The Administration Of Tongues

Butch5 said:

Since we're talking about context let's note that the "we" is Paul and the Corinthians, not you and I. His statement about seeing face to face says nothing about seeing Jesus. He contrasts two things, the present where he sees things through a class darkly (In other words things aren't clear) with seeing someone face to face. When you see someone face to face it is clear. Then he says now I know in part but then (when the maturity comes) I will have full knowledge. In both of these he speaks of a now and then. In the first example he spoke of being a child and growing to maturity.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. (1 Cor. 13:11 KJV)

I submit that the next two sentences which speak of a now and then are tied to this statement of being a child and maturing to man. The now is as a child and the then is as a man. Now as a child we see through a glass darkly and now as child I know. But then, as a man I will see face to face. But then, I will have full knowledge. The whole section is speaking of a process of mating

That right there tells us that he isn't referring to the coming of Christ. Jesus said He would come as thief in the night. That's a quick event not a process of growing from a child to a man. Additionally, he said that after, prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, ceased, Faith, hope, and love would remain. Paul said that faith is,

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb. 11:1 KJV)

When Jesus returns He will be seen so faith won't be needed. likewise he said that hope that is seen isn't hope.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (Rom. 8:24-25 KJV)

So, when Jesus returns we won't need faith and hope, yet Paul said that after prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, ceased, faith, and hope would continue. This would put the coming of the perfect, the maturity, before the return of Christ.

He says that prophecy and knowledge will cease when the perfect (maturity) comes and the word cease is in the passive voice. That means something will cause them to cease. That obviously would be the coming of the maturity. However, when he says that tongues will cease he uses a middle voice verb for cease. This means that there isn't something that will make tongues cease but rather tongues will cease of its own accord. Since Isaiah tells us that tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel of the judgment that was coming. Once that judgment came the purpose of tongues would have fulfilled and thus not be necessary any longer.

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Butch5 said:

Yeah, he's addressing the Corinthians.

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Wormwood said:

Oz,

I agree that 1 Cor. 13 is likely not referring to the ceasing of tongues and so forth. However, I think a couple of things are clear: First, various gifts were used for very specific purposes. The Apostles had incredible power from God to heal people with their shadows or with cloth they had touched. They were able to raise the dead and survive poisonous snake bites. Now, I doubt you would argue that there are people walking around today who are healing people with their shadows and raising the dead. Can God still raise the dead? Yes. Are these miraculous gifts being displayed in this manner today? No. The Word of God was being confirmed by the Apostles and so these gifts had a purpose. So, I think it is safe to say that certain gifts had specific purposes that may not be needed or utilized today.

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focusing on the fruitfulness that anyone who has faith in Jesus (ho pisteuon eis eme - an expression that embraces all believers, not just the apostles) will enjoy. The promise is staggering: the person with such faith, Jesus says, will do what I have been doing. Indeed, he will do even greater things than these - not because he is greater, but because I am going to the Father.
The things (erga, 'works', cf. v. 11) Jesus has been doing, and the greater things that follow, cannot legitimately be restricted to deeds of humility (13:15) or acts of love (13:34-35), still less to proclamation of Jesus' 'words' (v. 10). Jesus' 'works may include more than his miracles; they never exclude them. But even so, greater works is not a transparent expression.... (Carson 1991:495).

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Wormwood said:

Oz,

In sum, I simply do not see anything in the NT that suggests that "tongues" is anything other than actual human languages that were given in the form of miraculous acts of praise amongst those who had never studied or learned the language in which they were praising God.

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I'll respond to just the first paragraph of your post. Yes, the early church was given incredible power to heal. Are the miracles of healing being displayed around the world today, including the raising of the dead? You say, No! Have you been to every culture in the world where a Christian church has been planted to check this out? I doubt it. Therefore, your statement, 'Are these miraculous gifts being displayed in this manner today? No. The Word of God was being confirmed by the Apostles and so these gifts had a purpose. So, I think it is safe to say that certain gifts had specific purposes that may not be needed or utilized today', does not have a ring of truth to it because you will not have checked out the whole world of believers and the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

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This verse refers to all believers, 'whoever believes'. What will they do?
(1) 'The works that I do' - the works that Jesus did;
(2) 'And greater works than these will he do'.

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Are you prepared to tell us that all of the miraculous healings that Bramlett records in this section are lies and that they never happened? Are you prepared to follow up these examples to demonstrate that they are fake?

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One of the great tragedies of the contemporary church is that it has moved from every-member ministry potential to a select-few ministry. I long for the day when I Cor 14:26 (NIV) happens in more and more church gatherings: 'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up'.

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Wormwood said:

Oz, thank you for your response. Just for clarification, I am not saying miracles do not happen today. I am saying the "gift of miracles" is likely not in operation (at least not to the degree we see with Paul and the Apostles). I think if there was someone walking around healing hundreds and thousands of people from incurable diseases with his shadow or calling people to walk out of their graves, striking people blind with a word and having personal visions and interactions with Jesus, then we would all likely hear about it. Appealing to some distant village where someone may have such remarkable powers but we just don't know about it is not very convincing to me. It's like saying there could have been many people like Moses performing seas to split and turning the Nile into blood, but we just don't have record of it. I just don't think these things were common practice and we should not expect them to be common today. Again, some gifts served a specific purpose. The Israelites did not expect the Red Sea to be split yearly to confirm God's presence and deliverance of Israel. Nor do I think we should expect Pentecost or miraculous powers to take place regularly to confirm what God has already established.

I appreciate DA Carson, and I don't think he is arguing that we have modern day Apostles walking around with those gifts. I think the "greater things" can refer to miracles (again, I think the intervention of a miracle to a prayer or faith is one thing...the gift of performing miracles regularly is quite another). However, I think it most likely refers to the fact that Christians have the power to proclaim forgiveness of sins, and usher the Holy Spirit into the lives of those who respond by faith. Pentecost occurred after Jesus' earthly ministry, so while his "greater things" does not exclude the acts of miraculous, I think there are greater things than physical miracles taking place when someone receives the Gospel and is baptized into the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and reception of the Holy Spirit.

My aim is not to discount anyone's personal experiences. I just think 1) that the Apostles did seem to do some miraculous things that even exceeded some of what Christ did (perhaps, at least, in regularity) and 2) that its hard to say someone could do "greater things" than Jesus by way or miracles since its pretty hard to do more than raise the dead, give sight to the blind, make the lame walk and turn a loaf of Wonder Bread into an entire supermarket of bread loaves which suggests, 3) that these "greater things" are likely not referring to the mere power of the individual to do supernatural feats, but to accomplish things on a spiritual dimension that Christ never accomplished. Watching a person freed from sin due to the blood of Christ, filled with the eternal God via the Spirit and empowered to live a transformed life by the power of the resurrection is likely the "greater things" that are in the primary view here.

I think Acts confirms this as we do not see many "miracle workers" among the common people. It seems the miracles were done predominately by the Apostles (cf. Acts 2:43; Acts 4:33). Miracles took place when congregations prayed, but we just don't see "miracle working" as a regular teaching amongst the people in the congregation in the NT.

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I am saying the "gift of miracles" is likely not in operation (at least not to the degree we see with Paul and the Apostles). I think if there was someone walking around healing hundreds and thousands of people from incurable diseases with his shadow or calling people to walk out of their graves, striking people blind with a word and having personal visions and interactions with Jesus, then we would all likely hear about it.

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I appreciate DA Carson, and I don't think he is arguing that we have modern day Apostles walking around with those gifts. I think the "greater things" can refer to miracles (again, I think the intervention of a miracle to a prayer or faith is one thing...the gift of performing miracles regularly is quite another).

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• 'is not a transparent expression. It cannot simply mean more works - i.e. the church will do more things then Jesus did, since it embraces so many people over such a long period of time'. There were other Greek ways of saying that.
• 'Nor can greater works mean "more spectacular" or "more supernatural" works: it is hard to imagine works that are more spectacular or supernatural than the raising of Lazarus from the dead, the multiplication of bread and turning of water into wine';
• 'Their works become greater precisely because of the new order that has come about subsequent on his going to the Father ... displays of resurrection and judgment (cf. 5:17, 24-26)' (Carson 1991:495-496).

I think Acts confirms this as we do not see many "miracle workers" among the common people. It seems the miracles were done predominately by the Apostles (cf. Acts 2:43; Acts 4:33).

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3 For [SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]I delivered to you [SIZE=66%]1[/SIZE]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died [SIZE=66%]b[/SIZE]for our sins [SIZE=66%]c[/SIZE]according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was [SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]raised on the third day [SIZE=66%]b[/SIZE]according to the Scriptures,
5 and that [SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]He appeared to [SIZE=66%]b[/SIZE]Cephas, then [SIZE=66%]c[/SIZE]to the twelve.
6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some [SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]have fallen asleep;
7 then He appeared to [SIZE=66%]1[/SIZE][SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]James, then to [SIZE=66%]b[/SIZE]all the apostles;
8 and last of all, as [SIZE=66%]1[/SIZE]to one untimely born, [SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]He appeared to me also.
9 For I am [SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]the least of the apostles, [SIZE=66%]1[/SIZE]and not fit to be called an apostle, because I [SIZE=66%]b[/SIZE]persecuted the church of God.

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Wormwood said:

While I disagree with you on tongues, I agree with your concerns about the contemporary church. Everyone has a gift from the Holy Spirit and the church is not a place for "professionals" only. All people should contribute with the gifts they have been given. If not, then the church is not meeting its potential..and leaders are there to assist people in stepping out in faith and using their gifts, not in stifling their gifts by making the gatherings all about them and their gifts.

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If that were happening in the Central African Republic or in Myanmar, I doubt that you or I would be hearing about it. Who are you and I to announce that the 'gift of miracles' is not in operation? I find that to be presumptuous.

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'Their works become greater precisely because of the new order that has come about subsequent on his going to the Father ... displays of resurrection and judgment (cf. 5:17, 24-26)' (Carson 1991:495-496).

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Remember that before Jesus mentioned the 'greater works', he said the unbelievable in our cessationist day and age, 'Whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do' (John 14;12 ESV) and that DOES include the miracles of Jesus.

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But the 'we do not seem many "miracle workers" among the common people' is contrary to what Jesus promised in John 14:12 (ESV). you are reluctant to admit the continuing gift of apostles, but Paul wasn't afraid to teach the continuing need of such. We are happy to affirm the gifts of evangelists, pastors and teachers, but apostles are definitely not for today.

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Paul didn't read it that way. He taught the Ephesians (and us, by application), 'And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes' (Eph 4:11-14 ESV). When will we need these gifts for these purposes? From Jesus time until kingdom come. We need them until the Eschaton. Let's not forget that in the time of Jesus and the early church there were more apostles than the 12. See 1 Cor 12:28 (ESV).

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“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.” (1 Corinthians 15:3–10, ESV)

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Oh, Mr. Wormwood, so you mean you've not seen a congregation where the gifts of working of miracles is in consistent manifestation. Well, I do. There are a number of them in my Country-Nigeria. Just an example : "Synagogue Church of All Nations". For more details, check out emmanuel.tv. If you watch the streaming, I'm sure you're going to see countless working of miracles in operation.

I don't fellowship there. But I believe by the grace of God, the spirit of God will start manifesting those gifts in the same magnitude, in my own ministry, in the process of time and spiritual maturity.

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OzSpen said:

Butch,

The context is for tongues ceasing, based on I Cor 13:12 (ESV), 'For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known' (emphasis added).

The 'now' addresses the Corinthian's contemporary existence and the contrast is with 'then'. The 'now' involves only knowing partially, but the 'then' is when I (and you) and the Corinthians 'shall know fully' just as 'I have been fully known'.

When will the Corinthians and I know fully just as we are fully known? That will be in the Eschaton - at the second coming of Jesus.

I am not convinced the whole process is talking of maturing, but that, based on v 11, Paul is not talking about childishness and then growing up by maturing. He is allowing v. 12 to interpret the meaning of v. 11. But v. 12 confirms what v. 11 is all about. He's telling us that there will come a time when the gifts will pass away and that is when the other comes. When the Corinthians and all believers will know fully in the Eschaton.

You want the 'we' to refer to Paul and the Corinthians only. Not so. Are you wanting to tell me that the other sections of 1 Cor apply only to Paul and the Corinthians? Is the 'love' of 1 Cor 13 only to apply to Paul and the Corinthians and nobody else? If 'love never ends' (1 Cor 13:8), it is a travesty of exegesis to make that apply only to Paul and the Corinthians. What's the point of having 1 Cor 13 in the Bible if it is to apply only to Paul and the Corinthians and not to apply to all Christians?

Oz,

Paul doesn't say all Christians If we're going to talk about exegesis let's do it correctly. Paul also says to the Corinthians, "you are carnal" would you that apply to all Christians? He says to them, "you are puffed up" prideful, would you apply that to all Christians? He tells them they are not spiritual, would you would you apply that to all Christians. We can't just take a broad brush and say everything written to Christians applies to every Christian.

You say ever Christian will "fully know" when Christ returns, what will they fully know? When

The word that translated perfect means maturity. It seems that along with his example of growing from a child to a man is pretty clear that he is referring to a process. He writes of growing knowing in part and prophesying in Part, which he compares to being a child. Then he says when the maturity comes his prophecy and knowledge will be complete and he will put away childish things. He intimates that they are childish things that would be put away once the maturity was come. The question becomes, what is the maturity? What is the subject of the prophecy and knowledge? it was the Gospel. In Isaiah the message was this is the rest. What did Jesus say? ' Come all you who labor and I will give you rest.' Well, the Gospel messsage did reach a point of completion or maturity. Jude told his readers to contend for the faith that was "Once" handed down to the saints.

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emekrus said:

Oz,

Thanks for your response....


I am not sure what your stance is on this matter, but most Christians I have discussed this issue with want to make the book of Acts normative for daily Christian life. Also, they want to claim that 1 Cor. where everyone had these gifts in a local church should be the experience of churches today. Paul teaches that the purpose of these gifts was to build up the body (I'm assuming local body since Paul was writing to Christians in Corinth). So, it doesn't make sense to me to say that the gifts of miracles, wonders, signs and so forth exist, but its probably happening in remote places and not in our local bodies today. If the purpose of these gifts was to build up the local body, why wouldn't we see it regularly? If you claim that its rare because its functional, then you are making the same argument I am making. I never said it was impossible for someone to have the gift of miracles. I said it was unlikely. We don't see it in our churches today with any real regularity (if at all). Thus, it likely has a specific purpose. In my mind, it seems likely that the purpose was to confirm the early message just as God confirmed Moses to be his messenger with signs and wonders but did not continue those same types of signs and wonders year after year to confirm a message that was already established before Israel. Make sense?




Oh, Mr. Wormwood, so you mean you've not seen a congregation where the gifts of working of miracles is in consistent manifestation. Well, I do. There are a number of them in my Country-Nigeria. Just an example : "Synagogue Church of All Nations". For more details, check out emmanuel.tv. If you watch the streaming, I'm sure you're going to see countless working of miracles in operation.

I don't fellowship there. But I believe by the grace of God, the spirit of God will start manifesting those gifts in the same magnitude, in my own ministry, in the process of time and spiritual maturity.

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Butch5 said:

The word that translated perfect means maturity. It seems that along with his example of growing from a child to a man is pretty clear that he is referring to a process.

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Wormwood said:

Maybe there are some great miracles taking place in Nigeria, I wouldn't try to discount that. I just don't think it has anything to do with spiritual maturity or expecting/not expecting miracles. Corinth was perhaps the most carnal church one could imagine in the NT, and they had all the gifts (according to Paul). The fruit of the Spirit is a sign of spiritual maturity, not tongues or miracles. IMO

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OzSpen said:

Butch,

That's your assertion. You have not provided the exegesis. Now please tell us the meaning of hotan de elthe to teleion to ek merous katargethesetai (1 Cor 13:10 Greek NT).

Oz

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Butch5 said:

No, it's not my assertion. However, you didn't answer my question. When Paul calls the Corinthians carnal would apply that to all Christians? What about when he says they are not all spiritual, does that apply to all Christians?

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Butch5 said:

No, it's not my assertion. However, you didn't answer my question. When Paul calls the Corinthians carnal would apply that to all Christians? What about when he says they are not all spiritual, does that apply to all Christians?

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