A point of contention has been raised by unbelievers as to why they would not believe. By the grace of God, He has enabled me to address it to them, but felt the need to share it here as for equipping the saints.You may hear this test of the sovereignty of God in different ways:How can there be a loving God if some poor starving child in Africa that never heard the Gospel and dies, gets sent to Hell?Let us look at the sovereignty of God now.Now, we all heard about the great commission.Matthew 28: 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.Now we go to God leading Paul as he served Him to the Gentiles:Acts 16: 6Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them. What happened? Wasn't there a commandment to teach all nations? Why would God deny the Gospel to Asia and Mysia at that time? Yet we see that someone was seeking Him in Macedonia as a dream was sent to Paul. Thus we see the sovereignty of God in that He knows those that are seeking Him and those that are not. This is why we have these scriptures to guide us.Matthew 7: 6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. God has made a promise in verse 7 & 8. Even though the man in Macedonia never heard it, God spoke it and it shall be done.Isaiah 55: 10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 12For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. 13Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.Sounds like the bringing of the Good News and its effect!Romans 10: 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.Not everyone that hear the Gospel will believe, but those that seek Him, shall, for the Gospel will come to them for them to hear and so that they may believe and be saved.John 3: 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.Thus God knows who are seeking Him and those that are not as whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, thus the Gospel shall be preached unto them. God is at work as He enables us to serve Him. Jesus knows His sheep and calls them by name, therefore the burden for serving Him is light as His yoke is easy. The results are on Him to accomplish as He enables us to serve Him.John 6: 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. That not only goes for Him working in our lives to help us live as his by faith, but Him enabling us to serve Him by faith also.Matthew 10: 17But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.So that is why we have this rest in Jesus so that when He appears, we are not bound nor committed to do anything down here for He shall finish it.. even in those left behind at the marriage supper of the bride and bridegroom.Matthew 11: 28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.Philippians 1: 6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:Hebrews 12: 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.So no matter if you are in the middle of witnessing, trust in God that when He takes you, He shall take over since it was never on you in the first place. It is on Him as He enables us to serve Him. When it is time to go, God means it.Thus we can rest in Jesus in doing His Work for what He is sent for.. to save those that seek God. Thus no one that never heard the Gospel, but died and went to Hell, God knew they would not have believed in the first place. But we can rest knowing that anyone.. no matter where... anyone that seeks God, will have the Gospel preached unto them as He has promised for all those that do seek Him. Amen.
Would Any That Seek God That Never Heard The Gospel Be Lost?
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Hi Letsgofishing!!Would Any That Seek God That Never Heard The Gospel Be Lost?
" knock and the door will be open unto you""seek and you shall find" I think the answer is no.
Amen.
By the grace of God, I know the answer is no.
" knock and the door will be open unto you""seek and you shall find" I think the answer is no.
Amen.
(Pariah;25031)
Hi Letsgofishing!!Would Any That Seek God That Never Heard The Gospel Be Lost?Amen. By the grace of God, I know the answer is no.
I agree. They will be judged on how they lived their lives.Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.14.For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.15.Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
However, it is written that the way to the Father is through the Son so what can this difference mean? God is just and not a respector of persons...nor does He lie. So, what will happen to the soul that has not heard the good word? We see from the Romans scripture that they will be judged on merit...on how they lived their lives but is that enough to achieve being with the Son? I don't know. Perhaps in the end of days, when God's elect allow the Holy Spirit to speak through them, it will be a time when all ears will somehow hear. We know that it will be as it was at Pentecost and everyone will understand what is being said in their own language. Whatever the answer is....God is in control and He will be fair. :shepard:............Whirlwind
Hi Letsgofishing!!Would Any That Seek God That Never Heard The Gospel Be Lost?Amen. By the grace of God, I know the answer is no.
I agree. They will be judged on how they lived their lives.Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.14.For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.15.Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
However, it is written that the way to the Father is through the Son so what can this difference mean? God is just and not a respector of persons...nor does He lie. So, what will happen to the soul that has not heard the good word? We see from the Romans scripture that they will be judged on merit...on how they lived their lives but is that enough to achieve being with the Son? I don't know. Perhaps in the end of days, when God's elect allow the Holy Spirit to speak through them, it will be a time when all ears will somehow hear. We know that it will be as it was at Pentecost and everyone will understand what is being said in their own language. Whatever the answer is....God is in control and He will be fair. :shepard:............WhirlwindThis is one of the reasons for the Millieum before the white throne Judgement which does happen until after the Millieum. All will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the Last trump and return of Christ. then all that have not heard or that are judged worthy get to be taught by the Elect and Christ himself then Satan is loosed again for a short time it is to test these who have just been taught same as you and I will be tested. God is fair all will have equal chance
(kriss;25051)
This is one of the reasons for the Millieum before the white throne Judgement which does happen until after the Millieum. All will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the Last trump and return of Christ. then all that have not heard or that are judged worthy get to be taught by the Elect and Christ himself then Satan is loosed again for a short time it is to test these who have just been taught same as you and I will be tested. God is fair all will have equal chance
Thank you Kriss. I agree that the millennium is a time of teaching. As I consider the different aspects of this and the fairness question....it boils down to this. It may seem unfair if some have never been taught and yet have led a truly righteous life to have to face the "second death." But, when I consider the first earth age then it all comes together.We are where we are in this age because of that first age. God is fair, God is just. ........Whirlwind
This is one of the reasons for the Millieum before the white throne Judgement which does happen until after the Millieum. All will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the Last trump and return of Christ. then all that have not heard or that are judged worthy get to be taught by the Elect and Christ himself then Satan is loosed again for a short time it is to test these who have just been taught same as you and I will be tested. God is fair all will have equal chance
Thank you Kriss. I agree that the millennium is a time of teaching. As I consider the different aspects of this and the fairness question....it boils down to this. It may seem unfair if some have never been taught and yet have led a truly righteous life to have to face the "second death." But, when I consider the first earth age then it all comes together.We are where we are in this age because of that first age. God is fair, God is just. ........Whirlwind
You are most welcome whirlwind here is scripture to back thisRev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Hi Whirlwind,
So, what will happen to the soul that has not heard the good word? We see from the Romans scripture that they will be judged on merit...on how they lived their lives but is that enough to achieve being with the Son? I don't know.
Actually, what you quoted had shown the answer:Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:I believe the reason why was this verse you quoted also:Romans 2: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.Mayhap this shall help clear things up: The world was already condemned to die apart from God thus we read this as God knowing those that are His for they seek Him.John 3: 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.Thus God knows whom are seeking Him and whom are not for those that do not prefer the darkness... rather than come to the light and God knows that, just as God knows those that are His for they seek Him.
Whatever the answer is....God is in control and He will be fair.
AMEN!!
So, what will happen to the soul that has not heard the good word? We see from the Romans scripture that they will be judged on merit...on how they lived their lives but is that enough to achieve being with the Son? I don't know.
Actually, what you quoted had shown the answer:Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:I believe the reason why was this verse you quoted also:Romans 2: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.Mayhap this shall help clear things up: The world was already condemned to die apart from God thus we read this as God knowing those that are His for they seek Him.John 3: 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.Thus God knows whom are seeking Him and whom are not for those that do not prefer the darkness... rather than come to the light and God knows that, just as God knows those that are His for they seek Him.
Whatever the answer is....God is in control and He will be fair.
AMEN!!
II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If our Father is willing that all should come to repentance, you can bet on everyone having a chance.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If our Father is willing that all should come to repentance, you can bet on everyone having a chance.
Hi Denver!!
II Peter 3:9Quote:The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If our Father is willing that all should come to repentance, you can bet on everyone having a chance.
AMEN!!
II Peter 3:9Quote:The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If our Father is willing that all should come to repentance, you can bet on everyone having a chance.
AMEN!!
(whirlwind;25053)
Thank you Kriss. I agree that the millennium is a time of teaching. As I consider the different aspects of this and the fairness question....it boils down to this. It may seem unfair if some have never been taught and yet have led a truly righteous life to have to face the "second death." But, when I consider the first earth age then it all comes together.We are where we are in this age because of that first age. God is fair, God is just. ........Whirlwind
So true whirlwind
Thank you Kriss. I agree that the millennium is a time of teaching. As I consider the different aspects of this and the fairness question....it boils down to this. It may seem unfair if some have never been taught and yet have led a truly righteous life to have to face the "second death." But, when I consider the first earth age then it all comes together.We are where we are in this age because of that first age. God is fair, God is just. ........Whirlwind
So true whirlwind
Mighty Bear
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- Oct 20, 2007
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"Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?" (James 2:5)"But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish." (Luke 16:25)http://christiansite.multiply.com/journal
(Denver;25066)
II Peter 3:9If our Father is willing that all should come to repentance, you can bet on everyone having a chance.
I agree with you, however it would appear that it would be impossible for one to come to repentance unless he or she were taught the laws of God and were brought to understanding regarding the repentance process.So where will those who never heard of Christ or his gospel be taught?When will they be taught?Who will teach them?Is there any scripture to support this theology?
II Peter 3:9If our Father is willing that all should come to repentance, you can bet on everyone having a chance.
I agree with you, however it would appear that it would be impossible for one to come to repentance unless he or she were taught the laws of God and were brought to understanding regarding the repentance process.So where will those who never heard of Christ or his gospel be taught?When will they be taught?Who will teach them?Is there any scripture to support this theology?
MickinEngland
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(Pariah;25016)
You may hear this test of the sovereignty of God in different ways:How can there be a loving God if some poor starving child in Africa that never heard the Gospel and dies, gets sent to Hell?
Children are born innocent and die innocent, so they don't go to hell..
As for adults who die without hearing the gospel, this verse indicates he's apt to show leniency -"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30)In fact after Helen Keller was struck deaf and blind by an illness when she was a baby, she later learnt to communicate as an adult by tapping peoples fingers, and when she was asked what it felt like to be told about Jesus for the first time, she replied "I always knew he was there"The moral? - Jesus is in our hearts whether or not we've heard the gospel..
You may hear this test of the sovereignty of God in different ways:How can there be a loving God if some poor starving child in Africa that never heard the Gospel and dies, gets sent to Hell?
Children are born innocent and die innocent, so they don't go to hell..
MickinEnglund,Thanks for your response, but that does not answer my questions. I agreee that God has commanded all men everywhere to repent, but how could they repent unless they knew the laws of God? If one were in ignorance, then it would be obvious that that individual would have no clue what to do to obtain repentance.
MickinEngland
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(Job one;33961)
MickinEnglund,Thanks for your response, but that does not answer my questions. I agreee that God has commanded all men everywhere to repent, but how could they repent unless they knew the laws of God? If one were in ignorance, then it would be obvious that that individual would have no clue what to do to obtain repentance.
The laws are written in our hearts from birth and can be accessed with or without the written word..
Jesus is a 'password' that makes access easier..
MickinEnglund,Thanks for your response, but that does not answer my questions. I agreee that God has commanded all men everywhere to repent, but how could they repent unless they knew the laws of God? If one were in ignorance, then it would be obvious that that individual would have no clue what to do to obtain repentance.
The laws are written in our hearts from birth and can be accessed with or without the written word..
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: Mat 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Thanks Mick, you beat me too it.Jesus is the Light to the WHOLE world. He is God's Word to the WHOLE world. Word is another way of saying knowledge, the knowledge of God. Understanding, knowing God can only come from His Word. But that does not mean human logic and reason is incapable on it's own of achieving some understanding of His Word, even without hearing the preaching of the Gospel. Romans 1 and 2 make this point. Knowing, understanding God's Word, even if only in some limited and incomplete sense is still knowing Jesus. So in the same way we are, they too could be saved by knowing Jesus.Such a person is seeking God and Matthew tells us God can be found by someone seeking. And the promise of Matthew 5 to pure in heart cannot only mean Christians. Surely someone living in the Americas in the first millennium had a pure heart. God is the judge and He judges are hearts, not our theology or denomination. Getting to Heaven is not a pass/fail theology test.
Hi Pariah,I picked out one statement in your long Post that I find to be a problem worth focusing on.First of all, many of the references you included are correct in themselves. But you know, if one point of your theology is unbiblical that throws everything off balance for me.People who have not heard the Gospel are Not seeking for God on their own. There is no such thing as an unregenerated person who seeks for God.Romans 3:10-12, "as it is written, None is righteous, no, not one;no one understands; no one seeks for God.All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;no one does good,not even one."As you see from God's word, without God's intervention (choosing) there are no people on earth who are seeking God because they are His natural enemies and see Him as an enemy, too.waynemlj
Hi Job One,The Scripture that comes to mind on this topic is John 14:6, "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.' "Only through belief in Jesus can one be saved, as Jesus clearly says in the above Scripture.And the reference earlier somewhere to 2 Peter 3:9, ". . . not wishing that any should perish . . . " refers to the elect only.1 Peter 1 and 2 Peter 1 show us that Peter's two epistles were written to the elect, not to the world at large.waynemlj
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