy 12:11). The New Covenant priesthood is decentralized and universalized, not restricted to the "ordained" and the church traditions of men.
3. Exhortation is conversational, not sermonic. Preaching means dialogue, not a monologue. Rather than being equipped by New Testament-style exhortation and service, church-goers can become impotent and dependent upon a credentialed "professional" who engages in statism.
4. Fellowship is best accomplished in homes, not in pews. In "church" the "dignity" of priestly pomp and "worship" is substituted for the personal, house-to-house communion pictured in the Scriptures (Acts 2:46). A military-style symbol of a meal, and a view of the back of someone's head, are substituted for a genuine meal and a time of face-to-face fellowship.
These four points are very plainly at odds with most every church in the country. But the point is not simply to be different, nor to insult all other churches. The purpose is to analyze apparently "obvious" traditions in the light of the Scriptures (Acts 17:11).
The basic meaning of the word "worship" is service. To "worship" God is to put every area of one's life under the his law. Worship in the generic sense is the devotion we owe to God in the whole of life. God is sovereign, He is Lord, having sovereignty over us and propriety in us, and therefore in all that we do we owe subjection to him, devotion to his revealed will, obedience to his commandments. There is no area of life where the injunction does not apply (1 Corinthians 10:31). In view of the lordship of Christ as Mediator, all of life comes under his dominion (Colossians 3:23,24).
In the Old Testament there was also a more specific usage for "worship," namely, the observance of the ceremonial rituals. These ritual observances typified worship in every area of life. Animal sacrifice, the burning of incense, attendance at temple, and other rigors were imposed on the people of Israel, and were but shadows of the worship of the New Covenant.
Jesus spoke of the New Covenant form of worship in John 4. The woman at the well, having been confronted with the ethical demands of the Lord Jesus (regarding her adulterous life), attempts a "doctrinal" diversion: she asks Jesus about "worship." Putting words in Jesus' mouth, she claims that worship occurs in a certain place (John 4:20). Jesus denies that worship occurs in any place, and says, "true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth" (John 4:21-24).
In the common, specific sense, "worship" means attending to the ceremonial requirements of the Old Covenant, going to a certain place. But these acts only symbolized true "worship," and were necessary to prod a Spiritless people to that worship which means obedience to God in every area of life, in Spirit and in Truth.
Can you find one occurrence in the New Testament books of "worship" in the ceremonial/specific sense (going to a specific place to worship) being required of bondservants of Christ? The answer is no. Or are the occurrences of "worship" speaking of obedience in every area of life? The answer is yes. Do any of the Greek words used for "worship" occur in any sense requiring bondservants of Christ to go to Jerusalem, or to any specific "place" to "worship" God? No, they do not. Would we expect centralized ceremonial "worship" to be required today in light of the fact that Jews were doing this because the spirit of God was not yet given them (John 7:39)? In light of the fact that in the Old Testament, God only dwelt in temples made with hands because the Spirit was not yet inside of the people, but today, God says he does not dwell in temples made with hands, because the Spirit of God dwells within our bodies? If you "attend church," have you been trained to search the Scriptures to find the answers to such questions as these (Acts 17:11), or do you need to ask your "pastor"?
The Mosaic law commanded God's people to gather for worship and to hear God's word (Deuteronomy 12:5-12; 31:11-12). The Old Testament required travel to a centralized location to hear a special priesthood. The reason is that the Spirit was not yet given to the people under the Old Covenant, and since they had no Spirit to communicate with God, they had to go to a physical building and hear a physical priest to understand what God's Word was. Do we still have to hear God's Word from a special priesthood? Or does the Spirit of God dwell within us today? Compare these commands with Jesus' conversation with the woman at the well (John 4:20-24). Do we still go to Jerusalem? Must we listen to Moses or the priests to hear God's Word?
Obviously, we do not "bring an offering" or "come before him" in the same way we did in the Old Covenant. Nor do we "hear God's Word" by going to the typological temple and hearing a priest. Scripture says we are all priests now (1 Peter 2:5,9; Ephesians 2:19-22, Revelation 1:6; 5:10; Isaiah 61:6), and God's word has gone out through all the world (Romans 1:8; 10:18; Colossians 1:6,23).
Old Covenant believers would be astonished at the scope of publication of God's word in our day. This is guided by the powerful work of the Holy Spirit himself. Thus, publishers should labor as priests under God, and see their work as having great and special Spiritual significance.
This massive outpouring of Truth works to enable every believer-priest to know and study God's word and to proclaim it to his neighbors. And it all takes place outside the walls of institutional churches. In fact, the "church" has historically opposed the free dissemination of Scripture and its exposition. The Roman Catholic Church burned Christians at the stake for doing this.
All of this should be understood as the true Spiritual meaning of the Old Testament prophecies. Joel 2:28 is an example of how the world-wide decentralized spread of the gospel was spoken of by the prophets. Similarly did Moses speak, when he prayed that God would make all of his people prophets and preachers (Numbers 11:29). Acts 2:17 is a fulfillment of Joel 2:28, when the Holy Spirit was finally given to his people. So you see, we are all prophets, priests, and kings today (Isaiah 61:6; 1 Peter 2:5,9; Revelation 1:6; 5:10).
Thus, no building can be said to be the place to worship simply because of the presence of the special "ordained" priests. Every Believer is a Priest. We need not "go to Jerusalem", or to a "temple made with hands" (Acts 7:48; 17:24). This is why, when Jesus died, and confirmed the New Testament, the physical temple was rent in half (Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:34). This is why New Testament believers worship "from house to house", in homes (Acts 2:46), and not in temples made with hands.
Churches commonly quote Acts 20:7 as a precedent for Church worship, but the whole impression of Acts 20:7 is rather that of a family meeting together in a home than of a modern congregation met in a church. "Family" meaning a group of believers and friends. Is it possible that we may have lost the sense of the congregation as a real family in God?
Psalm 22:22 is also quoted, and it is cited in Hebrews 2:12, as referring to Christ. How does Christ stand in the midst of his congregation and declare his name? Only in certain buildings at certain times? Matthew 18:20 spells doom for those who would so assert: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." His presence with us is through the Comforter, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), who fulfills Moses' wish that we could all be prophets and not have to be dependent upon special priests to teach us (1 John 2:27). God's Presence is not localized "in temples made with hands" (Acts 7:48; 17:24). Our body is now the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells within us (1 Corinthians 3:9,16,17; 6:19-20, Ephesians 2:20-22), just like Jesus referred to his own body as a temple (Mark 14:58, John 2:19-21). And as believers exercise dominion over the entire globe, Christ is correspondingly present (Matthew 28:18,20).
Does Scripture require this "special" place of worship in addition to "everywhere"? One of the burdens of the first century was the corrupt worship among the Jews, and scripture says in God's advent, that will be replaced with pure worship among the Gentiles in every place (Malachi 1:11; 3:3-4). Worship would no longer be limited or tied to Jerusalem, or to the outward shadows of the Old Covenant, or to a centralized Church. Because once the Holy Spirit is given, shadows are no longer necessary.
How do we worship God in the New Covenant? Do we need an institutional priesthood? Must we journey to a certain centralized location? Must we "attend church"? It is virtually implied that those who do not "worship" in a certain place (subordinate to a priest) do not believe in "assembling" together, or with any appreciation of the Community we have in Christ. This is false. The question is not, "Are we to 'gather together'"?, but rather "How are we to 'gather together'"?
The Judaizers told believers in Christ that unless they observed the ceremonial requirements of the Old Covenant they weren't being faithful. Their purpose was not to make obedient patriarchs out of the new converts, but to gain power over them (Galatians 2:4).
We should not localize God:
Acts 7:49, "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?"
1 Kings 8:27, "…behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?"
Believers are to Preach God's word (2 Timothy 4:2; Acts 20:7-9; 1 Timothy 4:6-16). Also mentioned is "exhort" and "teach" in these verses. Far more significant, however, is the entire notion of "preaching". There were no one-man lectures (monologues) in the early Church until Greek philosophy was imported into the Church. The traveling philosophers (peripatetics) were popular in the Greco-Roman world, and were too easily imitated among believers. What passes for "preaching" in our day has absolutely no Biblical warrant. Nowhere in the New Testament is there an example of a "sermon" in Jesus Christ's assemblies.
We need to emphasize this point. If the Apostle Paul were invited into one of our meetings and saw only one man give an oration patterned after the Greek philosophers of his day, with absolutely no interaction with the "laymen," Paul would demand to know "What's going on here?" This modern pattern bears no resemblance to the New Testament pattern, although it is unwittingly patterned after ancient Greek itinerant moralists. The "sermon" is an unscriptural tradition, imported from Greco-Roman paganism. Some preachers, of course, fail to meet even the standards of the Greek philosophers. Their "preaching" is pure entertainment.
Acts 20 is used to establish many modern practices of the church, and yet it supports none of them. Consider "preaching." The Greek word for "preach" in Acts 20:7,9 is word #1256, dialegomai: it's a "dialogue" not a "monologue." Dialegomai means "to converse, discourse with one, argue, discuss". It comes from the word "di" which means "a combining form meaning 'two', 'double'." We do not have "dialogue and discussion" in most "churches," and therefore do not obey Acts 20:7. Does the church really believe that Paul gave an uninterrupted lecture -- for twelve hours?!? Dialegomai is also translated as "reasoned" in Acts 17:2, where Paul "reasoned" in the synagogue out of the scriptures. Paul "reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath" (Acts 18:4,19). In church, the preacher doesn't "reason" with anybody, but simply talks with no chance of interaction with those in the audience. Dialegomai is also translated as "disputed" in Acts 17:17, where Paul "disputed he in the synagogue", and in Acts 19:8 where he was "disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God." In Church, the pastor does not give anyone the chance to "dispute" or "question" him. Is this biblical?
For now, note the inescapable fact that there simply was no "preaching" or "sermon" as we popularly conceive it today. When we proclaim the gospel to our neighbor, we engage in "official and professional instruction" as priest-kings of Christ! The gates of hell are assaulted and overcome by our "informal discussion". Modern churches have replaced the discussion and animated conversation of the New Testament with "sermons," an invention of the Greeks, and a man-made tradition.
As a result, I cannot obey the Scriptural commands as cited in 1 Corinthians 14:26,31 when I "attend church"; I cannot edify and prophesy. Neither can I obey 1 Timothy 4:13 and 2 Timothy 4:2 when I "attend church"; I cannot exhort, I cannot "teach", except through hymns (but not of my choosing). Only one person exhorts in a "church"; the whole congregation violates Hebrews 10:24-25, at least when they are "attending church." Perhaps they obey these commands later in the afternoon, when in colloquial discussion they bring all thoughts captive to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5), but certainly not during Church services.
While the Apostle could claim to be a "steward of the mysteries of God" (1 Corinthians 4:1), we wonder what Churches mean when they claim the same thing for themselves, after the age of the Apostles, and denying the duty to all other ("non-ordained") believers. Perhaps they dispense mysteries only when speaking ex cathedra. No, surely whenever any believer shares the word of God with another, he dispenses mysteries in the same sense as the churchmen might legitimately claim for themselves.
It seems that church preachers are sometimes not as interested in exalting the apostles or the gospel as much as their own ecclesiastical power. This seems to be a fairly significant issue, one that underlies the issue of preaching and this entire post: The ecclesiocrat works to "mystify" his "office." He wants a "mystique" to surround his position. He seeks not to exalt the word of God so much as to intimidate and impress the "laity." Many are unable to think of the work of the elder as attainable, practical, or understandable, because it is invested with an aura of mystery. The every-day function of nurturing younger believers and watching over them, concerned for their spiritual growth, is converted into a high and lofty ecclesiastical "office" resembling an inscrutable, occultic link between god and man. Rather than rooted in Biblical Law and practical competence therein, this ecclesiocentric authority is esoteric, shrouded in mystery.
In the priesthood of all believers, all believers can strive to be mature, wise, and Godly. In denominational churches, the "uninitiated" can never be "mysterious." They are qualitatively (not just quantitatively) inferior. "Religion" is thus removed, and the rest of us must read Ann Landers for "practical" guidance the rest of the week.
In sharp contrast to this mentality, the Bible wants us to think of every believer as one who must dispense divine mysteries (Isaiah 61:6; 66:20-23; 1 Peter 2:9). In fact, the "mystery" which was hidden in the Old Covenant is the fact that all men shall be a part of God's Kingdom of priests, and they shall function fully, obediently, and spontaneously (Ephesians 2, Revelation 1:6; 1 Peter 2:5,9; Hebrews 8:8-12) without the rigors of the Old Covenant ceremonial priesthood (Colossians 1:26-27; Ephesians 1:9-10; 3:5-6; Galatians 3:19 - 4:11) and without fear of the principalities and powers which held sway over the nations during the Old Covenant (Revelation 20:1-3). Everyone engages in an extremely significant and special act when they bring the word of God to bear on a neighbor's problems. The New Testament tells us that this conversation has cosmic significance; the very gates of hell itself are pulled down and Christ's Kingship extended (2 Corinthians 10:4-5; 1 Corinthians 15:24-25). By virtue of our priestly and kingly office, it is an act of official and professional instruction, and yet this shepherding of another believer or this preaching to an unsaved neighbor should be an "ordinary," every-day occurrence. The hocus-pocus of a clerical religionist is not demanded.
The Godly father does not dangle fatherhood over his son's head as an unattainable "mystery." He seeks to display and explain fatherhood, helping his son to become a Godly father. The Godly "Pastor" does not mystify himself or an ecclesiastical position of power. He models a life of service and obedience to Biblical Law in a practical way, demystifying competence and Godliness so that it might be imitated by all (1 Peter 5:1-3).
To say that we are violating Scripture unless we also "attend church" in the building of an ecclesiastical corporation with a credentialed seminary graduate in the spotlight, is simply preposterous, a remnant of Roman Catholic teaching. There is not a shred of evidence to support such an ecclesiastical requirement, and the whole of Scripture seems to go against it. The movement in the Bible is away from ceremony and limited special priesthood, and toward decentralization, an every-believer priesthood, and a return to direct communication with God through his Spirit.
Our failure as believers to implement this truth comes from our friendship with the world, and conformity thereto (Romans 12:1-2; James 4:4). It seems strange to us to think of a household communion. In our culture, Grandparents live in their own house, Aunts and Uncles are likewise separated from their Nieces and Nephews, and it is "trendy" for children to move out of their parents' house as soon as they possibly can. In our day "the Family" has been described as one or two working parents and (maybe) 2.2 children (recently down to 1.8).
If we were to take a first-century believer (or even a modern-day member of a number of non-western cultures) up into an airplane over Southern California, and showed them city after city of single-family dwellings, all packed in like sardines, row after row, with parents in one house, children in another, grandparents in another, aunts and uncles in still another, and the poor and homeless wasting away in the abandoned section of industrial parks and urban ghettoes (where the suburban dwellers have coercively zoned them) our passenger would cry. Then he might become enraged: "This is sick! This is an abomination! I could never have imagined such atomism and selfish isolationism!" Little does he know that even among those houses where parents and children dwell together, it is little more than a motel, with students and commuters simply dropping in to sleep at night. In this land there is no property -- genuine property -- over which fruitful, honest dominion can be exercised unhindered by banks or landlords. It is a nation of slaves. Where in our land is an Abraham, with hundreds of adopted children, hundreds of domestic apprentices, hundreds of the poor and needy receiving shelter, hundreds of illiterate orphans being educated and brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and several generations of Family in blessed contact and harmonious community? Well, if we believe the churchmen, that ideal is clearly unattainable: we live in the New Covenant, and we do not have the Spiritual resources which Abraham had under the Old Covenant. Right?
Does Ephesians 5:19 - 6:24 command anything that cannot be fulfilled in "informal" Family-gatherings? The idea of Family communion is in our (atomistic, self-centered) day rightly ridiculed. We are not Patriarchs; we are children. How we cherish the churchmen, who only require us to "worship" in their church one day each week, and then dismiss us to watch our TV's in isolated silence.
We should always be conscious of Christ's presence "where two or three are gathered in My Name." Whenever we obey the command to assemble together for praising God, Scripture reading and study, exhortation and comfort, prayer and singing, and remembering the Lord's death in the communal meal, we are clearly engaging in a very special activity.
Remember, the "Church" does not save anybody, only our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ can save us (John 3:17; 10:9, Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:31, Romans 10:9,13).
-- Brother Richard
Dear reader, did you know that there is no command in scripture which says that a believer in Christ must attend a church building in order to worship God? This is true. Also, there are no examples of any follower of Christ going to a church building to worship God. They worshipped God by their obedience to him in every area of life, every day of their lives. They did not worship him by giving only one hour of their time every week to some temple made with hands.
A "Church" is basically a temple made with hands. Does God dwell in temples made with hands? Scripture tells us:
Acts 7:48, "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"
Acts 17:24, "God...dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"
Keep in mind that the real question we seek to ask is not whether we are to worship, but how we are to worship. Perhaps the question is also where we are to do that. Are we able to do these things only in a building whose mortgage payments are being paid by a State-incorporated ecclesiastical institution, or may we obey them in our homes, or in a context of decentralized, informal, voluntary gatherings? The question before us is, need we "attend church?" Need we hear the "sermons" of special priests in order to obey the Biblical commands to exhort one another and discuss the Scriptures? Can we obey these commands if we only "attend church"?
Hebrews 10:25 gives a straightforward command: Do not forsake the gathering together of ourselves, and exhort one another. It would seem, then, that the question, "Is it our moral obligation to attend church?" receives a fairly straightforward answer: Of course! How, then, can somebody assert that one should not "attend church"?
The command in Hebrews 10:25 (namely, to "exhort one another") is also found in Hebrews 3:13, where it says we are to "exhort one another daily". If we claim to obey Hebrews 10:25 by "attending church" one day a week, do we also fulfill the command to exhort one another daily, when we see other believers only once a week?
Moreover, do we even obey the basic command to exhort one another when we simply listen to the polished oratory of a philosopher? Are we really obeying the Biblical commands concerning exhortation, community, and mutual accountability by once a week watching the performance of a seminary-trained entertainer?
Everyone who reads Hebrews 10:25 realizes that isolationism is contrary to God's Spirit. A family which locks its doors to people, withdraws from the world, and neglects the poor, which spends its time alone in reclusive introspection, is violating the clear commands of the Bible concerning hospitality and the communion of people.
But the real question is not whether believers should exhort one another daily, but whether it is required of believers to engage in a certain kind of meeting, with certain credentialed officers, to expose themselves to a specified ritual of acts which are called "attending church." Is this a scriptural command?
1. "Worship" is a service, not a ritual. Those who "attend church" and imitate Old Testament worship patterns generally neglect the New Testament commands to exhort one another daily (Hebrews 3:13; 10:24-25).
2. The Old Testament looks forward to the Age in which all men would worship God everywhere, and not just in that "place which the LORD your God shall choose" (Deuteronomy 12:11). The New Covenant priesthood is decentralized and universalized, not restricted to the "ordained" and the church traditions of men.
3. Exhortation is conversational, not sermonic. Preaching means dialogue, not a monologue. Rather than being equipped by New Testament-style exhortation and service, church-goers can become impotent and dependent upon a credentialed "professional" who engages in statism.
4. Fellowship is best accomplished in homes, not in pews. In "church" the "dignity" of priestly pomp and "worship" is substituted for the personal, house-to-house communion pictured in the Scriptures (Acts 2:46). A military-style symbol of a meal, and a view of the back of someone's head, are substituted for a genuine meal and a time of face-to-face fellowship.
These four points are very plainly at odds with most every church in the country. But the point is not simply to be different, nor to insult all other churches. The purpose is to analyze apparently "obvious" traditions in the light of the Scriptures (Acts 17:11).
The basic meaning of the word "worship" is service. To "worship" God is to put every area of one's life under the his law. Worship in the generic sense is the devotion we owe to God in the whole of life. God is sovereign, He is Lord, having sovereignty over us and propriety in us, and therefore in all that we do we owe subjection to him, devotion to his revealed will, obedience to his commandments. There is no area of life where the injunction does not apply (1 Corinthians 10:31). In view of the lordship of Christ as Mediator, all of life comes under his dominion (Colossians 3:23,24).
In the Old Testament there was also a more specific usage for "worship," namely, the observance of the ceremonial rituals. These ritual observances typified worship in every area of life. Animal sacrifice, the burning of incense, attendance at temple, and other rigors were imposed on the people of Israel, and were but shadows of the worship of the New Covenant.
Jesus spoke of the New Covenant form of worship in John 4. The woman at the well, having been confronted with the ethical demands of the Lord Jesus (regarding her adulterous life), attempts a "doctrinal" diversion: she asks Jesus about "worship." Putting words in Jesus' mouth, she claims that worship occurs in a certain place (John 4:20). Jesus denies that worship occurs in any place, and says, "true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth" (John 4:21-24).
In the common, specific sense, "worship" means attending to the ceremonial requirements of the Old Covenant, going to a certain place. But these acts only symbolized true "worship," and were necessary to prod a Spiritless people to that worship which means obedience to God in every area of life, in Spirit and in Truth.
Can you find one occurrence in the New Testament books of "worship" in the ceremonial/specific sense (going to a specific place to worship) being required of bondservants of Christ? The answer is no. Or are the occurrences of "worship" speaking of obedience in every area of life? The answer is yes. Do any of the Greek words used for "worship" occur in any sense requiring bondservants of Christ to go to Jerusalem, or to any specific "place" to "worship" God? No, they do not. Would we expect centralized ceremonial "worship" to be required today in light of the fact that Jews were doing this because the spirit of God was not yet given them (John 7:39)? In light of the fact that in the Old Testament, God only dwelt in temples made with hands because the Spirit was not yet inside of the people, but today, God says he does not dwell in temples made with hands, because the Spirit of God dwells within our bodies? If you "attend church," have you been trained to search the Scriptures to find the answers to such questions as these (Acts 17:11), or do you need to ask your "pastor"?
The Mosaic law commanded God's people to gather for worship and to hear God's word (Deuteronomy 12:5-12; 31:11-12). The Old Testament required travel to a centralized location to hear a special priesthood. The reason is that the Spirit was not yet given to the people under the Old Covenant, and since they had no Spirit to communicate with God, they had to go to a physical building and hear a physical priest to understand what God's Word was. Do we still have to hear God's Word from a special priesthood? Or does the Spirit of God dwell within us today? Compare these commands with Jesus' conversation with the woman at the well (John 4:20-24). Do we still go to Jerusalem? Must we listen to Moses or the priests to hear God's Word?
Obviously, we do not "bring an offering" or "come before him" in the same way we did in the Old Covenant. Nor do we "hear God's Word" by going to the typological temple and hearing a priest. Scripture says we are all priests now (1 Peter 2:5,9; Ephesians 2:19-22, Revelation 1:6; 5:10; Isaiah 61:6), and God's word has gone out through all the world (Romans 1:8; 10:18; Colossians 1:6,23).
Old Covenant believers would be astonished at the scope of publication of God's word in our day. This is guided by the powerful work of the Holy Spirit himself. Thus, publishers should labor as priests under God, and see their work as having great and special Spiritual significance.
This massive outpouring of Truth works to enable every believer-priest to know and study God's word and to proclaim it to his neighbors. And it all takes place outside the walls of institutional churches. In fact, the "church" has historically opposed the free dissemination of Scripture and its exposition. The Roman Catholic Church burned Christians at the stake for doing this.
All of this should be understood as the true Spiritual meaning of the Old Testament prophecies. Joel 2:28 is an example of how the world-wide decentralized spread of the gospel was spoken of by the prophets. Similarly did Moses speak, when he prayed that God would make all of his people prophets and preachers (Numbers 11:29). Acts 2:17 is a fulfillment of Joel 2:28, when the Holy Spirit was finally given to his people. So you see, we are all prophets, priests, and kings today (Isaiah 61:6; 1 Peter 2:5,9; Revelation 1:6; 5:10).
Thus, no building can be said to be the place to worship simply because of the presence of the special "ordained" priests. Every Believer is a Priest. We need not "go to Jerusalem", or to a "temple made with hands" (Acts 7:48; 17:24). This is why, when Jesus died, and confirmed the New Testament, the physical temple was rent in half (Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:34). This is why New Testament believers worship "from house to house", in homes (Acts 2:46), and not in temples made with hands.
Churches commonly quote Acts 20:7 as a precedent for Church worship, but the whole impression of Acts 20:7 is rather that of a family meeting together in a home than of a modern congregation met in a church. "Family" meaning a group of believers and friends. Is it possible that we may have lost the sense of the congregation as a real family in God?
Psalm 22:22 is also quoted, and it is cited in Hebrews 2:12, as referring to Christ. How does Christ stand in the midst of his congregation and declare his name? Only in certain buildings at certain times? Matthew 18:20 spells doom for those who would so assert: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." His presence with us is through the Comforter, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), who fulfills Moses' wish that we could all be prophets and not have to be dependent upon special priests to teach us (1 John 2:27). God's Presence is not localized "in temples made with hands" (Acts 7:48; 17:24). Our body is now the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells within us (1 Corinthians 3:9,16,17; 6:19-20, Ephesians 2:20-22), just like Jesus referred to his own body as a temple (Mark 14:58, John 2:19-21). And as believers exercise dominion over the entire globe, Christ is correspondingly present (Matthew 28:18,20).
Does Scripture require this "special" place of worship in addition to "everywhere"? One of the burdens of the first century was the corrupt worship among the Jews, and scripture says in God's advent, that will be replaced with pure worship among the Gentiles in every place (Malachi 1:11; 3:3-4). Worship would no longer be limited or tied to Jerusalem, or to the outward shadows of the Old Covenant, or to a centralized Church. Because once the Holy Spirit is given, shadows are no longer necessary.
How do we worship God in the New Covenant? Do we need an institutional priesthood? Must we journey to a certain centralized location? Must we "attend church"? It is virtually implied that those who do not "worship" in a certain place (subordinate to a priest) do not believe in "assembling" together, or with any appreciation of the Community we have in Christ. This is false. The question is not, "Are we to 'gather together'"?, but rather "How are we to 'gather together'"?
The Judaizers told believers in Christ that unless they observed the ceremonial requirements of the Old Covenant they weren't being faithful. Their purpose was not to make obedient patriarchs out of the new converts, but to gain power over them (Galatians 2:4).
We should not localize God:
Acts 7:49, "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?"
1 Kings 8:27, "…behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?"
Believers are to Preach God's word (2 Timothy 4:2; Acts 20:7-9; 1 Timothy 4:6-16). Also mentioned is "exhort" and "teach" in these verses. Far more significant, however, is the entire notion of "preaching". There were no one-man lectures (monologues) in the early Church until Greek philosophy was imported into the Church. The traveling philosophers (peripatetics) were popular in the Greco-Roman world, and were too easily imitated among believers. What passes for "preaching" in our day has absolutely no Biblical warrant. Nowhere in the New Testament is there an example of a "sermon" in Jesus Christ's assemblies.
We need to emphasize this point. If the Apostle Paul were invited into one of our meetings and saw only one man give an oration patterned after the Greek philosophers of his day, with absolutely no interaction with the "laymen," Paul would demand to know "What's going on here?" This modern pattern bears no resemblance to the New Testament pattern, although it is unwittingly patterned after ancient Greek itinerant moralists. The "sermon" is an unscriptural tradition, imported from Greco-Roman paganism. Some preachers, of course, fail to meet even the standards of the Greek philosophers. Their "preaching" is pure entertainment.
Acts 20 is used to establish many modern practices of the church, and yet it supports none of them. Consider "preaching." The Greek word for "preach" in Acts 20:7,9 is word #1256, dialegomai: it's a "dialogue" not a "monologue." Dialegomai means "to converse, discourse with one, argue, discuss". It comes from the word "di" which means "a combining form meaning 'two', 'double'." We do not have "dialogue and discussion" in most "churches," and therefore do not obey Acts 20:7. Does the church really believe that Paul gave an uninterrupted lecture -- for twelve hours?!? Dialegomai is also translated as "reasoned" in Acts 17:2, where Paul "reasoned" in the synagogue out of the scriptures. Paul "reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath" (Acts 18:4,19). In church, the preacher doesn't "reason" with anybody, but simply talks with no chance of interaction with those in the audience. Dialegomai is also translated as "disputed" in Acts 17:17, where Paul "disputed he in the synagogue", and in Acts 19:8 where he was "disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God." In Church, the pastor does not give anyone the chance to "dispute" or "question" him. Is this biblical?
For now, note the inescapable fact that there simply was no "preaching" or "sermon" as we popularly conceive it today. When we proclaim the gospel to our neighbor, we engage in "official and professional instruction" as priest-kings of Christ! The gates of hell are assaulted and overcome by our "informal discussion". Modern churches have replaced the discussion and animated conversation of the New Testament with "sermons," an invention of the Greeks, and a man-made tradition.
As a result, I cannot obey the Scriptural commands as cited in 1 Corinthians 14:26,31 when I "attend church"; I cannot edify and prophesy. Neither can I obey 1 Timothy 4:13 and 2 Timothy 4:2 when I "attend church"; I cannot exhort, I cannot "teach", except through hymns (but not of my choosing). Only one person exhorts in a "church"; the whole congregation violates Hebrews 10:24-25, at least when they are "attending church." Perhaps they obey these commands later in the afternoon, when in colloquial discussion they bring all thoughts captive to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5), but certainly not during Church services.
While the Apostle could claim to be a "steward of the mysteries of God" (1 Corinthians 4:1), we wonder what Churches mean when they claim the same thing for themselves, after the age of the Apostles, and denying the duty to all other ("non-ordained") believers. Perhaps they dispense mysteries only when speaking ex cathedra. No, surely whenever any believer shares the word of God with another, he dispenses mysteries in the same sense as the churchmen might legitimately claim for themselves.
It seems that church preachers are sometimes not as interested in exalting the apostles or the gospel as much as their own ecclesiastical power. This seems to be a fairly significant issue, one that underlies the issue of preaching and this entire post: The ecclesiocrat works to "mystify" his "office." He wants a "mystique" to surround his position. He seeks not to exalt the word of God so much as to intimidate and impress the "laity." Many are unable to think of the work of the elder as attainable, practical, or understandable, because it is invested with an aura of mystery. The every-day function of nurturing younger believers and watching over them, concerned for their spiritual growth, is converted into a high and lofty ecclesiastical "office" resembling an inscrutable, occultic link between god and man. Rather than rooted in Biblical Law and practical competence therein, this ecclesiocentric authority is esoteric, shrouded in mystery.
In the priesthood of all believers, all believers can strive to be mature, wise, and Godly. In denominational churches, the "uninitiated" can never be "mysterious." They are qualitatively (not just quantitatively) inferior. "Religion" is thus removed, and the rest of us must read Ann Landers for "practical" guidance the rest of the week.
In sharp contrast to this mentality, the Bible wants us to think of every believer as one who must dispense divine mysteries (Isaiah 61:6; 66:20-23; 1 Peter 2:9). In fact, the "mystery" which was hidden in the Old Covenant is the fact that all men shall be a part of God's Kingdom of priests, and they shall function fully, obediently, and spontaneously (Ephesians 2, Revelation 1:6; 1 Peter 2:5,9; Hebrews 8:8-12) without the rigors of the Old Covenant ceremonial priesthood (Colossians 1:26-27; Ephesians 1:9-10; 3:5-6; Galatians 3:19 - 4:11) and without fear of the principalities and powers which held sway over the nations during the Old Covenant (Revelation 20:1-3). Everyone engages in an extremely significant and special act when they bring the word of God to bear on a neighbor's problems. The New Testament tells us that this conversation has cosmic significance; the very gates of hell itself are pulled down and Christ's Kingship extended (2 Corinthians 10:4-5; 1 Corinthians 15:24-25). By virtue of our priestly and kingly office, it is an act of official and professional instruction, and yet this shepherding of another believer or this preaching to an unsaved neighbor should be an "ordinary," every-day occurrence. The hocus-pocus of a clerical religionist is not demanded.
The Godly father does not dangle fatherhood over his son's head as an unattainable "mystery." He seeks to display and explain fatherhood, helping his son to become a Godly father. The Godly "Pastor" does not mystify himself or an ecclesiastical position of power. He models a life of service and obedience to Biblical Law in a practical way, demystifying competence and Godliness so that it might be imitated by all (1 Peter 5:1-3).
To say that we are violating Scripture unless we also "attend church" in the building of an ecclesiastical corporation with a credentialed seminary graduate in the spotlight, is simply preposterous, a remnant of Roman Catholic teaching. There is not a shred of evidence to support such an ecclesiastical requirement, and the whole of Scripture seems to go against it. The movement in the Bible is away from ceremony and limited special priesthood, and toward decentralization, an every-believer priesthood, and a return to direct communication with God through his Spirit.
Our failure as believers to implement this truth comes from our friendship with the world, and conformity thereto (Romans 12:1-2; James 4:4). It seems strange to us to think of a household communion. In our culture, Grandparents live in their own house, Aunts and Uncles are likewise separated from their Nieces and Nephews, and it is "trendy" for children to move out of their parents' house as soon as they possibly can. In our day "the Family" has been described as one or two working parents and (maybe) 2.2 children (recently down to 1.8).
If we were to take a first-century believer (or even a modern-day member of a number of non-western cultures) up into an airplane over Southern California, and showed them city after city of single-family dwellings, all packed in like sardines, row after row, with parents in one house, children in another, grandparents in another, aunts and uncles in still another, and the poor and homeless wasting away in the abandoned section of industrial parks and urban ghettoes (where the suburban dwellers have coercively zoned them) our passenger would cry. Then he might become enraged: "This is sick! This is an abomination! I could never have imagined such atomism and selfish isolationism!" Little does he know that even among those houses where parents and children dwell together, it is little more than a motel, with students and commuters simply dropping in to sleep at night. In this land there is no property -- genuine property -- over which fruitful, honest dominion can be exercised unhindered by banks or landlords. It is a nation of slaves. Where in our land is an Abraham, with hundreds of adopted children, hundreds of domestic apprentices, hundreds of the poor and needy receiving shelter, hundreds of illiterate orphans being educated and brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and several generations of Family in blessed contact and harmonious community? Well, if we believe the churchmen, that ideal is clearly unattainable: we live in the New Covenant, and we do not have the Spiritual resources which Abraham had under the Old Covenant. Right?
Does Ephesians 5:19 - 6:24 command anything that cannot be fulfilled in "informal" Family-gatherings? The idea of Family communion is in our (atomistic, self-centered) day rightly ridiculed. We are not Patriarchs; we are children. How we cherish the churchmen, who only require us to "worship" in their church one day each week, and then dismiss us to watch our TV's in isolated silence.
We should always be conscious of Christ's presence "where two or three are gathered in My Name." Whenever we obey the command to assemble together for praising God, Scripture reading and study, exhortation and comfort, prayer and singing, and remembering the Lord's death in the communal meal, we are clearly engaging in a very special activity.
Remember, the "Church" does not save anybody, only our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ can save us (John 3:17; 10:9, Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:31, Romans 10:9,13).
-- Brother Richard
The biggest reason is offense ...
I'm offended that the Pastor didn't greet me.
I'm offended that they didn't promote me.
I'm offended they promoted so and so.
I'm offended with brother doodah and sister bucket mouth.
I'm offended that they told me to move my car, seat etc.
I'm offended that they went on tooooo long about money.
I'm offended that they aren't using me.
I'm offended that they use me too much.
I'm offended with God for not answering my prayer.
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm offended that the Pastor didn't greet me.
I'm offended that they didn't promote me.
I'm offended they promoted so and so.
I'm offended with brother doodah and sister bucket mouth.
I'm offended that they told me to move my car, seat etc.
I'm offended that they went on tooooo long about money.
I'm offended that they aren't using me.
I'm offended that they use me too much.
I'm offended with God for not answering my prayer.
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Born_Again
Well-Known Member
I don't attend church. However my faith is strong and I walk very closely with the Lord. I can guarantee Satan doesn't have chance 1. I don't go because I had a disagreement with my last church. I want to make sure that if I chose to go to another church they are in line with the correct teachings and values. Do they spread the right message of faith, compassion, and love? So many times I have seen churches become more of a tool to banish non-believers rather than love them and testify to them. All to often the church misses the true nature and teachings of Christ. At no point should a church ask someone to leave. What ever happened to WWJD? Is that application no longer "Cool"?RANDOR said:
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
For those of you and others of the same mindset who believe that those who do not attend so called "church" are rebels and backsliding are in fact some of the most spiritual in the fellowship. Research shows that a common response is "there has to be more to christianity than this." The failure of too many churches is that unless you are so called "ordained" you are not qualified to fulfill any major ministry. That is the province of those who have [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]denominationally[/SIZE] approved qualifications.
So these non ordained people [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]who[/SIZE] may be very successful in the secular world, managing thousands of people and multi million dollar budgets are not considered spiritual enough to take a [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]major[/SIZE] role in the church because they haven't got a [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]Bachelor's[/SIZE] degree in theology. They have a masters degree in life and maybe a Ph.D in some secular discipline and they manage their household well and they are a success in the eyes of the world, but it seems the church [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]would[/SIZE] rather have a pastor who has a degree in theology and a foul temper rather than someone who has succeeded in everything they do but are degreeless theologically.
[SIZE=18.6666564941406px]What[/SIZE] that means is that the person who has succeeded at life has to sit and listen to someone who knows little of what life is all about because they have gone from school to bible college to ministry and have never held a job of any kind outside of the church. So they leave the church and set up a christian fellowship in their workplace and because of their character and integrity they bring many to Christ, whilst the pastor might be lucky to bring one to Christ despite all their preaching and activity. (I am citing from real life here).
But of course the business leader's workplace church is not recognised because it is not held in a religious [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]building[/SIZE] on Sunday and it doesn't have paid clergy.
Whilst religious church leaders [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]persist[/SIZE] in their non biblical methodology, they can't expect God to [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]build[/SIZE] their church as he said he would build his own , not theirs.
So these non ordained people [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]who[/SIZE] may be very successful in the secular world, managing thousands of people and multi million dollar budgets are not considered spiritual enough to take a [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]major[/SIZE] role in the church because they haven't got a [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]Bachelor's[/SIZE] degree in theology. They have a masters degree in life and maybe a Ph.D in some secular discipline and they manage their household well and they are a success in the eyes of the world, but it seems the church [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]would[/SIZE] rather have a pastor who has a degree in theology and a foul temper rather than someone who has succeeded in everything they do but are degreeless theologically.
[SIZE=18.6666564941406px]What[/SIZE] that means is that the person who has succeeded at life has to sit and listen to someone who knows little of what life is all about because they have gone from school to bible college to ministry and have never held a job of any kind outside of the church. So they leave the church and set up a christian fellowship in their workplace and because of their character and integrity they bring many to Christ, whilst the pastor might be lucky to bring one to Christ despite all their preaching and activity. (I am citing from real life here).
But of course the business leader's workplace church is not recognised because it is not held in a religious [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]building[/SIZE] on Sunday and it doesn't have paid clergy.
Whilst religious church leaders [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]persist[/SIZE] in their non biblical methodology, they can't expect God to [SIZE=18.6666564941406px]build[/SIZE] their church as he said he would build his own , not theirs.
Born_Again
Well-Known Member
@ marksman ... I agree with you, any fellowship/church outside of the institutionalised "church" is not recognised
by the "church".
BUT, that does not mean that God does not recognise it, rest assured that if it is successful God has in all probability
called it into being and placed his blessing upon it.
Did Peter and John begin their ministry from within the "institutionalised church" or not ? .... No.
When evangelists go out into countryside to villages etc., there are more often times than not no "church" in the vicinity
so does what they do count anything less and have no value in God's eyes ? ... of course not.
Take a look at the underground church in China, are they institutionalised ... No
Does this make what they're doing anything less than what we might do in a building ? ... No.
If this is you that has started a church within your realm or sphere of influence you can guarantee it that you have been
called as an evangelist.
Church is not a building, but you already know that.
Church is where two or three are gathered together in his name as Jesus said because He is in your midst.
All believers are part of the body of Christ not only those who go to the "building".
The call to "not forsake the gathering together of the brethren" in Hebrews 10:25 is a call to not become isolated.
It does not sound that you are isolated at all.
I have noticed a trend that God is calling more and more believers to "strike out" and do things on their own outside
of the "church".
It is a fact that many of the institutionalised church leaders have no experience of life beyond the walls of their Bible
colleges and building.
They get born again, go to college are ordained and then whamo they become super-Christians.
I remember an incident from many moons ago where I attended a mega-church where a "normal member" of the church
addressed one of the newly ordained pastor's by his first name ... this guy flipped and said, "My name is Ps so and so
and not Jim or George whatever.
I got so turned off by his apparent lack of respect and his self inflated ego that I decided that if it ever happened to me I
would simply tell the guy that in future he should address me as Director and not by name either.
Getting back to the "not forsaking the gathering together of the brethren", it is unfortunate however, that many believers
don't attend "church" for a host of reasons that are not valid and then cheer on those who do likewise.
And I am not speaking against any one that has posted here as I don't know them personally.
Television is not church dear brothers and sisters, you need to join a fellowship with real people.
There is no such thing as a 007 Christian, James Born-again what influence or impact are you having in the real world ? ...
nothing.
You are not a monk, there is no such calling in the Bible, get back into fellowship with real people, you can change
someone's life.
I spent the last week on holiday studying Sun Tzu and the translation of his warfare strategies in the business world,
and one part of his success in warfare was accountability ... which led me to study accountability in the NT.
Jesus, spoke a parable on the "talents" and many a Christian is going to stand before Christ one day and give an
account for their use of the "talent" they were given.
And I have to say as much as a Christian might like to kick and scream, that they are going to have to answer for not
employing their talent/s by sitting at home.
by the "church".
BUT, that does not mean that God does not recognise it, rest assured that if it is successful God has in all probability
called it into being and placed his blessing upon it.
Did Peter and John begin their ministry from within the "institutionalised church" or not ? .... No.
When evangelists go out into countryside to villages etc., there are more often times than not no "church" in the vicinity
so does what they do count anything less and have no value in God's eyes ? ... of course not.
Take a look at the underground church in China, are they institutionalised ... No
Does this make what they're doing anything less than what we might do in a building ? ... No.
If this is you that has started a church within your realm or sphere of influence you can guarantee it that you have been
called as an evangelist.
Church is not a building, but you already know that.
Church is where two or three are gathered together in his name as Jesus said because He is in your midst.
All believers are part of the body of Christ not only those who go to the "building".
The call to "not forsake the gathering together of the brethren" in Hebrews 10:25 is a call to not become isolated.
It does not sound that you are isolated at all.
I have noticed a trend that God is calling more and more believers to "strike out" and do things on their own outside
of the "church".
It is a fact that many of the institutionalised church leaders have no experience of life beyond the walls of their Bible
colleges and building.
They get born again, go to college are ordained and then whamo they become super-Christians.
I remember an incident from many moons ago where I attended a mega-church where a "normal member" of the church
addressed one of the newly ordained pastor's by his first name ... this guy flipped and said, "My name is Ps so and so
and not Jim or George whatever.
I got so turned off by his apparent lack of respect and his self inflated ego that I decided that if it ever happened to me I
would simply tell the guy that in future he should address me as Director and not by name either.
Getting back to the "not forsaking the gathering together of the brethren", it is unfortunate however, that many believers
don't attend "church" for a host of reasons that are not valid and then cheer on those who do likewise.
And I am not speaking against any one that has posted here as I don't know them personally.
Television is not church dear brothers and sisters, you need to join a fellowship with real people.
There is no such thing as a 007 Christian, James Born-again what influence or impact are you having in the real world ? ...
nothing.
You are not a monk, there is no such calling in the Bible, get back into fellowship with real people, you can change
someone's life.
I spent the last week on holiday studying Sun Tzu and the translation of his warfare strategies in the business world,
and one part of his success in warfare was accountability ... which led me to study accountability in the NT.
Jesus, spoke a parable on the "talents" and many a Christian is going to stand before Christ one day and give an
account for their use of the "talent" they were given.
And I have to say as much as a Christian might like to kick and scream, that they are going to have to answer for not
employing their talent/s by sitting at home.
Church has never been a building. It has always been the people of God, all those "in Christ".This Vale Of Tears said:
Phm_1:2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:
Here, Paul is not referring to a building within a building, but rather the people of God inside a house.
Act_17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Here we understand that the God does not dwell in any structures made by men.
1Ti_3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
The "house of God" is the Church and the Church are those who are "in Christ".
1Co_14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
One of many more examples that can be found in the Word of God where "church" refers to the people of God. Here the people of God are coming together into one place. The people of God are the "building of God". Only in that respect could you ever have a building (of God) within a structure (made by human hands such as a house or other kind of building).
2Co_5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
And this "house, not made with hands, eternal in the heavens", you are part of right now, if you are "in Christ".
Jesus said in Matthew 18 where two or more are gathered in His name there He shall be also. It does not have to be in large congregation in a fancy sheep shed (church building).
FHII
Well-Known Member
- Apr 9, 2011
- 4,833
- 2,494
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
There are those who say, "Church is not a building, 'we' are the Church!" Well, that's true. There are also those who say that in the NT people didn't meet in Church Buildings, but in homes. Well, that is false. Sure, they sometimes did meet in homes, but they also met in "church buildings". Jesus, Paul and Peter all preached in synagogues. The place was holy, but sometimes the atmosphere and the people who were running it weren't. No need to condemn the building, but rather the people running it. Hold "church" in the home under false doctrine, it's no better. So just because you hold "church" in a home instead of a building designated as a "church" doesn't make it a place of God, nor the people in it "God's people".
There is a common thing about a Church. That is there is leadership. Yes, there are other things common, but there is always leadership. So if you meet in a home, that's fine. As long as it's not one person having a psalm, one having a prophecy, one having a dance, etc.... Christ's Church always has a leader, and ultimately, that leader is Christ, but Jesus leads through a man. One man. There may be serveral "one man" but in one Church, there is one man who's leading.
The building is not important. So go ahead and have your Church service in a home (they did in the Bible). But you can also have it in a designated building set aside for worship (they not only did it in the Bible, they did it in the NT). I do admit thankfully that you can have a spiritual gathering between 2 or 3 believers and it can be a great thing, but it ain't Church. It's a holy kiss, it's Jesus being in the midst, but it ain't Church.
If you are going to have Church, you need a leader and by that I mean a Pastor (preacher). You cannot be saved without a preacher or preaching and if you forsake the assembling of yourselves, Jesus' blood will not cover you.
There is a common thing about a Church. That is there is leadership. Yes, there are other things common, but there is always leadership. So if you meet in a home, that's fine. As long as it's not one person having a psalm, one having a prophecy, one having a dance, etc.... Christ's Church always has a leader, and ultimately, that leader is Christ, but Jesus leads through a man. One man. There may be serveral "one man" but in one Church, there is one man who's leading.
The building is not important. So go ahead and have your Church service in a home (they did in the Bible). But you can also have it in a designated building set aside for worship (they not only did it in the Bible, they did it in the NT). I do admit thankfully that you can have a spiritual gathering between 2 or 3 believers and it can be a great thing, but it ain't Church. It's a holy kiss, it's Jesus being in the midst, but it ain't Church.
If you are going to have Church, you need a leader and by that I mean a Pastor (preacher). You cannot be saved without a preacher or preaching and if you forsake the assembling of yourselves, Jesus' blood will not cover you.
Many people don't like going to Church because they read and understand their Bibles and the Holy Spirit has led them out of organizations that revolve around men or even the organization, itself. They discern that the organization is devoid of the Spirit and the love of Christ and it is a treacherous assembly. The meetings revolve around a man and not around Christ. They don't like "going to Church" because they don't find the emphasis on the centrality of Christ, which is very rare, today. So, they find like-minded people who want to follow Christ and they meet in their homes. There are 20 to 30 million people now meeting in homes because the Institutional Church has gone way off the path of righteousness and become irrelevant to them. They have learned together to be led by a living Christ, dwelling in the midst of them and it is exciting and fresh rather than listening to men who are many times building their own "kingdoms". They have found simplicity in being brothers and walking in love before each other. Even Jesus, calls us brethren.
Heb_2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
The church is built on Christ, the Chief Cornerstone.
Eph_2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph_2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph_2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
God's people are tired of the competition, (Church on every corner and no unity), greed (building million dollar structures), backbiting (over 12,000 church splits a year), sin (adultery, pedophilia, homosexuality). Even Jeremiah lamented that if he wished he could find a few like-minded men who were valiant for the truth.
Jer_9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
Jer_9:2 Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.
Jer_9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
Always remember that through the centuries it is the religious system, the earthly Jerusalem that has persecuted the True Church, heavenly Zion. And this will continue to the end. In many cases the religious system employs the world to do their dirty work.
But God, has had a remnant of faithful men and women in every generation. Men and women who will not compromise or commit spiritual adultery with the false religious system.
From Genesis through Revelation we see the true church and the false church. These are two threads that run together from the beginning to the end. Satan, the great counterfeiter of Christ has his church, too.
He has his false apostles.
2Co_11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And false brethren.
Gal_2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
And false prophets.
2Pe_2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Christians are absolutely correct to be asking the Lord for discernment regarding who they should be fellow-shipping with.
The church is people so don't ask me what organization is the true church as there is no organization that is the true church. The Lord knows those that are his
2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
If you don't depart from iniquity then you are not His and you won't recognize others that belong to Him. You will also be very comfortable in a worldly church.
Axehead
Heb_2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
The church is built on Christ, the Chief Cornerstone.
Eph_2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph_2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph_2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
God's people are tired of the competition, (Church on every corner and no unity), greed (building million dollar structures), backbiting (over 12,000 church splits a year), sin (adultery, pedophilia, homosexuality). Even Jeremiah lamented that if he wished he could find a few like-minded men who were valiant for the truth.
Jer_9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
Jer_9:2 Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.
Jer_9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
Always remember that through the centuries it is the religious system, the earthly Jerusalem that has persecuted the True Church, heavenly Zion. And this will continue to the end. In many cases the religious system employs the world to do their dirty work.
But God, has had a remnant of faithful men and women in every generation. Men and women who will not compromise or commit spiritual adultery with the false religious system.
From Genesis through Revelation we see the true church and the false church. These are two threads that run together from the beginning to the end. Satan, the great counterfeiter of Christ has his church, too.
He has his false apostles.
2Co_11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And false brethren.
Gal_2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
And false prophets.
2Pe_2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Christians are absolutely correct to be asking the Lord for discernment regarding who they should be fellow-shipping with.
The church is people so don't ask me what organization is the true church as there is no organization that is the true church. The Lord knows those that are his
2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
If you don't depart from iniquity then you are not His and you won't recognize others that belong to Him. You will also be very comfortable in a worldly church.
Axehead
Similar threads
